I agree with Statesman, and I agree with Krunch.
And by the way, the enemies you fight at higher levels are not of the same calibur as the ones you fight in Atlas Park. They get stronger, not just in level, but in concept as well. You're arguing about the comic book feel and saying that three Hellions are just a strong as three Freakshow, for instance?
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Minions should be thwompable in droves once you get up there, but the lieutenants and bosses shouldn't.
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Agreed. Minions are like the jumpsuit and helmet-wearing nameless bad guys of the James Bond universe. The hero can take these expendable peons down in droves, but when Jaws or Odd Job show up, he's got a real fight on his hands.
Minions should be tough enough to avoid being AOE alpha-striked, but it shouldn't require an epic struggle to defeat several of them.
I remember fighting three minions as a level 15 tanker. It quite frankly sucked.
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I don't consider being reduced to struggling in a fight with three street thugs as a veteran superhero "lucky" want to decrease XP for minions? fine. buff them a bit? fine. cripple me by making it impossible for me to play.... definitely not lucky. Are they going to clip spawn size? in the high game you barely EVER see spawns that small. Check out PI... huge spaws usally accomanied by a boss or SEVERAL luis. with that kind of equation you'd HAVE to have teams of 3 or 4 to do anything in the post 39 game.
It's a bad damned idea.
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There's a whole boatload of assumptions you're making there. If you're going to assume that everything you have is going to occur, then, yes, that's not lucky. It also doesn't sound very fun to me.
I think you need to scale back on the hyperbole and take a look at what I said.
Now tell me: would you be unhappy if soloing three white-con minions was challenging, fun and profitable?
Those were my assumptions. We can't even debate if we're not going to be looking at the same situation.
Also, yes, I consider us lucky. This dev team is the most open, honest and downright human I've ever seen. Look at the changes Geko made to the super strength powers when Issue 2 went on Test. They changed things in ONE DAY. ONE DAY!
I've never seen a dev team that was willing to act on that kind of timetable.
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Whatever man. this game is already a grind. slow it some more and this conversation will be moot. everyone will go and play the umpity umph other MMO's due out this year and I'll log off for the last time on ANY Of em.... and go wait for freedom force 2. If I wanted to play any other MMO I would have bought everbore, or sims online. And as I said before the so called proposed "fix" to the late game won't mean jack. It'll just mean hanging around brickstown or creys folly for a few more levels, bullying blues and greens. 
You ask me..... there's nothing wrong with the late game. Why do I think this way? The Devs keep adding content at a lightning pace. 2 major updates in just a few months. That's awesome. That's what keeps people coming back. Not a neverending race to mediocre characters.
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Banging on the same 3 minnions at 50 that gave me a run for my money at 10 is not my idea of a hero.
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An interesting straw man, here. It ISN'T the same three mininons. They're level 50 - not level 10 minions. Different art, different powers.
The "super" in "super hero" comes as one levels - what was once hard (i.e. red) becomes orange, yellow, then white, etc. What was once really hard is now easier.
That's how it is in levels 1 to 22ish. It works there.
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If he "gets" it then they'll adjust XP reward to go along with that difficulty increase. If they don't then I know what this is REALLY about. $$$$$$$
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Have you seen my other posts. If we increase HP, we must increase XP - risk = reward.
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And you'll still miss the "feel"
Comon States... you KNOW how important it is that we FEEL like superheroes. it's why you're proposing the buff to tankers.
I just hit 40.... I didn't power level to it. I did the missions.. the task forces... I took fly and slotted it for speed even though the power leveling nay sayers said it sucked. I did It so I could take to the air like the guys I grew up idolizing.l I never played any other MMO. and I didn't buy this one so I could. I bought into it so I could be a super hero. If I can get throttled by 3 even level minions I'm not a superhero... hell I'm not even his boy sidekick.
Why can't you get this? want to slow the power levelers down? reduce the xp rewarded for minions and increase difficulty and XP reward for LT's and bosses.
Have your much vaunted balance.... but please don't relegate me to getting my *** kicked by 3 minions at level 40.
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True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35.
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All I am reading in this statement and the jiist I am getting from the entire Statesman quote is that the Devs are trying to introduce forced grouping.
I'm not sure I want to get onto this bandwagon just yet.
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I agree with Statesman, and I agree with Krunch.
And by the way, the enemies you fight at higher levels are not of the same calibur as the ones you fight in Atlas Park. They get stronger, not just in level, but in concept as well. You're arguing about the comic book feel and saying that three Hellions are just a strong as three Freakshow, for instance?
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Shouldn't we be getting stonger too? maybe they should just cut out minions at the upper levels. a 40 lvl minion to a 40 level hero should be no more threat than a 10th level minion to a 10th level hero. your logic is busted.
im glad Statesman and the rest of the devs have, as their next big priority, upping the challenge level of the game . . . i want to play City of Heroes, not City of Bullies.
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"but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?"
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People can solo two +4 bosses? Jeez! I get lucky doing one with a full load of 2nd and 3rd level Inspirations =P
Keeping fights from becoming trivial is good.
However, superheroes should still be able to feel like superheros without having to beat on blues and greens. At high levels, I feel that a small fight with 2-3 white minions should be trivial for most heroes, while 5 or more should get trickier. LTs should be fairly formidable, and bosses should be downright dangerous. Most bosses seem about right, but LTs could probably use a boost in abilities.
How about adding some function where minions become tougher in packs? Strength in numbers and all that, especially if there is a LT or boss in the group to lead them. The more of them there are, the more confident (HP and maybe small combat bonuses) they get that they can bring down that big bad hero, but as they start being defeated one by one that confidence (bonus) slowly erodes.
Just a thought.
Hopefully these changes will make a balanced team, including all the archetypes, the most efficient way to get experience because each archetype contributes someway to the group in a noticeable manner. In general, at the low end of the game, I have found groups to be a lot more entertaining than soloing. But it has also been nice to be able to create an alternate character and solo to get a feel for how the different power sets and archetypes work.
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An interesting straw man, here. It ISN'T the same three mininons. They're level 50 - not level 10 minions. Different art, different powers.
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Wow, gotta say that response really disappoints me, Jack. They really ARE the very same minions. They are just dressed up in different clothing and have a few different powers. You might see them as very very different. But, many of us see them as just the same minion.
Frankly, as you progress, the game should change. It should not be the same old stuff. Fighting 3 equal minions as balance my whole career as a crime fighter is not very comic book like. Minions tend to be less and less competative to the superhero as they progress along the power path in comics.
I guess what makes your stand the hardest sell with me is the design of the respec trials. They are absolutely anything but "3 equal" minions a hero. Heck, there are times they border on 3 red or purple BOSSES a hero.
I'm glad the devs actually respond to us. That's enough to keep me in COH for a long long time.
On another note, I like the feeling of soloing multiple oranges and yellows (that's all my stamina can handle LOL), that feeling of power makes the game fun at the higher levels and makes u feel like you've accomplished something with your hero.
IMO, make those changes in the Hazard zones where people could lvl much faster with that being the incentive to group. It's not forced grouping like this and everyone will be happy cause people can still solo and make good xp or go to the Hazard zones where the xp is better, but grouped.
This post has degraded. If Statesman had come here saying they made the minions easier and gave more xp for it, then hepeastus and the others would complain about that.
Statesman can come here and say "Purple".
And everyones response would be :
"Yellow"
"Red"
"No Blue"
"I want Orange polka dots"
Anything to disagree, etc.
Were lucky he even reads these boards, most games Devs think they are above thier customers.
Keep up the work States.
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Banging on the same 3 minnions at 50 that gave me a run for my money at 10 is not my idea of a hero.
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An interesting straw man, here. It ISN'T the same three mininons. They're level 50 - not level 10 minions. Different art, different powers.
The "super" in "super hero" comes as one levels - what was once hard (i.e. red) becomes orange, yellow, then white, etc. What was once really hard is now easier.
That's how it is in levels 1 to 22ish. It works there.
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That's exactly what I just posted. I agree with you 100%, Statesman.
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I think the entire CoH community needs to push STRONGLY for Statesman to explain the specifics of this plan.
He says he doesn't care about how fast we level. But there's no way he's going to triple the experience we're earning for even level minions.
So at least my group will slow down dramatically. Becaues we regularly fight +3 and +4s.
And it takes, what, two thousand even level cons for some levels... But, hey, if they multiply the experience you earn by 1.5 that will only be 1300 or so!
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I think you need to take your meds.
If you're regularly fighting +3 and +4 levels, you ARE going to slow down. That's THE PLAN. So understand it.
It's going to get tougher at higher levels. That means it's going to take longer, even if they give more eps per fight. I'm sorry if that bursts your min/max bubble.
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An interesting straw man, here. It ISN'T the same three mininons. They're level 50 - not level 10 minions. Different art, different powers.
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Wow, gotta say that response really disappoints me, Jack. They really ARE the very same minions. They are just dressed up in different clothing and have a few different powers. You might see them as very very different. But, many of us see them as just the same minion.
Frankly, as you progress, the game should change. It should not be the same old stuff. Fighting 3 equal minions as balance my whole career as a crime fighter is not very comic book like. Minions tend to be less and less competative to the superhero as they progress along the power path in comics.
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I agree with this point... but...
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I guess what makes your stand the hardest sell with me is the design of the respec trials. They are absolutely anything but "3 equal" minions a hero. Heck, there are times they border on 3 red or purple BOSSES a hero.
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I disagree with you here. The goal of the respec trials is to be hard. As much as 3 minions = 1 hero is a long-term goal, it isn't the case right now. So they've made it hard relative to the current way the game works. I assume that a lot of the balance on the trials right now assumes that you're fighting at current difficulty levels, and that if they make it more challenging, they'll adjust the trials so they stay challenging, instead of changing to impossible.
The sun has long since settled over the horizon of Independence Port. The cold chill of the sea breeze raises goose bumps along the back of even the most hardened hero. Soon thugs of all shapes and sizes will be making the citizens of Paragon tremble in fear under the cover of the darkness.
From his perch high atop a loading crane, The Dark Avenger spots a group of Tsoo warriors go about their nightly rounds. This time a simple business man who refused to pay their protection money is being assaulted in an alley way.
"Look down there Birdboy." The Dark Avenger's steely voice alerts his sidekick to the activities below. "The Tsoo are pressing their advantage here in the port. Someone should put a stop to this."
"Right Dark Avenger!" The young sidekick prepares to jump into the foray after his mentor. "Lets set these guys straight."
"Whoa, whoa, whoa, there my young sidekick. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I count 2 Lieutenants sorcerers and 3 inkmen minions. Maybe we should call in the Justice Squad for some backup."
Birdboy's jaw drops as The Dark Avenger, Protector of Innocents, Keeper of Peace, Defender of Truth, pulls his Justice Squad Communicator from his utility belt.
"You can't be serious?" Asks the stunned sidekick.
"Dark Avenger calling on all Justice Squad members. We have a code yellow here. Requesting back-up"
Shriek! The Dark Avengers communicator shrieks as the calls from the rest of the Justice Squad filter in. Each hero seems to be held up with his own attempts at battling evil.
"Tauntman here. Got my hands full in Brickstown. I ran across 3 Crey scientists, this might take a while. At least there aren't any Mob Specialists with billy clubs. If I can get to your position I will."
Shriek!
"Dark Avenger? Wonder Chick here. I'm near your position, at the hospital actually. Ran across two Capo Muscles and a Consigliore. I didn't stand a chance. I'll be right there."
Shriek!
"Green Lightbulb here. I'll be right there. This mission is impossible anyway. There's a frickin BOSS in here, no way in hell I can handle that. Stupid contacts. Don't they know I can't handle anything more than 3 minions?"
Shriek!
"Hey DA, This is StormFire. I got Hawk Woman, Speedy Guy, and Martian Man with me. We got our hands full here in Dark Astoria. It'll be awhile till we can get there. Why do all of these mobs have a stinkin Totem in it? No way we can take these guys out."
etc, etc, you get the point.
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Hopefully these changes will make a balanced team, including all the archetypes, the most efficient way to get experience because each archetype contributes someway to the group in a noticeable manner. In general, at the low end of the game, I have found groups to be a lot more entertaining than soloing. But it has also been nice to be able to create an alternate character and solo to get a feel for how the different power sets and archetypes work.
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yeahhhh... and those of us who play at odd hours of the night can always find a well balanced team.... with all the AT's. The game wasn't even designed for that. It was designed for interchangeability.
Blaster-scrapper
tanker-scrapper
tanker-controller
controller-defender
defender-controller.
Honestly I'll team with anyone as long as they aren't simps begging to be powerleveled. I'VE NEVER REFUSED A TEAM INVITE.
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This post has degraded. If Statesman had come here saying they made the minions easier and gave more xp for it, then hepeastus and the others would complain about that.
Statesman can come here and say "Purple".
And everyones response would be :
"Yellow"
"Red"
"No Blue"
"I want Orange polka dots"
Anything to disagree, etc.
Were lucky he even reads these boards, most games Devs think they are above thier customers.
Keep up the work States.
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your presumptions are meaningless. 3 even level minions shouldn't be a challenge for a super hero. plain and simple. and Jack... a level 50 minion might be a challenge to a level 48 hero or 3 to a level 49.... but to a level 50 they should be meat. I'm sorry that's they way you guys designed the game and I guess I've just grown too used to it. It's your baby you go with it... but that's a ride I'm not going to take.
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Have your much vaunted balance.... but please don't relegate me to getting my *** kicked by 3 minions at level 40.
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WHERE did he say this was going to happen? WHERE?
NOWHERE!
He said it was going to be a challenge. Callenge does NOT equal "me to getting my *** kicked". It's pretty obvious that YOU"RE the one who doesn't get it.
States would never say this, but please, go ahead and beat the Christmas rush and LEAVE. Don't blather on about how you're going to take your marbles and play GTA IV. DO IT!
They haven't put it on the test server. They haven't even coded it! And already you're running around like chicken little with his head cut off. "The sky is nerfing, the sky is nerfing!"
Use two hands and get a GIANT GRIP on yourself. For a guy who says he hasn't played other MMORPGs, you don't seem to have any problem with shouting about how things WILL be. I'm guessing you enjoy the game so far, otherwise why would you still be playing it, unless you LIKE paying for things you despise. If you do, that's not exactly a "resume builder".
So please, drop the Chalupa, step back, and let "life's rich tapestry" actually get a chance to run people off the road before you start interviewing "rules lawyers".
Geeze!
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They really ARE the very same minions. They are just dressed up in different clothing and have a few different powers. You might see them as very very different. But, many of us see them as just the same minion.
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True - you could put it that way (which of course, pretty much nullifies the diversity in every other MMP, but I digress), but then one could equally say, "they're the same - just more of them!"
Also - think of the technical ramifications. Let's say that 10 minions equal a hero at level 40. That means that we'd need to stock 80 minions in a single room on a mission when there's 8 heroes. 80 minions. Every room. The performance issues boggle the mind.
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The sun has long since settled over the horizon of Independence Port. The cold chill of the sea breeze raises goose bumps along the back of even the most hardened hero. Soon thugs of all shapes and sizes will be making the citizens of Paragon tremble in fear under the cover of the darkness.
From his perch high atop a loading crane, The Dark Avenger spots a group of Tsoo warriors go about their nightly rounds. This time a simple business man who refused to pay their protection money is being assaulted in an alley way.
"Look down there Birdboy." The Dark Avenger's steely voice alerts his sidekick to the activities below. "The Tsoo are pressing their advantage here in the port. Someone should put a stop to this."
"Right Dark Avenger!" The young sidekick prepares to jump into the foray after his mentor. "Lets set these guys straight."
"Whoa, whoa, whoa, there my young sidekick. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I count 2 Lieutenants sorcerers and 3 inkmen minions. Maybe we should call in the Justice Squad for some backup."
Birdboy's jaw drops as The Dark Avenger, Protector of Innocents, Keeper of Peace, Defender of Truth, pulls his Justice Squad Communicator from his utility belt.
"You can't be serious?" Asks the stunned sidekick.
"Dark Avenger calling on all Justice Squad members. We have a code yellow here. Requesting back-up"
Shriek! The Dark Avengers communicator shrieks as the calls from the rest of the Justice Squad filter in. Each hero seems to be held up with his own attempts at battling evil.
"Tauntman here. Got my hands full in Brickstown. I ran across 3 Crey scientists, this might take a while. At least there aren't any Mob Specialists with billy clubs. If I can get to your position I will."
Shriek!
"Dark Avenger? Wonder Chick here. I'm near your position, at the hospital actually. Ran across two Capo Muscles and a Consigliore. I didn't stand a chance. I'll be right there."
Shriek!
"Green Lightbulb here. I'll be right there. This mission is impossible anyway. There's a frickin BOSS in here, no way in hell I can handle that. Stupid contacts. Don't they know I can't handle anything more than 3 minions?"
Shriek!
"Hey DA, This is StormFire. I got Hawk Woman, Speedy Guy, and Martian Man with me. We got our hands full here in Dark Astoria. It'll be awhile till we can get there. Why do all of these mobs have a stinkin Totem in it? No way we can take these guys out."
etc, etc, you get the point.
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exactly.
Tankers shouldnt worry too much. Unless the plan is to make Tanker unable to tank for groups so is it unlikely that a Tanker wont be able to handle alot more then 3 minions while solo.
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If he "gets" it then they'll adjust XP reward to go along with that difficulty increase. If they don't then I know what this is REALLY about. $$$$$$$
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Have you seen my other posts. If we increase HP, we must increase XP - risk = reward.