YEP YEP.
He does get it better then even some players.
No, I won't have fun burning 3 white minions.
But hey that's me. Everyone is different.
Hes done his homework.
/applauds
and furthermore
/applaud Krunch on all the good posts.
Actually...
I have a lot of problems with this. Minions are by definition, nearly faceless, interchangeable, and indistinct. While villains of both extreme caliber (read: High Security level) and indistinctiveness are possible, how many Robot menaces, Alien Invasions, etc., can you tolerate?
If I have to see, and fight, the same three things over and over again, they lose distinctiveness. Unless I'm in way over my head, (i.e. an Earthbound hero fighting the defenders of a Cosmic foe), something indistinct shouldn't be overwhelmingly challenging from a Comic perspective, else the powers that be would make them more distinctive.
The continuously decreasing threat posed by minions in City of Heroes matches the Comic format perfectly. For three opponents to be a challenge for the highest level of a hero, they need to be near peers of the hero; if so many villains exist at that power level, the idea that they're both working collectively in a structure and haven't won yet is pretty ludicrous.
Bosses being made into miniature AV's, that's good. Lieutenants being made peers of the current Bosses? Sure. But teeming hordes of faceless minions where any three equal one of the world's finest heroes, is tearing the bounds of credibility.
The problem is that this isn't a comic. This is an MMOG based on the comic book genre.
Trivial content (no matter what you title it) is boring in the long term.
And you would enjoy Burning 3 minions (for the poster above) if those 3 minions presented a challenge (tough fight) and reward (XP) equivelant for that challenge.
Or did you just want to spend a year or so annhilating 50 minions at a clip at L50? Because these guys want to keep you in this game for a year or more if possible.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.
Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
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Trying not to sound patronizing, but this is the first by Statesman that really confirms in my mind that he gets what an MMOG is supposed to revolve around.
It might sound simplistic, but 9/10ths of MMOG developers don't get this one simplistic idea.
And more to the point, they are heading their game in the right direction in the broad sense.
Kudos from someone who likes not wasting his time needlessly on a game while ...... errr ..... wasting his time needlessly on a game.
[/ QUOTE ]
He get's it?
Doubtful.
Someone certainly didn't get it.
release a game you consider unbalanced... then this late in it's development nerf the hell..... out of everything. No I don't think 3 even level minions should be a threat to ANY super hero. Did batman get beat down by 4 stooges? No he'd wipe the floor with any 10 of them while alternatively slapping the hell out of the joker. That's super heroic... not being billy clubbed to death by 3 security guards at LEVEL 40......
I could see several +1 or +2 minions being a threat. And guess what... none of this will really fix anything. I'd just go slaughter greens or blues en-masse and level up faster with less threat.
If he "gets" it then they'll adjust XP reward to go along with that difficulty increase. If they don't then I know what this is REALLY about. $$$$$$$.
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that this isn't a comic. This is an MMOG based on the comic book genre.
Trivial content (no matter what you title it) is boring in the long term.
And you would enjoy Burning 3 minions (for the poster above) if those 3 minions presented a challenge (tough fight) and reward (XP) equivelant for that challenge.
Or did you just want to spend a year or so annhilating 50 minions at a clip at L50? Because these guys want to keep you in this game for a year or more if possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Crap krunch. when I hit 50 I'm retiring my guy and re-rolling a new toonl. they don't need to slow me to a crawl to keep me interested. In fact it's having the opposite effect. Why bother going through the grind again only to find our I'm no more effective at 40 than I was at 20?
Waste of freaking time.
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The problem is that this isn't a comic. This is an MMOG based on the comic book genre.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're missing something crucial here. I'm not here because this is a MMORPG. I'm here because it's a Comic book game. That's why we talk about comic book look and feel all the time, or at least why I do and why I thought you did.
I've spent my time in MMORPG land, back from the days this was all text Aber, DIKU, and LPMuds through the graphical revolution to the modern day. The medium is irrelevant, really. It's all the message. You will get a hell of a lot more customers for a Comic book that happens to be a MMOG than a MMOG that's sort of like a Comic book. Else you just get as some have put it, "Elves in Spandex."
I think Statesman, with his great professed love of the genre, wants to give us a Comic book to play, one where we're each the hero. And from the way things have been so far, with the breaking of the mold regarding speed of combat, playstyle, etc., he's done exactly that.
I'm just expressing the concern that in trying to get his message across in his chosen medium (MMORPG), it's always clear that the medium has to expand for the message to get across; that he doesn't restrict his message to the bandwidth of his medium.
I want to go Cosmic, I want to wander the Stars of his universe. I think he can take me there. It almost makes me weep, the potential of what he's put before us. We just need to make sure that the zealots bound by what has come before in the MMORPG medium do not strangle this wonderous child while it's still young.
The other MMO i played gave me a sense of power once i started leveling. If your still gonna be stuck killing the same 3 white minions at lvl 40 as u did when u started that's not going to be very heroic or feel much different then the beginning of the game where your a wimp.
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The other MMO i played gave me a sense of power once i started leveling. If your still gonna be stuck killing the same 3 white minions at lvl 40 as u did when u started that's not going to be very heroic or feel much different then the beginning of the game where your a wimp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactamundo.
Statesman does NOT get it. I disagree with Krunch on this in a major way. The one aspect of being superhuman in this game is that at some point the even con minions feel "puny" to you. And that's great. Because that's what a minion is. Super-agents, yes, but lts and bosses they are not.
How long did it take us to convince him that the tank didn't feel like a comic book tank? Why didn't they feel like a comic book tank fro the get go? Because the Devs are too focused on the MMORPG business and not thinking enough about the comic book aspects. It's not that they CAN'T do that (the just did it for tanks). It's that they AREN'T doing it enough. And clearly they are missing the point.
The Devs accidentally simalated a comic book. They had us fighing MOBs way more powerful than we were. That was great--indeed, it was ideal. A supergroup fighting villains that should be too tough but with teamwork they are able to triumph. And when we fought even level mobs we felt powerful.
And this is all about hunting--which isn't what I want to do at all. I want it to be about missions. And it would be perfectly easy to allow a mission slider to generate high cons for me and for my team.
There's NO logical reason why you can't say: for levels 1-10 3 minions, 1 minion + lt challenge for even con; for 11-20 the same numbers but +1 levels is what's "challenging; from 21-30, the number is +2; from 31-50, it becomes +3.
Those numbers can be made right. The adjustments can be made fair. Just make sure that's how missions spawn.
Otherwise, this will once again make teams highly restrictive. "What? He's 25? We're all 27s. That's too low! We can't sidekick him so get rid of him. He'll find a single level 27 minion a challenge and I can take 3!"
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And you would enjoy Burning 3 minions (for the poster above) if those 3 minions presented a challenge (tough fight) and reward (XP) equivelant for that challenge.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's the thing, though, if XP remains the same, everyone gets scaled back in their timetable. You spend a month getting a level you could have gotten in a week. Playing with the same powers for a month, running through contacts to get missions and then having to hunt to gain enough XP for levels sounds like a bad idea.
This game should allow for people to do just missions for leveling. Outside hunting is not what everyone wants to do.
As you said earlier, this isn't a complaint, it's more of a thing I'm worried about. You and other tankers have said that the 40+ game is slow moving. Imagine if you're now scaled back in your XP gains in a day? Top that with previous concerns, and people start leaving for WoW or whatever else there is. Matrix online comes out in November. As a business, Cryptic has to hold on to the crowd it has. If 25-50% of the base leaves, they're most likely not coming back, so they have to find a balance.
The first reaction I had when I heard that the 40+ game was busted was that it was originally designed for 40 levels. Maybe scaleing back the primaries and secondaries' availability to those reaches would be appropriate? Pre 50 level, and invuln scrapper could just get 6 slotted unstoppable at 40, which was the peak. This can't be fixed though, because there are too many people who are at those levels, and grandfathering them would be too much of a big deal. We don't have powers to look forward to after 40, just things we didn't pick up because of priorities. That in itself is a letdown. Once you hit 38, and have the ability to get the potentially most powerful thing out of both of your powersets, looking back on the rest is trivial.
One thing I'd suggest here would be an expansion on power pools. A fifth power, available at Sl 41, that would be significant in effect. You would need 3 of the previous powers already to pick it. Travel powers would have a tremendous boost in movement, so they can scale accross maps in seconds, not minutes. Things like that.
Anyway, I'm going to stop rambling.
I don't agree that a superhero combating three white minions at level 15 should be equivalent to fighting three white minions at level 50. The superhero will(should) have many more ways of dispatching those minions at level 50. Thus he should be able to take on more of a challenge compared to his level when he is a fully developed, in-his-prime, level 50 superhero than when he is a wet-behind-the-ears, just-out-of-hero-school, low level superhero.
Would the rewards for leveling up your hero be as gratifying if the only results is that you can keep you head above water when fighting even con enemies? Or is the development of an elite, high level hero worthy of more than doing the same stuff, comparatively, he did at the beginning of his career?
I choose the latter.
Remeber we are talking about minions, not Lts. or Bosses here. There is a big difference between these anonymous flunkies and their superiors.
Quality vs. quantity.
Some people want to have tougher fights with three whites.
Some people want to have tougher fights with twelve whites.
What's the difference? Why can't "minions" at level 30 be considered a challenge in groups of three? If they're appropriately scaled up with powers and, most importantly, XP, then it's really just a matter of preference.
Frankly, I couldn't care less about numbers as long as I'm having fun and levelling at a decent rate. Whether this is fighting an archvillain or even-con minions doesn't matter.
Perhaps the issue between the MMOG and comic viewpoints here is less divisive than it seems. Does anyone disagree that fighting a couple of +4 bosses solo is wrong?
Minions should be thwompable in droves once you get up there, but the lieutenants and bosses shouldn't. That's my issue.
That said, Statesman's commentary at least proves that they are aware of the issue, understand some of the root causes, and can see why people aren't happy.
Every MMOG should be so lucky.
I think the entire CoH community needs to push STRONGLY for Statesman to explain the specifics of this plan.
He says he doesn't care about how fast we level. But there's no way he's going to triple the experience we're earning for even level minions.
So at least my group will slow down dramatically. Becaues we regularly fight +3 and +4s.
And it takes, what, two thousand even level cons for some levels... But, hey, if they multiply the experience you earn by 1.5 that will only be 1300 or so!
[ QUOTE ]
Quality vs. quantity.
Some people want to have tougher fights with three whites.
Some people want to have tougher fights with twelve whites.
What's the difference? Why can't "minions" at level 30 be considered a challenge in groups of three? If they're appropriately scaled up with powers and, most importantly, XP, then it's really just a matter of preference.
Frankly, I couldn't care less about numbers as long as I'm having fun and levelling at a decent rate. Whether this is fighting an archvillain or even-con minions doesn't matter.
Perhaps the issue between the MMOG and comic viewpoints here is less divisive than it seems. Does anyone disagree that fighting a couple of +4 bosses solo is wrong?
Minions should be thwompable in droves once you get up there, but the lieutenants and bosses shouldn't. That's my issue.
That said, Statesman's commentary at least proves that they are aware of the issue, understand some of the root causes, and can see why people aren't happy.
Every MMOG should be so lucky.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't consider being reduced to struggling in a fight with three street thugs as a veteran superhero "lucky" want to decrease XP for minions? fine. buff them a bit? fine. cripple me by making it impossible for me to play.... definitely not lucky. Are they going to clip spawn size? in the high game you barely EVER see spawns that small. Check out PI... huge spaws usally accomanied by a boss or SEVERAL luis. with that kind of equation you'd HAVE to have teams of 3 or 4 to do anything in the post 39 game.
It's a bad damned idea.
I speak solely for myself when I say that I'm going to wait until the changes are on Test and then actually test them.
Judging by Cryptic's track record so far, when Statesman says it needs to be FUN at 30+, that's what I think they'll provide, in whatever form it needs to be in. They _know_ that grinding is not fun. If they think we should grind, they think it should be fun. Therefore, if the fun is lacking, it ain't going live. Couple that with the mantra of making things 'feel' like a comic book superhero that we hear, and I can understand the _concern_ that fighting 3 even-con minions would be teh suck, but I can't fathom how anyone can honestly believe that these devs would do it. I sure don't.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't consider being reduced to struggling in a fight with three street thugs as a veteran superhero "lucky" want to decrease XP for minions? fine. buff them a bit? fine. cripple me by making it impossible for me to play.... definitely not lucky. Are they going to clip spawn size? in the high game you barely EVER see spawns that small. Check out PI... huge spaws usally accomanied by a boss or SEVERAL luis. with that kind of equation you'd HAVE to have teams of 3 or 4 to do anything in the post 39 game.
It's a bad damned idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a whole boatload of assumptions you're making there. If you're going to assume that everything you have is going to occur, then, yes, that's not lucky. It also doesn't sound very fun to me.
I think you need to scale back on the hyperbole and take a look at what I said.
Now tell me: would you be unhappy if soloing three white-con minions was challenging, fun and profitable?
Those were my assumptions. We can't even debate if we're not going to be looking at the same situation.
Also, yes, I consider us lucky. This dev team is the most open, honest and downright human I've ever seen. Look at the changes Geko made to the super strength powers when Issue 2 went on Test. They changed things in ONE DAY. ONE DAY!
I've never seen a dev team that was willing to act on that kind of timetable.
[ QUOTE ]
Quality vs. quantity.
Some people want to have tougher fights with three whites.
Some people want to have tougher fights with twelve whites.
What's the difference? Why can't "minions" at level 30 be considered a challenge in groups of three? If they're appropriately scaled up with powers and, most importantly, XP, then it's really just a matter of preference.
Frankly, I couldn't care less about numbers as long as I'm having fun and levelling at a decent rate. Whether this is fighting an archvillain or even-con minions doesn't matter.
Perhaps the issue between the MMOG and comic viewpoints here is less divisive than it seems. Does anyone disagree that fighting a couple of +4 bosses solo is wrong?
Minions should be thwompable in droves once you get up there, but the lieutenants and bosses shouldn't. That's my issue.
That said, Statesman's commentary at least proves that they are aware of the issue, understand some of the root causes, and can see why people aren't happy.
Every MMOG should be so lucky.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right about the Devs--I admit it. I just think Statesman has swung WAAAYY to far to the wrong side of this issue. He should be saying, 2 +4 bosses is wrong for solo, but we might let a tank/scrapper handle 2 +2s... I don't think 3 minions should be a problem for a thirtieth level character. The best part of this game is the sense of a power increase you get. Statesman should pull back his numbers a bit... Because right now we certainly feel superheroic! Maybe not challenged enough, mind you, but definitely superheroic! It's the only part of this game that DOES make me feel superheroic on a regular basis...
Also, Foo, I can't help feeling this IS designed as a break. I cannot fathom how they would accomplish letting us level as we are against even cons without tripling their ep value... And I think they just won't do that.
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the issue between the MMOG and comic viewpoints here is less divisive than it seems. Does anyone disagree that fighting a couple of +4 bosses solo is wrong?
[/ QUOTE ]
On a regular basis? No. But on occasion, where their abilities are something I'm very strong against? Yeah, I'm ok with that. The Human Torch doesn't have much to fear from Pyro's fiery birds after all.
I think we need a new category of enemy though, to illustrate Comic villainy between the Boss and the Archvillain, at roughly the two +4 boss level. Call them the Villain, the unique costumed enemy that doesn't make the city tremble at their approach, but is still someone you run from when you see them rob the bank down the street. They're your Electro's, your Sandmans, your Mirror Masters and your Boomerangs. Guys without minions, without support, who strap on a costume and try to rob a bank anyways.
We're missing those kind of guys, the ones who aren't organizational geniuses or the ones lacking in personality but have some power. Paragon would be a more interesting place with them here too.
I think this problem is easily solved.
Yes, Statesman said that you should be challenged by three even level minions. Read that again. EVEN LEVEL minions. This isn't Bob the Goon we're talking about. A minion who's even level to a lvl 40 superhero may be faceless in his organization, but still poses a real threat.
Now, if you want to make things interesting, you need to vary the encounter TYPES. Rather than have the standard yellow LT plus 2 white minions encounter (at least that's standard for me in my lvl 14 and below game), or the hordes of green/blue minions and one or two LTs but no bosses, how about this.
2 red/purple bosses, 3-4 yellow LTs, and a horde of green/grey minions. This creates cannon fodder that you have to mow through before you get to the tougher challenges. To me, this would be more along the lines of a comic book.
Big nasty boss is suddenly interrupted in his plans for [insert evil plan here] by group of costumed heroes. Surrounded by his trusted lieutenants and goons, he points at the heroes. "Get them!" A throng of minions, led in battle by the lieutenants attack the heroes and are quickly dispatched. Then the main event begins as the heroes tackle the boss.
So, yeah, you SHOULD be challenged by three goons who are EVEN LEVEL to you, but the encounters you face should reflect the comic book experience where, in the really exciting fights, you encounter a whole bunch of weaker minions, some upper level LTs, and a REALLY tough boss.
But just because the challenge level of a minion is at a certain point doesn't mean that the game must also suddenly lose any comic book flavor. You can still have challenges with easy goons involved to flavor the experience. That's just a question of how you design your encounters.
Okay I love the game.
But the devs react like a glacier to issues and this is a real problem..
AE damage is pandoras box, and they know it.. ..
Smoke Grenade was broke, but it took them 6 months to address it.
Fire controllers .. too slow.
The game was released with HUGE problems.. and from all observation no one even noticed in Dev, QA ect.. Not a soul spotted these major problems..
These were not small things guys.. these allowed char to get to a level that the game designers thought would take 6 months of hard core playing.. in 3 weeks..
These issues and types like this shortened the life of this game...
Banging on the same 3 minnions at 50 that gave me a run for my money at 10 is not my idea of a hero.
The LONG term thing is spent.. its over.. because it took you too long to react to out right complete total destructive bugs..
You want to help the game now you need creative ideas that will not feel like you are stealing a heros powers when he sleeps..
Even though smoke was broke.. un breaking it feels like a great huge insulting intrusion because monday I could do somthing that I can today..
Better suggestions are needed than increaseing minion xp..
Richard Garriot is on your staff . ask him what happend when they ruined the spawn at the bone wall....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the issue between the MMOG and comic viewpoints here is less divisive than it seems. Does anyone disagree that fighting a couple of +4 bosses solo is wrong?
[/ QUOTE ]
On a regular basis? No. But on occasion, where their abilities are something I'm very strong against? Yeah, I'm ok with that. The Human Torch doesn't have much to fear from Pyro's fiery birds after all.
I think we need a new category of enemy though, to illustrate Comic villainy between the Boss and the Archvillain, at roughly the two +4 boss level. Call them the Villain, the unique costumed enemy that doesn't make the city tremble at their approach, but is still someone you run from when you see them rob the bank down the street. They're your Electro's, your Sandmans, your Mirror Masters and your Boomerangs. Guys without minions, without support, who strap on a costume and try to rob a bank anyways.
We're missing those kind of guys, the ones who aren't organizational geniuses or the ones lacking in personality but have some power. Paragon would be a more interesting place with them here too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that I agree with.
There needs to be a few (dare I say it?) EQ-style mobs that are group-on-one challenges, but not something so rare and unique as your Adamastors, Babbages and such, and, obviously, no where near the ability of the archvillains.
The problem with this game is that it's designed to mimic the superhero world. This can't be done massively multiplayer. I mean, really, we've got 95 Human Torches, 189^3 Punishers, at least a gajillion Wolverines... 
How the heck do you replicate a world were being a superhero or supervillain is rare when you've got 100 000 subscribers?
I guess I'm saying that some concessions must be made for this to work. Part of that is accepting that you're not Batman or Superman or the Hulk, and your supergroup isn't going to be the X-men or Fantastic Four.
So we fight jacked up super-thugs who are produced by 'dyne, genetic research or supernatural tampering. Who's to say that Batman wouldn't have trouble fighting a legion of Fifth Column ubermenschen?
Personally, it all boils down to having fun, which for me is pretty much calculated thus:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>FUN = Challenge*XP+Influence
-----------------------
Time</pre><hr />
Maybe that's why I'm not seeing this as doom-and-gloom. My fun calculation doesn't take # of enemies beaten into account. 
There is one thing amusing here, as a Tanker I never considered 3 even con minions a fair fight. At level 12 I could easily handle 10+ level +1 minions. So I dont know if its ever accurate with 3 minions for each hero.
[ QUOTE ]
I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.
Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.
Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.
Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.
[/ QUOTE ]
Trying not to sound patronizing, but this is the first by Statesman that really confirms in my mind that he gets what an MMOG is supposed to revolve around.
It might sound simplistic, but 9/10ths of MMOG developers don't get this one simplistic idea.
And more to the point, they are heading their game in the right direction in the broad sense.
Kudos from someone who likes not wasting his time needlessly on a game while ...... errr ..... wasting his time needlessly on a game.