Warspite

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If I had any HOs I'd bet them all on Kublai. I've rescued States so many times from Tyrant... I bet he has an "I surrender" bind.

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Ooooh harsh!

But funny

Just wanted to say that Snipe-Fu is a damn fine En blaster and you would be hard pressed to find a better person to write this guide. I recently teamed with him (second time, but the first was a loooong time ago) after sending out a broadcast request for help to take down a +1 Nemesis (the AV) and he just said 'As long as you keep agro I'll kill him' - well, I did, and he did, extremely quickly. Nice to see someone that knows what they are doing at work (working with a non-provoking tanker can tax an En blaster), and writing a guide like this.

Warspite
Lv 44 Inv/SS

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3. Tankers have top priority post Update 3 to get their increased mob control abilities. I'd love to tie this to some twinks to Controllers - so that both have a good role in mob management - but I can't make any promises about that in particular.

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Seriously - too late. You flat out promised this immediately after Update 2, now we have to wait 6-8 weeks until Update 3 goes live, plus probably 3-4 weeks of fixing bugs that go live with all the new Epic level stuff. I can accept a lot of things, but broken promises really piss me off.

And still nothing about a damage increase - perhaps hoping we would forget about it? Or will that be 'immediately after Update 4.....ok, immediately after Update 5.....sometime in 2007'

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2. After analysis, Scrappers CAN NOT reach the same levels of resistance as a Tank. Regeneration, though, is a small concern.

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Yet more proof that you guys really don't know the game we are playing. Seriously, put the damn calculators and spreadsheets away for a week and bloody well play the game, from scratch, the hard way. Learn the difference between theory and practice (Geko's 'explanation' of how Jab was better than Boxing was another case of not understanding gameplay vs design numbers).

All the rest - meh. Continued dumbing down of mobs to make it easier for blasters and a lot of empty promises - I used to believe you, but no more.

In case its not obvious, I am seriously hacked off right now.

I ddin't mean a mission slider Doc, sorry for the confusion.

I meant a sliding scale in the X minions = 1 Hero as levels increase, but nothing like the degree proposed elsewhere that had X=30 at level 50. That is just ridiculous, completely unnecessary and even counter to comic-book feel - such mass battles are very much the exception in comics. But going up to 6 or 8 "minion equivalents" at 50, while at the same time actually replacing minions with Lts, bosses and even monsters, gets the playing field back into the 1 vs 3 arena, without players feeling like they have lost too much.

As for the tantrum throwing when the changes get implemented - yeah, its gonna happen. But it'll happen if there is a 10% drop in perceived power just as much as if there is a 300% drop. The powergamers will adjust rapidly (and make scads of XP while various imbalances are being worked out), the 'average' player will be wondering why the spawn sizes just dropped, then once they get through the first fight or three be very glad the numbers in each spawn have dropped, seeing how tough the enemies are.

The power doesn't really work for the game, for the reasons Statesman points out. Large teams are SOL, non-damage dealers are second-class citizens, gameplay has been reduced to highly dubious herding and mass slaughter, not tactical gameplay and team interaction. There are better ways of giving a sense of being a superhero than judging how tough a character is based on unbalanced foes. Personally, being able to round up 50 odd minions or go toe-to-toe solo with a boss 6 levels above me doesn't make me feel like a superhero, it just makes me think the game is broken, because it doesn't fit the design I bought into at the beginning From my point of view (which I admit is not typical) being able to tank 150 mobs because they are too weak to do anything to affect me is just as broken a situation as SG is before the fix hits it in Issue 2 - both are unintentional, both break gameplay from the design, both need fixing. People are going to get a shock - which means the devs need to shout these changes from the rooftops day after day once they have enough of it set. But it does needs to be done, and to a relatively extreme degree (though, as I said at the beginning, perhaps less extreme than 3 minions = 1 Hero even at level 50).

I agree Kali. I applaud the devs for wanting to make the high end game a challenge, and to move it away from the 150+ pulls we are seeing atm, but at the same time not having any change in 'perceived power' is a bit underwhelming.

To follow on from the poster above you (sorry, forgot the name!) I think a sliding scale could be adopted, perhaps alongside a terminology change. The 'minion' level could get renamed after level 30, because the term itself carries a certain triviality to it. Maybe Bosses become 'Villains' (or even Super-Villains), Lts become Zealot/Convert/Soldier, minions become henchman or flunky?? Its late, so I'm kinda at a loss on the creative naming side of it , so if anyone has an idea, go with it.

One thing that would probably help would be to make the underling class truly trivial - equal to a single, equal level, heavily slotted (250% of base+) moderate attack to defeat. These would be the types that the army is taking on, but as soon as the real soldiers (as in current minion class) arrives, they need hero level help.

Just 3 things to think about in reply (do not take this as an attack in any way, just other things to think about);

1) Parsing damage from reasonably high (mid-30s) tanks and scrappers puts tanker damage significantly power than scrappers (far far below the 75% 'target'). At that time scrappers were, interestingly, running at less than 70% of blaster damage as well. I used to think exactly as you did until I went out and got some hard data.

2) Some of us do That is the main difference I was trying to get Ballzy to notice several posts ago, and that Captain_Silven did see, between what Statesman is actually saying and what some people think he is saying. As things are right now, HP doesn't matter a whole lot - that is going to change once the post-Issue 2 revamp comes into play. It is clear, however, that Statesman is aware of the HP difference, and the difference between having the same defence stats and being able to tank as well.

3) The underlying issue pointed out has been that, while scrappers could pick up powers to raise their defenses to tanker levels, there was no corresponding way for tankers to reach scrapper damage levels. Now, as usual, there were too many arguments at the extreme in any discussions on that, but the slot usage was not enough to balance things out (although it did make it closer than some extremists would admit to). Adding in a controlled, tanker only way to help redress the damage potential difference to target levels, at the same time as giving a much more comic-book feel, is an exceptional solution in concept - we just have to hope the implementation lives up to that.

Although I post mostly in the tanker forums, and I am a tanker first, I am very much a scrapper second and third (and fourth and fifth). If I felt these ideas would negatively impact on the play of my scrappers (one of each defence set) then I would be saying so, believe me. From my own data, parsing and experience, it would take a very large (and obviously too big) buff to bring tankers up to scrapper levels in practical terms.

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Ok, so the only possible reason to play a Tanker over a Scrapper is for this aoe taunt? He just admitted that a Scrapper can have the same defense as a Tanker. What am I missing here? Tanker should have at least 30 % better defense than the best Scrapper.

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No he didn't, go back and read it carefully. What he said was accurate and very specific and does not mean what you think it means.

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To speak to those worried about us usurping the role of "boss killer" from the scrappers. Well, it has been said before, that no group should need any specific AT. That means that each AT should be able to in some way sub for 1 or more other ATs. Of course not as effectively, but none-the-less, we will be able to adequetly step into that role now, as can most blasters.

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Tankers can already fill that role more then well enuff. Tankers single target attacks do about as much as Scrappers do. The upside for Scrappers realy is the crits against bosses. But if the bonus from this change is larger then the 15% crit chance against a boss, then more then just boss killing will be a problem.

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Znail, that is flat out untrue. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not call it a lie this time, but there is simply no comparison between scrapper and tanker melee attack lines, single target or otherwise, unless you completely ignore 3/4 of the elements involved (damage, recharge, end cost, number of attacks).

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I mean, does your damage build for each successive attack on the same enemy, or does it build over the course of a single battle? If I fight and kill three enemies, and then run over to another group ten feet away, do I lose all my accumulated power? None of it? What?


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Essentially, each hit (if successful) will give you a short term damage buff. Different powers would have different buffs; but if you could string enough hits together you can "peak" your damage.

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I was hoping you would do it this way, and not with some form of 'fill-up' bar (which could get horribly abused in gameplay) - the only thing I would be careful of is making the bonus long enough to be useful to all secondaries (Axe is the main one I am thinking of here, being a bit slower than the others). With the promised toughening up of higher level combats (just make them as proportionately difficult as the new Hollows mob groups, that would be perfect ) Tankers of all forms are looking to be coming into their own at last.

Ridolfo,

Time to get out the hose and cleaning tools then. The devs have already stated they are going to allow the stacking of some armours for Ice/Stone/DA (possibly others, don't recall offhand).

Statesman,

Thank you. The provoke-like effect on melee attacks is exactly what I have been asking for, so I am really happy to see that being implemented in some form. The build-up damage for ongoing attacks will be an interesting one to see in practice. Really curious as to how this will be done in detail.

Good luck with the coding and internal testing

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Don't forget all those poor sods in public schools in the Midwest US being told that 'New England' is the 13 original colonies when its JUST the six states in the NE corner of the US, course they also pronounce foliage like its foilage. I also have met people that though the UK includes Ireland, that'll really provoke a response from anyone not in Northern Ireland.

Expect some ignorance on these matters from the US when our schools can't even teach our kids the geography of our own country. Besides your so small its like a group of states not countries over there

I've never made it to Europe, closest I've gotten to international travel is Sherbrook, Quebec and Hawai'i. I'd love to see some of the stomping grounds of the rest of my ancestors, partially native american and grew up in the lands that my native ancestors roamed and made home.

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LoL Hey!! I just read that bit in the middle!! Bloody foreigners

Yeah, the UK/GB/Ireland thing really seems tough for some people to get sorted out. I don't get uptight about it, just makes me laugh at the confusion, hehe, plus I can just wind up a couple of Glaswegian friends of mine by saying they are from Scotlandshire.

If you are interested btw, the difference between Great Britain and England/Scotland/Wales is why we don't have a Great Britain soccer team in the Olympics - doing so would effectively give up our right to play as individual nations in other international tournaments, and that is never going to happen.

There is a bit of turnabout as well - I live in Texas now and while back home we lump all Americans (as in, people from the USA) into the term 'yank', down here they would only consider it refering to those from the north. Learn something new everyday

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No offense to the British. I love the English, just not the food


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umm i'm confused, since when does British mean English, there are 3 other countries in Britain you know and us other countries tend to find being called english insulting sorta like calling some 1 from U.S.A canadian or vice versa.

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Typical Welshie

NO OFFENSE!! Seriously, I have relatives near you and love the area, hope I can back there someday. It makes me laugh the total confusion many yanks have over the difference between England, Scotland, Wales, NI, Great Britain and the UK.

I am taking that comment in context with his one previously about looking at a way to get tankers deal more damage as they take more/get hit more/whatever. That sounds extremely close to the Hulk to me, and I don't like it. I could be wrong, which is the only reason I didn't cancel immediately, I want to see what else he has to say, as long as it is said soon. But its another vague promise with no timeline, no detail and little else. If its a tanker wide change it does nothing the address the hopeless internal imbalance, if its an SS only change it is unacceptably concept restricting.

Krunch, Doc_S, sturm, Volante and all the others I have thoroughly enjoyed talking with these last few months - been a pleasure meeting you all. I'll be watching you guys for the next week or so though, so be good

Edit: How could I forget Foo!! Take it easy mate (and I did complain about the name for Rage back in beta, heh)

Out.

I am simply really fed up with vague statements, cutsie teasers and continued data gathering, when the problem is blatantly obvious and we should be beyond the devs acting coy about changes.

If he can't give us solid information, and a reasonable timeline, particularly in light of the news about Mace that was obtained last night from Geko on TC, I'm done.

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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.

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/sigh.

Well guys, consider this news the nail in the coffin. Been great talking with many of you, and I wish you all the very best.

5 weeks, lord knows how many posts and suggestions, and he thinks we all want to be the Hulk.... I give up.

OK, I am understanding you better now. I don't like your analogy though, since I never promised anybody anything. Plus I don't like analogies anyway, they are either too vague to be useful or too contrived to be worth explaining.

This is a case of us simply having to disagree. I too bought the game and created a character based on a concept. Only I am far from happy with the result, and I do feel justified in expecting a level playing field, that I shouldn't be penalised for choosing SS, for choosing flight, for choosing to be a tanker at all. I am sorry for the people it may negatively affect but I honestly believe that number is very low, and a tiny fraction of those that are justifiably upset over the internal imbalance of the tanker AT and play with hope for change or have given up completely.

I had an expectation that SS would be equal (not the same, but equal) to the other tanker powersets in overall capability, it isn't even close. I had an expectation that the tanker AT, in any format, would be able to fulfil the descriptions given in the game documentation. For too many combinations, it cannot.

I am not sure of the exact text of the following quote nor who said it, but it goes something like 'A reasonable man changes himself to fit the world, and an unreasonable man tries to change the world to fit him'. I guess I am an unreasonable man, I can live with that.

If its any consolation, I don't think you have much to worry about. I have a very strong feeling we have seen pretty much all we are likely to see by way of changes already.

The I do a problem with one thing you said earlier, Genesis, in telling people that are unhappy with SS to get a different powerset. You state that you are a concept player that makes a character, but you deny that luxury for someone else. Or is that that you expect people with a character concept to have weaker characters by design? I am honestly curious and completely non-hostile about this.

I have 2 character concepts that focus on super-strength. Not using an axe, sword or mace, not having glowing fists or energy, or drawing negative energy from some netherworld, or using martial arts. But being really, really strong. Is it fair that those characters are 50% less effective on a team because I make that choice? I don't think it is. I don't think it is fair to me when I solo, or to the teams I play with when I group. I am not asking if you care about it from your own personal point of view, you have made it clear you don't make those kind of judgement calls. That's cool. But the question remains, is it fair to others who, through character concept or ignorance of the terrible balance among tanker secondaries, are left to operate with a secondary powerset that has less than 50% of the overall offensive capability of most other secondary powersets?

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"This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage."

Don't take this wrong, but anyone who wants to run this kind of character really has to sit back and be silent about what powers should and shouldn't be able to do. You are a min-maxer who wants to squeeze every ounce of effectiveness out of every power. That is not what the bulk of us want.

I don't want Super Strength adjusted so that you can make another perverse Tanker-Scrapper combo. Its the min-maxers who calculated the loss in DPS due to knockback that almost cost Super Strength its defining cool feature: Knockback.

You don't have a concept of what 'normalized' characters are doing with these power sets. You don't appreciate that Super Strength is perfectly fine in a normalized environment. You want it skewable.

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I have to take issue with both the tone (Krunch was far more polite to you than I would have been) and the reasoning.

Its not the players fault that the design is broken, its the devs. Pure and simple. If KB was not detrimental to playing a brick (like it isn't in any tabletop SH game) no-one would have asked for changes to it.

Don't take this wrong, but you really have no idea what other Tanker powersets and other ATs are really capable of. Why is it wrong to ask for equality in potential between tanker secondaries? If you want to keep your current gimpy damage and high knockback, just slot 2 damage, 2 KB and whatever else you want - why does allowing people that want to do something different, to be effective and contribute to teams on more than one level, bother you so much?

Great work Krunch, and thank you again for taking the lead on this, and to all the other tankers out there for making great suggestions and keeping them grounded in reality.

Just to echo Sturm375, it would be nice if they could fix the animation codes to make Jab a jab etc as well. [and if you guys haven't seen it yet, check out what Sister_Aurora suggested as a name change for Punch in Solo's OT thread about the locked thread oops... /chuckle]

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The only time grabbing a blinky matters is when they give temp powers. And at that point its best for owner to NOT get it. Polygonpon and me think we figured out a bug. He grabbed a temp power in a blinky on my mission, it did not have a certain numer of uses before it ran out. I got the other "blinky". When I turned in mission like normal I lost my temp power but polgonpon kept his. I figured it would run out in an hour but the next day he still had his @_@. So now he basicly has invisibility.

That was last week dont know if he still has the temp or not.

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So, instead of reporting a bug you found, your friend exploited it and now you are encouraging someone else to do the same......oookay.