Well if you'd have been clear about which everyone. That one is completely your fault. Quote tighter dammit. And I said whined not complained you had the post in front of you and couldn't get it right, so I wouldn't be talking about anyone's memory bub. And your sure you never said one bad thing about front loaded missions? You complain a lot and I don't have the ablity to datamine back to registration date. 
**edit** and 3 equal con morons is what? 35 of you? 40?
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
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Yeah, I'm with you there. It's hard to see a minion as anything but a minion, despire whatever fancy wrapper it's wearing, when they all have the same HP,, worth the same EXP, come in the same arrangements, etc. All of this makes it hard to accept as credible that Nemesis soldiers function on par with Rikti Infantry, who are equal to Malta troopers, who are the same as Carnie entertainers.
It's hard to believe someone the game says it hypnotizing and pickpocketing pedestrians in Peregrine Island is at the same power level as Dimension hopping world invaders who slaughtered most of the world's heroes.
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which comes down to this...
I'm a trained fire/fire blaster... Gifted by scientific experimentation the power of fire. Bullets can't kill me. I can fly like a bird and run at 85 mph.... I've faced down freaks, rikti, and nazi super soldiers... I've battled reanimated killing machines culled from the cells of former heroes.... I've battled demons, and cyborgs and been beaten to a pulp more times than I can count.... I've followed the story line, been faithful to my super team and my concept... carefully choosing my powers..... enjoying every minute of it.... just so I can be pummeled to death by three guys with taser guns and web grenades... when I should be reaching the pinnacle.
Anti-climatic isn't it?
Now boys, play nice; you particularly, VPIVCI, or we'll find someone to play Speedball to your Nova. 
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Well if you'd have been clear about which everyone. That one is completely your fault. Quote tighter dammit. And I said whined not complained you had the post in front of you and couldn't get it right, so I wouldn't be talking about anyone's memory bub. And your sure you never said one bad thing about front loaded missions? You complain a lot and I don't have the ablity to datamine back to registration date.
**edit** and 3 equal con morons is what? 35 of you? 40?
[/ QUOTE ]
knock yourself out pal... I've never posted a single damn thing about frontloading. and as far as I'm concerned you were a little do anxious to flame me. no prob i have that effect on people. I think states prolly wants me banned for that $$$$ statement. maybe you should have asked me for clairfication before you began making with the insults.
Krunch is right, we are too sensitive 
Speedball, got one of those in SG. Best excuse I can think of for open PvP. Really.
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
Ouch, I may find myself agreeing with you now simply out of sympathy. Speedball indeed...
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Krunch is right, we are too sensitive Speedball, got one of those in SG. Best excuse I can think of for open PvP. Really.
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I'm not sensitive.... I'm passionate because I love this game. I've got 4 months of nonstop play in it and I've just been told that 4 chicks in clown outfits and funny electric rings are soon going to out class me on the best day of my life.
And to think... I named my toon after a fire god. should have called him the bic-lighter....
To STATESMAN:
Minions grow with levels... Okay FINE I can live with that logic. A Crey minion is vastly more power the a Helion, with better weapons, gear, training, etc.
BUT guess what?? MY hero is growing too! BUT if my hero can't "grow" stronger then a minion of his same level after MANY YEARS (ie levels) of intense training, crime fighting, new gadgets, or what have you... then I for one see this as going against the notion of what a comic book Super Hero is all about!
A level 10 hero can hande 3 even con minions?
Sounds balanced.
A level 45 hero can only handle 3 minions!?!?
So minions are now Super Hero's too?? By this I mean they are EXTRAODINARY individuals with extreme potential as well? I thought that was the perview of AVs, Bosses and to a lesser extent Lieutenants...
A level 45 hero can handle 6 minions...
Now we are talking! 
By definition of being a Super Hero , I should be growing in ability faster then a mere lackey, so that by the 40+ level range I have become twice as strong as a mere non super hero lackey minion shlub. I'm a SUPER HERO, right!? These are just lackeys. I should be improving at a greater rate then a lowly lackey for the love of god...
Lieutenants, Bosses, AVs. Sure make them HARD. Make 1 Lieu at 45+ a real threat. Make a Boss an equal and make the AV's the powerhouses they are meant to be.
But PLEASE don't mess with lowly minions! Please don't make Superheroes so weak that just 3 clods with riot gear or fancy sharp katana's can take me down.
Statesman, did you watch the first Spiderman movie? Remember the part where Spidey saves MJ from the bad guys in the dark alley? Did you happen to COUNT the number of guys he OWNED in the fight? It was MORE then 3 and they provided no REAL challenge at all. On the other hand the Goblin was easily a match for Spidey.
To me THAT is what a SUPER hero is. Don't ruin us by making minions so strong at high levels that we, as heroes, lose any and all sense of "growth" in this game. It is through minions that we MEASURE our prowse in combat!
I'm not saying that taking down 12 to 20 white con minions is balanced at the moment but making the game difficulty so HARD that we are back to day 1 when fighting 3 or more minions is just bad, from a hero perspective.
QF
"enjoying every minute of it.... just so I can be pummeled to death by three guys with taser guns and web grenades... "
Which guys at level 40 are going to take you down with nothing but taser guns and web grenades?
You sling it Heph, but you need to double flush after some of your posts on this thread. Most of them are nothing but hyperbole.
"I've at the peak of my Bio-Rythms, and I'm taken down by three poodles with shock collars". It's old, it's weak, and at this point, it's just spamming the thread.
Since you posted that you had said all you had to say on the subject, and was going to take it offline with States, why don't you be a man of your word?
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ok, i'll admit . . . i DO NOT get it.
currently: let's say you can face off against 3 +5 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.
ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.
you now hunt 3 +1 minions (who are as tough as the old +5 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is +1 instead of +5, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?
so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.
methinks your concern is not with feeling "heroic", but rather just having something to complain about.
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no that's not it. And if i try and explain it to you I know you'll feign ignorance.... but oh we'll he're goes.
This is supposed to be a super hero game. that's what it's billed as. Only fledgling characters would get beaten down by 3 minions. Now if you want to buy into state's vision you go for it.... but hear me out. The hand are some of the deadliest minion in marvel comics. If they'd faced daredevil early in his career they would have forced those fancy brass knuckles down his throat post haste. After fighting those guys for years he improved to the point where he could wipe the floor with them. Because he was experienced fighting them. I could see getting my *** handed to me by 3 +1 minions.... but a super hero should be able to whack 10 minions of equal level silly.
That is my perception... I'd be willing to shave 2 off that to 6... but three? If that "feels" super to you more power to you. Dosen't feel super to me. If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.
Make such distinctions, balance xp based on that and I'll eat that soup with the crackers. Leave as it is now and tell me that 4 guys in funny hats holding muskets can send me to the hospital.... and I'm expected to "feel super?"
Not buying it.
Or more importantly,... not paying for it. I'm average every day of my life, it's free.
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ok, first off, comments about game balance that are rooted in a comic book analogy are not useful in the least. using comic book analogies to discuss the "comic book" feel of CoH is perfectly fine, but it's right out when talking about game balance. CoH isnt a comic, it isnt a movie, it isnt a novel . . . it's a mmorg. and even though it is BASED on comics (and will strive to capture a comic book feel and setting) it is in the final analysis a mmorg and must meet certain criteria that comic books, movies, and novels do not.
but hey, i'll play it your way . . .
in those issues where Daredevil (or Wolverine, or Batman, or whoever) is kicking the bejeebus out of 20 minions at once . . . i wonder what level are those guys? are they even cons? greys maybe?
you see, it's pointless to use comic book examples to base a game balance criticism on. comics are about entertainment through story telling. mmorgs are about entertainment through challenging game play. comic authors don't have to worry about "minion levels" or "AT balance" or "how fast (or slow) it took Batman to get to 50th level" . . . but Cryptic does.
for example, is my suggestion that Daredevil is beating up on 20 grey con minions at once absurd or not? i mean, why would Daredevil waste his time on greys . . . THEY DONT GIVE XPs! you think Daredevil ever seends his authors a letter asking why they nerfed his Nightstick Accuracy? or that his Super Reflexes doesnt seem to be working as good as they did last week. or that Kingpin's Smashing resistance is too high. no, all those examples are ridiculous becuase you cant discuss game balance with comic book analogies.
so deal with it, 'cause the changes . . . they are a comin'
I am still at a total loss. It's all well and good to say you can't have 280 even con minions in a room to challenge a big group.
But who's suggesting that?
What I've been suggesting--and those like me--was a mission slider and higher cons. More players=higher level mobs.
There's no reason why I can't have the same challenge I had against 3 white mobs--except against 3 red mobs. When I run into the white mobs on the street, I'll clean them up.
Or, for God's sake, stop calling them "minions". It's a pretty lowly sounding name.
But if Statesman--who has been defending this all day--thinks there's an uproar now... Well, wait till he explains HOW he's going to somehow magically make the game 3 minions = 1 hero. I can only imagine massive debuffs, hugely increased mob hits, freaking unreal damage, a really nasty AoE nerf, or the total removal of SOs. How else do you accomplish such a dramatic change in the game?
Why can't he just give us mission slider and let us determine the level of the cons? He can then wipe his hands of the result. The game can't generate enough even cons for an 8 person party? No problem. Let us pop up the slider and generate a boatlaod of +4s.
To me, the numbers do matter... It's funny, Statesman, how I start feeling like a superhero past level 22. And I don't feel like one before 22. So for me, the current setup does work--and the new one will not.
I feel it's important to note that enemies can be made smarter without necessacarily being harder. As an example a group that notices a large AOE attack incoming and spreading out prior to it (nudging one in the direction of getting someone who can hold them in place) would increase the difficulty without exactly increasing how "hard" the enemies are. Not to say that we could do without upping the hitpoints or resistances a little more, that's not my call.
Though I have to wonder .. if making enemies smarter is something integrated with making enemies harder couldn't both camps be appeased by making certain enemy groups .. well .. dumber? Make it easier to solo larger groups, but perhaps adjust their xp so killing a group of X is the same as killing 1 white con. That should make both camps happy.
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ok, i'll admit . . . i DO NOT get it.
currently: let's say you can face off against 3 +5 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.
ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.
you now hunt 3 +1 minions (who are as tough as the old +5 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is +1 instead of +5, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?
so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.
methinks your concern is not with feeling "heroic", but rather just having something to complain about.
[/ QUOTE ]
no that's not it. And if i try and explain it to you I know you'll feign ignorance.... but oh we'll he're goes.
This is supposed to be a super hero game. that's what it's billed as. Only fledgling characters would get beaten down by 3 minions. Now if you want to buy into state's vision you go for it.... but hear me out. The hand are some of the deadliest minion in marvel comics. If they'd faced daredevil early in his career they would have forced those fancy brass knuckles down his throat post haste. After fighting those guys for years he improved to the point where he could wipe the floor with them. Because he was experienced fighting them. I could see getting my *** handed to me by 3 +1 minions.... but a super hero should be able to whack 10 minions of equal level silly.
That is my perception... I'd be willing to shave 2 off that to 6... but three? If that "feels" super to you more power to you. Dosen't feel super to me. If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.
Make such distinctions, balance xp based on that and I'll eat that soup with the crackers. Leave as it is now and tell me that 4 guys in funny hats holding muskets can send me to the hospital.... and I'm expected to "feel super?"
Not buying it.
Or more importantly,... not paying for it. I'm average every day of my life, it's free.
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ok, wait, i still DO NOT get it. let me rephrase my post (that you quoted)
currently: let's say you can face off against 10 +2 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.
ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.
you now hunt 10 -2 minions (who are as tough as the old +2 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is -2 instead of +2, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?
so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.
Article57:
Yes, sure you can look at it that way and I totally agree that the game needs rebalancing but let me run this past you and you tell me if this is UNBALANCED?
Versus even con (white) mobs at level 30+:
Minions - 6
Lieutenants - 2
Bosses - 1
AVs - better call in the SG
And of course mixing things up so that 1 Lieu and 3 minions (as an example) would be a "difficult" battle...
Now how unbalanced is that from level 5 (approx):
Minions - 3
Lieutenants - 2
Bosses - 1
AVs - better call in the SG
Statesman wants to make things challenging again for the 30+ crowd? I say all the power to him. Fighting rediculous numbers of mobs (sometimes 4+ levels higher is nuts).
BUT MAKING THE GAME SO THAT JUST 3 EVEN CON MINIONS AT 40+ CAN SERIOUSLY CHALLENGE ME steals my sense of growth. It is through minions that we MEASURE our strength, like in the comics. I can't see the harm in letting hero's gain some ground on lowly minions as they gain levels. Would a jump from 3 minions to 6 really be that unbalancing?
QF
Interesting read this thread - didn't get Krunch's joke thread about a certain person hijacking his thread until I actually took the time to read this thread in its entirety.
I have no problem with the view that three even con minions are challenge for me at any level.
The problem that ruins the immersion aspect of this game is the level ranges of some 'minion' classes.
The way I would have designated minion classes is:
Levels 1-10: standard street style thugs Hellions, Skulls etc
Levels 11-20: normals with extensive training or special weapons or low level super thugs
This level would include Crey Medics, Crey Patrol Guards, Scientists, Family, Tsoo, 5th Column, Vahz, Clocks, Freaks, Trolls etc
Levels 21-30 normals with extensive training and special weapons, super powered villians/thugs etc
Would include 5th Column, Crey Tanks, Sky Raiders, Nemesis etc.
The problem currently is some minion level threats are in the wrong level ranges - Crey Medics, Patrol Guards, Mob Specialists are in the wrong level range, and they should not be minions in the level 30+ range. It is these anomalies that are causing some of the problems. A Crey Medic / Scientist should not be doing much damage at all by brawling, they are people without special training or weapons in this case - they should be doing level 1-10 scale damage.
It is also a problem that there are level 30+ minions out mugging people on the side-walk, I mean really what is going on here. These are villians with powers equal to a Hero coming into their peak abilities and they are purse snatching, roughing up civilians - they should be off planning super crimes or something at least.
Of course coding any changes along these lines now would change too much but if States was wondering why people sometimes got these funny ideas from this might give some insight.
Lion: That's a good point to make. A Crey Medic could be the most powerful minion in the game. But I can't take them seriously because of the name. And the punch DOES look silly.
It's too late to change the way they did upper level minions and make it obvoius there's something more to them. It's much better if they scale up the levels for missions and add a mission slider if you need to pull the level back to your own.
Just con missions at +3 for 40th level characters--and a mission slider that could push it to +4 or even +5 (but that of course would not neccessarily give any extra eps--it would be for challange sake only).
If they put all crey troops in power suits then I could understand how a few of them could match a hero, but they are in a doctor suit. The riot guards are protected by the awsome might of a bullet proof vest. Even freak minions and lieutents start looking a bit wierd in the mid thirties. He is showing bare skin rather than being clad in ultra heavy armor like his tank brother? Well Mr. I'm Too Tough for Armor meet Mr. Singularity.
Here's my question to everyone doubting the changes in this thread thus far...
Do you enjoy, right now, fighting 3 +4 (purple) minions if they give you a decent challenge and rewards?
If so, why, then, does it matter to you at all if those 3 minions are white or purple, if they're giving you the same amount of challenge and reward? Because that's pretty much what Statesman is trying to do.
If you're the type of person who takes on 6 red minions instead of 3 purple minions... what that's going to turn into is taking on 6 blues instead of 3 whites. Same challenge right now, same rewards... simply changing the colors.
The only thing different is your perception of what the minions "should" be, because you're used to the way it is now.
@Shenalia
Triumph: Ion Force (SG)
Victory: Evil Triumphs (VG)
Proud member of the Triumphant Defenders Coalition.
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Keeping fights from becoming trivial is good.
However, superheroes should still be able to feel like superheros without having to beat on blues and greens. At high levels, I feel that a small fight with 2-3 white minions should be trivial for most heroes, while 5 or more should get trickier. LTs should be fairly formidable, and bosses should be downright dangerous. Most bosses seem about right, but LTs could probably use a boost in abilities.
How about adding some function where minions become tougher in packs? Strength in numbers and all that, especially if there is a LT or boss in the group to lead them. The more of them there are, the more confident (HP and maybe small combat bonuses) they get that they can bring down that big bad hero, but as they start being defeated one by one that confidence (bonus) slowly erodes.
Just a thought.
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Love that idea! It's just the right thing. God knows that herding is more than a bit silly (though like a lot of people I'm NOT one to talk!).
And did I mention a mission slider? And setting the missions to higher levels automaticlaly as you level?
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Article57:
Yes, sure you can look at it that way and I totally agree that the game needs rebalancing but let me run this past you and you tell me if this is UNBALANCED?
Versus even con (white) mobs at level 30+:
Minions - 6
Lieutenants - 2
Bosses - 1
AVs - better call in the SG
And of course mixing things up so that 1 Lieu and 3 minions (as an example) would be a "difficult" battle...
Now how unbalanced is that from level 5 (approx):
Minions - 3
Lieutenants - 2
Bosses - 1
AVs - better call in the SG
Statesman wants to make things challenging again for the 30+ crowd? I say all the power to him. Fighting rediculous numbers of mobs (sometimes 4+ levels higher is nuts).
BUT MAKING THE GAME SO THAT JUST 3 EVEN CON MINIONS AT 40+ CAN SERIOUSLY CHALLENGE ME steals my sense of growth. It is through minions that we MEASURE our strength, like in the comics. I can't see the harm in letting hero's gain some ground on lowly minions as they gain levels. Would a jump from 3 minions to 6 really be that unbalancing?
QF
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well, players arent being challenged by even 6 minions currently at the high levels (herding anyone?) and i seriously doubt that the better builds and more skillful players would be stymied by 3 beefed up minions and 1 uber Lt. even if the feared changes being discussed in the thread were currently in game.
Cryptic is a smart bunch. im not just being a fan boy about this either. i got into beta about 3 weeks before retail and i was thoroughly impressed by them. then in retail my faith began to wane becuase i began to see how unchallenging the released product was and i became very vocal in my criticisms of Cryptic. now, with what im seeing in Update 2, and with what Statesman is leaking about what they are going to be working on once it has gone live, my impression of Cryptic has increased.
these proposed changes to the challenge level of mobs is not going to ruin anything . . . it's only going to strengthen the game. challenge is the lifeblood (bling bling) of mmorgs and Cryptic is a very competent dev team and i have complete confidence that they will balance the overall game to both their intended Vision and the players satisfaction.
everyone is focussing on this magic number "3" that Statesman used to support what they have planned once Update 2 is up and running on the live servers. but that's just a basic design paradigm. they are making these changes becuase the game is "too boring". if making 3 white minions a challenge in turn results in a "too boring" situation im confident they will adjust that magic number. remeber, all these proposals are coming becuase Cryptic indeed wants to fix this "too boring" situation. Cryptic has a high standard of quality and will not release any half-cocked changes.
from where i sit, it seems Cryptic is using indoor mission spawns as the benchmark for what SHOULD be a challenging encounter to the player (at all levels). in missions you typically get 3 white minions . . . so that is going to be their benchmark to adjust the difficulty / challenge level. it's as good a benchmark as any other (and doesnt require them to rework the entire mission system to placate the people who feel that 6 "0.5 difficulty" minions is somehow qualitatively more "Heroic" than 3 "1.0 difficulty" minions). if it turns out that the beefed up "3 white minions" doesnt actually give that fuzzy, comic book hero, feeling i'm sure they'll adjust it.
everyone's arguing over proposals at the moment. it just seems silly to me. and, even though, i seem to come down on the pro-"3 white minions" side of the fence, i'm not actually for it or against it. what i am for is that the challenge level of the game needs a serious boost. however that is done by Cryptic is fine with me. whether it's "3 whites" or "6 whites". all i know is, once you hit level 22 missions are a huge /yawnfest. either raise the benchmark to "3 whites = a challenge" or make "X whites = a challenge" and make missions spawn those "X whites" for me, i dont care.
have faith bruddas!
Maybe States could strike a balance between the 'epic' fights of 10 minions vs one hero and appropriate difficulty for large groups. Why not set difficulty so 3 minion = 1 hero for 1-15, 4 minion = 1 hero at 15-30, and 5 minions = 1 hero from 35-45, and 6 minion = 1 hero 45 on. At the same time, push back the 'wall' on purples a level or two so large groups can effectively fight small groups of higher level things and enjoy the difficulty.
The small gradual increase in average minion spawns woud give players the sense of becoming more powerful over the course of the game, while not getting utterly ridiculous in numbers. At the same time, the ability to take on groups of higher levels would give people a reason to form big groups.
And to deal with the problem of needing 48 minions in a room for a group of 8 at 45, why not just have every other team member added have a chance at making the mission a higher level, with a correspondingly smaller number of spawns? That was, an 8 player group at 45 might only draw 24 minions, but theyd be +2s, or even +3s if the purple wall was moved back a bit.
I understand States not wanting to trivialize the minion encounter to the point of roadbumps, like they are now, but at the same time it just doesnt feel very heroic to only be able to take on 3 mere minions at a time when Im level 35, even if they are weilding heavy weaponry. Part of the charm of City of Heroes is the large, fast paced fights.
On another note, if minion difficulty/player effectiveness gets bumped to where 3 minions = 1 hero, Id expect to see an increase in XP across the board, because as it is right now, even doing all your missions, the tier TF, and even the Tier trials, just isnt enough XP to advance to the next tier. Some amount of grinding is almost required, and having to fight smaller battles for reduced XP means the grind will take even longer, and the grind is the enemy of every MMP, its what causes people to burn and quit.
Sometimes the enemy is so swift and the path so treacherous that you can run no further.
It is then that you must turn and resolve to fight
and in all likelihood die horribly
but you never know when you are going to get lucky, so go for it!
- Captain Fwiffo
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If 3 of them equals one of us, and every hero 6 levels under them is meaningless to them, as is the case between them and us, there are enough of them, scattered throughout the city and sourrounding areas that, given the general lack of heroes throughout the rest of the world due to the Rikti War, unchecked super villains would control the remainder of the Earth.
Just playing out the scenario to it's logical conclusion. Even if they were fighting each other tooth and nail, each faction would have it's own continent or so. That's why I can't believe the Earth-native factions having minions as powerful as that being proposed.
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I'm just thinking of the immersion/suspension of disbelief.
Right now, you can find Rikti shooting it out with the military in the Crash Site, and while it's clear that the military is supposed to be outclassed, it's still seen as reasonable that they're sent in there to try to keep the Rikti under control. Sure, they need superheroes to save them, but.
If one 40+ superhero can handle at best three Rikti, then...why is the army even in there? They're getting slaughtered. They'd have to be. I mean, as it stands now, it's on the edge of plausibility.
I don't really have a strong opinion there, that's just what leapt out at me when I was in the Crash Site. I'm willing to test whatever they put on the training room, as it appears that feedback really does make a difference. If the game is more fun due to challenge with three white minions being my match at any level, then groovy.
On the other hand, I do see the points about not feeling as cool after leveling up to 40 and still fighting three minions...and yes, the label "minion" does conjure certain expectations.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Here's my question to everyone doubting the changes in this thread thus far...
Do you enjoy, right now, fighting 3 +4 (purple) minions if they give you a decent challenge and rewards?
If so, why, then, does it matter to you at all if those 3 minions are white or purple, if they're giving you the same amount of challenge and reward? Because that's pretty much what Statesman is trying to do.
If you're the type of person who takes on 6 red minions instead of 3 purple minions... what that's going to turn into is taking on 6 blues instead of 3 whites. Same challenge right now, same rewards... simply changing the colors.
The only thing different is your perception of what the minions "should" be, because you're used to the way it is now.
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Exactly.
I agree with British_Lion above that they really missed the boat when they pitted certain villian types against certain levels. One villian that really gauls me at level 30ish is the escaped convicts. What kind of challenge should normal humans, albiet hardened ones, still in their orange jumpsuits and armed with fists and mundane weapons be for a Hero. None whatsoever. Make them superpowered escapees or something believable.
Also those wanting to fight increasing numbers of baddies aren't rooted in the reality of video card/bandwidth limitations. But I'll concede there is room for some compromise in certain situations where larger numbers of weaker minions might be used.
I agree Kali. I applaud the devs for wanting to make the high end game a challenge, and to move it away from the 150+ pulls we are seeing atm, but at the same time not having any change in 'perceived power' is a bit underwhelming.
To follow on from the poster above you (sorry, forgot the name!) I think a sliding scale could be adopted, perhaps alongside a terminology change. The 'minion' level could get renamed after level 30, because the term itself carries a certain triviality to it. Maybe Bosses become 'Villains' (or even Super-Villains), Lts become Zealot/Convert/Soldier, minions become henchman or flunky?? Its late, so I'm kinda at a loss on the creative naming side of it , so if anyone has an idea, go with it.
One thing that would probably help would be to make the underling class truly trivial - equal to a single, equal level, heavily slotted (250% of base+) moderate attack to defeat. These would be the types that the army is taking on, but as soon as the real soldiers (as in current minion class) arrives, they need hero level help.
Yeah, I'm with you there. It's hard to see a minion as anything but a minion, despire whatever fancy wrapper it's wearing, when they all have the same HP,, worth the same EXP, come in the same arrangements, etc. All of this makes it hard to accept as credible that Nemesis soldiers function on par with Rikti Infantry, who are equal to Malta troopers, who are the same as Carnie entertainers.
It's hard to believe someone the game says it hypnotizing and pickpocketing pedestrians in Peregrine Island is at the same power level as Dimension hopping world invaders who slaughtered most of the world's heroes.