What I'm hoping is that the Tanker taunt gets powered up a little bit as a result of this change. Now that there are more possibilities for aggro management, the single-target ranged Taunt is much less powerful by comparison, and I think it deserves to get a bit more super-powered. A minor damage (brawl equivalent or so) but very intimidating ranged aggro-drawing attack based on the secondary set would be a lot of fun, and still fulfill the same sort of purpose.
(Yeah, I'll probably keep pushing this until the day I can taunt someone by throwing a car at them 
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First of all, thank you, thank you, thank you. You have re-affirmed my faith in this game (I have to admit it did waiver a litte for a few weeks). The changes all look extremely good, well fitting the role of a Comic Book Tanker.
To speak to those worried about us usurping the role of "boss killer" from the scrappers. Well, it has been said before, that no group should need any specific AT. That means that each AT should be able to in some way sub for 1 or more other ATs. Of course not as effectively, but none-the-less, we will be able to adequetly step into that role now, as can most blasters.
Lastly, this is so cool, the new Tankers Only SG on Infinity is going to rock even more than before once these changes come into play. So far we have been having a ball (still in our early teens for the most part) just steamroling over mobs. Of course, like any group of characters we've hit some challenges (Vahz), but we Rock ON! If any are intrested, all tankers are welcome to join. We are here to have fun, and enjoy this wonderfull game. (check sig for info, or the "tankers only" thread here in this forum).
*waiting impatiently for these upcoming changes* 
how will the damage buff work in relation to the 400% damage bonus cap through the combination of enhancements and powers (like fulcrum shift)?
the problem comes to mind for me if you have an invulnerabilty tank that was built more for attacking. and they've built themselves in such a way to maximize the number of slots devoted to damage enhancements. so you use invincible to raise your accuracy and also skip adding endurance cost reduction. from what i've herad invincible is a 10% accuarcy bonus per mob, and we already start with a 75% chance to hit, requiring only 2 mobs to cap our chance to hit against a minion (90%... i hope i got all this mathy stuff right). in this case hitting the 400% cap is not too difficult, when you start to add things like fulcrum shift or possible the proposed cumulative tanker damage enhancement.
just a thought to be looked over in the testing.
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To speak to those worried about us usurping the role of "boss killer" from the scrappers. Well, it has been said before, that no group should need any specific AT. That means that each AT should be able to in some way sub for 1 or more other ATs. Of course not as effectively, but none-the-less, we will be able to adequetly step into that role now, as can most blasters.
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Tankers can already fill that role more then well enuff. Tankers single target attacks do about as much as Scrappers do. The upside for Scrappers realy is the crits against bosses. But if the bonus from this change is larger then the 15% crit chance against a boss, then more then just boss killing will be a problem.
First let me say that I love these changes.
Having medium and even minor(jab) damaging attacks will actually make sense now, since its normal damage will be when the tanker is holding back and it gets a buff in damage as the tanker starts to let loose his real potential (i.e. hulk getting madder, Superman pouring it on against Doomsday).
As far as the PBAoE taunt (AoE on melee is basically pbaoe) that will be very helpful for tankers without invincibility and will mean that I can save my Provoke (since I use invinc) to keep ranged groups on me. I think the area of the taunt should be bigger than Invincibility or Provoke, to make up for the redundancy of having these powers.
I have to agree with everyone else that the Dev response to tanks have been very inspiring. I see these changes as a way to increase the soloability of tanks as a whole as well as make them more viable in groups (since they have the potential to actually do damage instead of sit around spamming provoke).
Thanks a lot for keeping us updated on what you plan on doing with the tanker AT.
Here was an interesting quote from the first post:
"Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly."
Are there really that many people who play CoH that want to be the traditional meat shield ala EQ?
IMO, I think they should completely forget about that "version" of Tanker. That being said I like what is being proposed.
If a tanker keeps getting more powerful as the fight goes on what ends the fight? I mean, in theory couldn't someone just keep herding enemies to the tanker who would take the enemies down with ever increasing ease?
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To speak to those worried about us usurping the role of "boss killer" from the scrappers. Well, it has been said before, that no group should need any specific AT. That means that each AT should be able to in some way sub for 1 or more other ATs. Of course not as effectively, but none-the-less, we will be able to adequetly step into that role now, as can most blasters.
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Tankers can already fill that role more then well enuff. Tankers single target attacks do about as much as Scrappers do. The upside for Scrappers realy is the crits against bosses. But if the bonus from this change is larger then the 15% crit chance against a boss, then more then just boss killing will be a problem.
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Znail, that is flat out untrue. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not call it a lie this time, but there is simply no comparison between scrapper and tanker melee attack lines, single target or otherwise, unless you completely ignore 3/4 of the elements involved (damage, recharge, end cost, number of attacks).
Sorry if this has been asked already, but wouldn't the dmg buff be unfair for invuln tankers who use invincability or the tanker set that has a neg acc bonus for one of its powers. I guess the simple answer would be dont use the power that gives u an acc debuff, and taking away the acc buff from invinc, just wondering what the official plan is.
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Znail, that is flat out untrue. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not call it a lie this time, but there is simply no comparison between scrapper and tanker melee attack lines, single target or otherwise, unless you completely ignore 3/4 of the elements involved (damage, recharge, end cost, number of attacks).
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Recharge doesnt matter unless you have run out of attacks to use against a single boss. Endurance cost doesnt matter either unless you run out of endurance against a single boss. Neither of those conditions happen at higher levels. I have no idea what you mean by 'number of attacks'.
As much as I like the idea of the increased damage over time, if it is tied to 'landing blows' it will go further toward removing us from the comic-book Tanker.
We'll be rewarded for having Hasten and numerous quick attacks with short animations. Subsequently, there'll be even more reason to get Stamina.
"And there was much rejoicing."
Sounds good overall. As a few people have pointed out, battle duration is something that requires attention, but you seem to have some idea about resolving that, so Im anxious to see how it turns out.
I wanted to make a comment about this point you made:
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1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
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Since I started playing this game, one thing has always puzzled me about the aggro system (or, more accurately the AI) is that it doesnt seem to respond properly to the heroes.
When I look at the X-Men, I can see the individual ATs present in the game. Cyclops is the blaster, Storm is the Controller, Colossus is the tanker and so on. A compelling argument can be made that Wolverine is really a tanker, but in the context of CoH, hes got to be a scrapper (regen?).
After hearing so many stories about how scrappers can tank, I began comparing Wolverine to scrappers in CoH and that led to some questions about aggro, fear and being the boss killer.
It seemed to me, that scrappers drawing aggro was inconsistent with what I had read in my X-Men comics for years. Wolverine was flat out frightening to anyone except a) villains that had never seen him before or b) arch-villains that were powerful enough to face him.
Think about it, as a Magneto minion, who would you rather face, Colossus or Wolverine? Colossus might throw you through a wall or bust a few bones, but Wolverine will disembowel you. Injury or death? Bad guys ran from or avoided Wolverine and that behavior is fairly consistent throughout the X-Men series. Youll find some exceptions, but the rule is plainly clear if you review the series.
So heres the question: What if scrapper attacks instilled fear into mobs instead of drawing aggro?
Im NOT suggesting that mobs run away from scrappers, just that they not try to melee them unless thats the only thing they do (like a Freak Smasher). Once the scrapper engages a mob, the mob stands and fights. All others try to move away and fire with their ranged weapons. If the scrapper leaves, they follow but from a distance. When the scrapper stops, they attempt to encircle from their maximum range.
The range would of course make it difficult to hold any aggro for blasters. As soon as they approach, the mobs turn to fight them as though the scrapper isnt even there.
Scrappers can still be the boss killers because higher cons and AVs wont be affected.
No one gets nerfed. In fact, you could give scrappers greater damage capability to compensate for the lost DPS traveling from one mob to another. There would be no reason to change invulnerability or regen, so the defenses are still there.
Tankers become second to none at managing large groups, which is all most of us want anyway. Not to be confused with herding, which I hate, but being able to keep the mobs focused on us.
With what was said here about drawing more aggro with more hits, made this idea seem all the more feasible and fair for everyone.
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So, now Hasten will become as pervasive for Tankers as it is for Scrappers.
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I hardly know any scrappers that have Hasten. It's simply not needed (all my attacks cycle (with no attack rates) so fast, I never don't have an attack ready...) - Most scrappers I know are like that... (Defenders I see taking it a lot, so they can heal faster...)
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Im NOT suggesting that mobs run away from scrappers, just that they not try to melee them unless thats the only thing they do (like a Freak Smasher). Once the scrapper engages a mob, the mob stands and fights. All others try to move away and fire with their ranged weapons. If the scrapper leaves, they follow but from a distance. When the scrapper stops, they attempt to encircle from their maximum range.
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This would make being rooted with Unyielding Stance more anoying then it is right now. It would also make it very hard to hit anyone with PBAE as a Scrapper. It would take alot to compensate for those things.
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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
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So... sort of like the claw scrapper's Follow-Up power effect, but added to each attack, and stackable? This will make +ACC enhancements, if so, VERY VERY VERY popular with tanks.
By the way, tell that 45th claw scrapper fellow I said hello and thank you again for the save in Steel Canyon.
A revision of my earlier numbers assuming it takes 3 damage SOs to reach the first damage listed and there are no other damage enchancers in play:
0. (10) 100 / 100
2. (89) 50 / 74
4. (132) 50 / 78
6. (170) 30 / 48
8. (177) 30 / 49
10. (183) 30 / 49
12. (188) 30 / 49
14. (192) 50 / 82
16. (222) 50 / 84
18. (248) 30 / 51
20. (242) 30 / 51
22. (237) 30 / 51
24. (233) 30 / 51
26. (230) 100 / 168
28. (322) 50 / 88
30. (332) 50 / 88
In this version of rage the tankers damage increases by 4 and 2/3 SOs at it's highest point (the attack on second thirty). This means that a tanker should be able to cap out their damage with 4 damage SOs less in an extended fight which is a good thing since it still doesn't put them above a scrappers melee potential (unless AoE attacks are allowed to build rage which is a bad idea for this system). This leaves room for tankers to slot for endurance, recharge, and accuracy.
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2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
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This actually isn't the entirety of the Tanker/Scrapper issue. The other thing that makes Scrappers better than Tankers is full mobile status resistance. Please remember this. They get to have fun in this fast-paced combat, running around and fighting things, we have to stand in one spot (Stone, Invuln), or be vulnerable to a particular status effect (Ice, Fire).
This isn't fun in such a fast paced game, and slowing the game down isn't something anyone would want as a solution.
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1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
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I think this proves that Statesman listens to us. This is, hands down, the best idea ever put forward for fixing the Provoke issue, and it was put forward by people on the forums.
I can FINALLY drop Provoke now. Thank you SO MUCH.
This will make the best cross of the comic book tanker feel with the MMO Meatshield role.
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2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
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This sounds really cool. I personally am pretty happy with my damage after the KO changes, but after running numbers, we still do less than 75% Scrapper damage, so I'm happy to see this.
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but I thought you'd like to know at least where we're going, even though we don't know when we'll get there.
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Again, thank you.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
I like it, States. Sounds good so far! I do have a question, though and it may have already been asked in this thread so bear with me:
Do you think this will make Invuln tankers the FoTM since Invicibility buffs our Acc as well as Def and will not only be as uber-duber as it already is but will pretty much ensure that we'll probably have the best chance of getting the high dmg attack chains? LOL You think mob herding is bad now? LOL Not that I mind mob herding. :P
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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets):
1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly.
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.
So - here's the solution we're going to try internally. We went through a ton of possible solutions, and we weighed each one against how well they answered the three points above as well as how long it would take to get done.
1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....
2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
Of course, the thought in your minds must be....WHEN?...I'm afraid I don't know. First, we need some code for this. Then we've got to test it thoroughly. Finally, it'll go on the Test Server for awhile to gather data and impressions. This is going to take some time; but I thought you'd like to know at least where we're going, even though we don't know when we'll get there.
Feel free to comment!
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My comments (in order of my own comments, not addressing Statesman's points in some order):
1.) Huzzah!
2.) Well, once again, you've surprised me. Novel design, definitely, and it shows that you guys are thinking outside the box, even in terms of how this game is designed initially. Up until this change, the game is basicaly, hit a mob, do identical damage if you hit (adjusted for level). But, if you hit even cons with a -40, every even con will be a -40 if you hit for all eternity.
Until the tanker change. And I LIKE it. Overall, anyway. Yes, in comics, tankers generally hold back some. The Thing doesn't yell "It's clobberin' time!" until it really IS clobberin' time. Unti then, he'll pound away, but not at full power.
Only thing I'd suggest here is that the damage scale based on the target as well. IE: when the tanker takes on minions, he starts relatively low on his damage scale, and gradually slides up as the battle drags on. If he takes on a boss or an LT, though, his starting point on the scale should be higher, however.
For example. If Colossus is going up against random Hellfire Club guards, he's not going to be hitting at full power at the start. He'll hold back a little. But in a different battle against, say, the Reavers and the White King, his starting punches are going to be hitting a lot harder, due to the higher threat.
That's what I'd suggest here.
3.) Thanks for taking this issue seriously. It IS a big problem, given the nature of the game, and it reaffirms my faith in the dev team to see that you guys GET it that this game is DIFFERENT from every other MMO out there, and that it SHOULD stay different.
HOLY [censored]!!!! i gotta give u props on this one statesman
I just like to say I will make it my first priority to be there as soon as it goes to test server. I would very much put up Big Green for any experiements with the idea you have in mind Statesman. Kudos to you for addressing the tanker issues.
Excellent ideas. Several weaknesses.
Damage increasing over time doesn't really help solo tanker. Perhaps this isn't one of your goals anyway.
There was a reason provoke was set to long delay. Do the new taunt aspects of tankers powers recreate that same breakage?
I think we still need a context in which the tanker's powers are noticably valuable. I'm still not sure I'd want a tanker in my group.
You know what I just thought of? Once, at least once, theres going to be one group out there somewhere, pounding away at bad guys. And they're gonna get into one particular fight that last longer then the others. And maybe, just maybe, the scrapper or blasrer or whoever is gonna see something out of the corner of his eye. Slowly, one by one each team-mate is gonna take notice as they back off and just watch the rampaging tank go to town.
And I think at that moment, I just might shed a tear.
KUDOS Statesmen and all that are involved with this decision! This is the most awesomest thing I've seen all day. (yes I had the invent a new word just for this occasion)
Wow. Just...wow. Statesman, you have just scored a one year subscription from yours truly. Can I make the check out to you? What is it, S-T-A-T-E......?