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Someone gave a fine example by using Batman. That's what I imagine me as a hero!
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I wonder how well Batman would hold up to some of the stuff in Paragon City.
[/ QUOTE ] Apparently batman would be body bagged by 4 minions. 
And he'd need the entire Justice league to take down killer crock and the penguin.
Given modern writing?
He'd be running the place inside a week.
*Snort* That's a whole other ball of wax, however. 
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Someone gave a fine example by using Batman. That's what I imagine me as a hero!
[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder how well Batman would hold up to some of the stuff in Paragon City.
[/ QUOTE ] Apparently batman would be body bagged by 4 minions.
And he'd need the entire Justice league to take down killer crock and the penguin. No wait scratch that. those guys typically use large numbers of minions and Lt's. They might be able to do it.... but they'd have to have the JSA on standby.
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I just caught another post of Statesman's. Apparently, the experiment of spawn size in Peregrine Island is coming to a close, with an intent to reduce the size and number of spawns there. I concede this would go a ways towards improving the believeability of the capacity inherent to his vision of the 40+ terrestrial origin minion.
ok, i'll admit . . . i DO NOT get it.
currently: let's say you can face off against 3 +5 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.
ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.
you now hunt 3 +1 minions (who are as tough as the old +5 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is +1 instead of +5, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?
so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.
methinks your concern is not with feeling "heroic", but rather just having something to complain about.
p.s. i just hope Statesman is aware that more of us actually do "GET IT" than don't and has the strength to stick to his guns and continue to make the game better day by day.
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I just caught another post of Statesman's. Apparently, the experiment of spawn size in Peregrine Island is coming to a close, with an intent to reduce the size and number of spawns there. I concede this would go a ways towards improving the believeability of the capacity inherent to his vision of the 40+ terrestrial origin minion.
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Yeah... they'd be believable if there weren't so damned many of them.
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Statesman just made sense of all the arguing. It seems that people just don't want to fight 3 minions. The changes they are proposing are fine, all they need to do is call them lieutenants and everyone is happy? That's all they're doing is making minions scale as you level so they're not a trivial encounter.
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Minions should be trivial. They are the grunts, for crying out loud. I don't recall your average minion beinga threat to someone like Batman.
However, I can understand a Rikti minion.. they should be armed to the teeth! Technologically superior. Trained infantry!
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ok, i'll admit . . . i DO NOT get it.
currently: let's say you can face off against 3 +5 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.
ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.
you now hunt 3 +1 minions (who are as tough as the old +5 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is +1 instead of +5, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?
so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.
methinks your concern is not with feeling "heroic", but rather just having something to complain about.
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no that's not it. And if i try and explain it to you I know you'll feign ignorance.... but oh we'll he're goes.
This is supposed to be a super hero game. that's what it's billed as. Only fledgling characters would get beaten down by 3 minions. Now if you want to buy into state's vision you go for it.... but hear me out. The hand are some of the deadliest minion in marvel comics. If they'd faced daredevil early in his career they would have forced those fancy brass knuckles down his throat post haste. After fighting those guys for years he improved to the point where he could wipe the floor with them. Because he was experienced fighting them. I could see getting my *** handed to me by 3 +1 minions.... but a super hero should be able to whack 10 minions of equal level silly.
That is my perception... I'd be willing to shave 2 off that to 6... but three? If that "feels" super to you more power to you. Dosen't feel super to me. If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.
Make such distinctions, balance xp based on that and I'll eat that soup with the crackers. Leave as it is now and tell me that 4 guys in funny hats holding muskets can send me to the hospital.... and I'm expected to "feel super?"
Not buying it.
Or more importantly,... not paying for it. I'm average every day of my life, it's free.
Statesman I have to disagree with you here. The game already seems to scale itself at higher levels as we see more lieutents (1 hero), bosses (3 heroes), archvillains (6 heroes), and eventually regions with multiple monsters (8 heroes).
Your giving everyone on that list to much credit based on power level not role.
Leader is an ArchVillian Abomination is his minion, thats what minion means. Basically a low rent petty thug, who can become major villian, but still a minion.
Rhino is not smart enough to be anything but a minion in for the money, used to be Hulk class minion as strong as Abominatino
. Wrecker maybe a LT because of the wrecking crew, but those idiots are minions
Each of the Asguardian normals would con red to a 50 in this game
Gladator MIGHT be a boss, but mostly is a bootlicker to the throne so minion or LT cause he organizes the minions under him.
Mammoth is a big dumb jewel thief who goes 15 rounds with clark kent every now and then.
Its not about power its about role. Unfortantly, because this is a video game the "role" of the villian is has to indicate the powerlevel, and it ruins the flavor. But all these characters are definatlly minions. They used to try to show this with front loaded missions with weak bosses, but everyone whined.
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
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Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.
When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.
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Well, I'm not level 40 yet, but 28..ish Panthenon Storm Shamans feel a lot like 15+ Tsoo Sorcerors. Level 28ish Nacht feel a lot like level 15 Nacht (except for the occasional Warwolf or Vampyre which is cool) Level 15 Nacht feel a lot like Sky Raiders with less accuracy (except for the porters which give them some uniqueness).
It's by no means "not different" but maybe some in-battle catcalls (instead of just at the start) and more different AI would help differentiate fights. Especially if the catcalls told you what the AI was thinking..."Hear your Oberst my Nacht...you will surround the dumpster and you will wait for them to come out. You will not jump in." 
Where are the really cool zooming jousting air battles? Sky Raiders just seem way too landbound and slow considering their name.
AI + territory can help differentiate fights. How about dark scary slimy tunnels soley full of Alienesque Boss ONLY mobs, with traps designed to split up the heroes so the creatures can quickly eat them. Many fights are in fairly open rooms, and the territory doesn't play into the fight TOO much besides Z-axis range and blocking LOS...
Things like Panthenon Totems are really great to break up monotony, but I could just go grind 20 more minions in the time it takes me to kill one of them so there isn't any incentive for me besides challenge.
What if Boss or other special mobs could drop random rewards "items" that were merely keys to unlock more interesting and special mission content for XP rewards and badges? Like a tiny Totem doll or something in this case...Nacht bathroom pass...whatever...
A form of item hunting that would not unbalance the game with lewt....
Sorry, your definitions can't be correct, else every AV with the exception of Tyrant in the Praetorian arcs would be minions or lieutenants, since that's their relationship to Tyrant (the evil Statesman).
Yeah, thats how I would look at them. Tough, hard to kill, but ultimatly unimportant to the final story cause they aren't the source of the problem. Easily replaced. Lots of comic book baddies have more powerful minions, or hire more powerful ones.
Now you can only take it so far because its a game, and they set up rules we all are used to and if Minions showed up with 3540 hps we'd all be pissed.
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
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Your giving everyone on that list to much credit based on power level not role.
Leader is an ArchVillian Abomination is his minion, thats what minion means. Basically a low rent petty thug, who can become major villian, but still a minion.
Rhino is not smart enough to be anything but a minion in for the money, used to be Hulk class minion as strong as Abominatino
. Wrecker maybe a LT because of the wrecking crew, but those idiots are minions
Each of the Asguardian normals would con red to a 50 in this game
Gladator MIGHT be a boss, but mostly is a bootlicker to the throne so minion or LT cause he organizes the minions under him.
Mammoth is a big dumb jewel thief who goes 15 rounds with clark kent every now and then.
Its not about power its about role. Unfortantly, because this is a video game the "role" of the villian is has to indicate the powerlevel, and it ruins the flavor. But all these characters are definatlly minions. They used to try to show this with front loaded missions with weak bosses, but everyone whined.
[/ QUOTE ]define everyone..
frankly i didn't give a damn one way or the other.
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Also - think of the technical ramifications. Let's say that 10 minions equal a hero at level 40. <snip>The performance issues boggle the mind.
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Then how about making LTs more frequent instead?
A lot of us really enjoy the mook aspect. Being able to swat aside SOMETHING is really fun for us, it makes us feel like superheroes. For people that primarily do missions, all we have as options for this are white-con minions. Underings almost never appear, and those that do... well, it takes me longer to kill a blue swarm (slow powers, smashing resistance) than a white minion.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
define everyone..
frankly i didn't give a damn one way or the other"
Lets see I said "your giving everyone on that list to much credit" refering to the list that was quoted. Mater of fact I don't recall invokeing or bringing in opinions about anyone outside the list or impling you gave a damn. So yes your post is completly out of the blue and makes no sense. Must be hard when your reading comprehension isn't that great.
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
[ QUOTE ]
If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.
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Very good point. If Rikti minion is somehow supposed to be tougher than a Crey minion (which in comic books they would be) there needs to be some way of idnetifying that, and having a reward concurrent with that risk. As it is now all minions are treated the same.
Is a Crey scientist whose main attack is Brawl supposed to be as deadly as a Rikti Soldier with an energy cannon? Should we really swallow the fact that the reward for defeating each should be the same?
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"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
define everyone..
frankly i didn't give a damn one way or the other"
Lets see I said "your giving everyone on that list to much credit" refering to the list that was quoted. Mater of fact I don't recall invokeing or bringing in opinions about anyone outside the list or impling you gave a damn. So yes your post is completly out of the blue and makes no sense. Must be hard when your reading comprehension isn't that great.
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Its not about power its about role. Unfortantly, because this is a video game the "role" of the villian is has to indicate the powerlevel, and it ruins the flavor. But all these characters are definatlly minions. They used to try to show this with front loaded missions with weak bosses, but EVERYONE whined.
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Oh I'm sorry.... did someone else type the word EVERYONE in your statement?
wow how could I miss that 
Must be hard when your memory is so selective you can't figure out what you posted just a few lines ago...
Thanks for the laff man.
Let me spell it out for you... EVERYONE COMPLAINED. your words not mine.... emcompasses me. I thought front loading bosses was neither here nor there. Looks like you "front loaded" my post took it as an insult and decided to flame me.
keep practicing son... one day you might be able to take on 3 even level morons in a verbal debate.
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If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.
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Very good point. If Rikti minion is somehow supposed to be tougher than a Crey minion (which in comic books they would be) there needs to be some way of idnetifying that, and having a reward concurrent with that risk. As it is now all minions are treated the same.
Is a Crey scientist whose main attack is Brawl supposed to be as deadly as a Rikti Soldier with an energy cannon? Should we really swallow the fact that the reward for defeating each should be the same?
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or that even 10 of those pencil knecked geeks could take down a super hero... it's ridiculous.
Post deleted by Benzigami
At the same level? No I'm with you. Rikti should have better drops, or more exp. But hasnt' the generic nature of some of the attacks, defenses, exp, and HP been a issue the whole time. The way it works now a 33 minion is a 33 minion, changing that to the (what was the D&D model 8 point die?) 5hd mob with a range of powers, attacks, and exp is probably not an easy task at this point.
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
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Wow what happened to some of our posters, some of my fav posters are just turning into ignorant biggots wow.
Shame. All I see is "statesman your dumb cause you didnt listen to me" wow pitiful. Bunch of Londons on these boards.
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Biggots? Strong word... and since when is whining to the devs anything new?
It's a tried and true tradition.
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Quality vs. quantity.
Some people want to have tougher fights with three whites.
Some people want to have tougher fights with twelve whites.
What's the difference? Why can't "minions" at level 30 be considered a challenge in groups of three? If they're appropriately scaled up with powers and, most importantly, XP, then it's really just a matter of preference.
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I wanted to quote this to make a point:
I don't want to choose between quality and quantity. I want variety. I want to have situations where I am challenged, and situations where I beat the holy hell out of something. Now, if this means creating "back-loaded" missions, great. I don't need it to be white-con minions that I can swat like bugs, I just want something in missions (you can choose to fight blues and greens outside of missions) that I can smash.
Front loaded missions had the variety, but being frontloaded instead of backloaded made them anti-climactic, as we had nothing to look forward to once we took out the first room or two, so it felt like a waste of time. Also, greys were probably too low, greens should have been the lowest.
If, when you complete the difficulty slider, you had a "back load this mission" checkbox, that kept the overall range the same but skewed down the mobs in the front down to -2, and raised the mobs in the back to either +2, or +1 with more LTs than minions, this would be a nice option...
An option that people who didn't like it wouldn't have to use.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
[ QUOTE ]
At the same level? No I'm with you. Rikti should have better drops, or more exp. But hasnt' the generic nature of some of the attacks, defenses, exp, and HP been a issue the whole time. The way it works now a 33 minion is a 33 minion, changing that to the (what was the D&D model 8 point die?) 5hd mob with a range of powers, attacks, and exp is probably not an easy task at this point.
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Well right now that isn't the case... maybe that's in the planning stage.... but so far all I've heard is 3 white minons = 1 hero. that includes all minions. In other words some circus clown with a bucket on his head is as much of a threat to me as a para military specialist trained to take down meta humans.... dosen't fit.
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Someone gave a fine example by using Batman. That's what I imagine me as a hero!
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I wonder how well Batman would hold up to some of the stuff in Paragon City.