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It is that you never become porportionately more powerful than your enemies. When this is the case, you lose the sense that you're becoming more powerful as you level up.
That's the complaint. I don't care if I'm taking on Hellion grunts or Rikti grunts.
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Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.
When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.
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Yeah... but should'nt we be different? What was the grind for States? On one hand it was about fun.... and the game has been and is fun. On the other hand it was about "becoming" About growing. I don't feel like I've grown a damn bit if at the end of my career 3 minions ( no matter what they are... they are low level shlubs)are able to take me down. And no matter what I do... how carefully I plan and tune my build.... 3 even level minions is the best I can do.... then really what's the point. If that's where we're going let me know now and I'll quit now. I'm saying this with zero animosity towards you and the devs. I just don't want to waste my time grinding to lvl 45 only to find out I'm as helpless as I was at level 20. Seriously I know you can do without my 15 bucks. And I wish you and your development team the best... I hope you have a long and successful run. But the changes you're proposing would turn this game into something else. Something I didn't sign on for.
This is my last statement on the subject. Feel free to e-mail me with your thoughts. I won't share them... you'll just be sparring me the fustration.
I'm not asking to be able to take down 20 even level cons... but 3 is the wrong balance.
And for the record... I like teaming. but I won't be forced into it.
Oh and one last thing... maybe you guys should stop calling this a super hero game. It'll save you the trouble of disillusioned players who know what the inside of a comic book looks like.
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Secondly, you guys call yourselves Tankers?! They should rename this AT to "Bunch of Whiney Old Women(tm)". You guys absolutely disgust me.
Everything from the worst oversimplification (Heph) to someone up there "weeping" about this game. Take a hanky and get a life son. Tankers don't weep.
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Krunch, you should get a freaking medal for that. 
Solo_4114, you hit the nail right on the head as far as I'm concerned. This is a "City of Heroes," yes. But it is also, and here's the kicker, a "City of Villains." The wars we're waging on the streets of Paragon are wars between superheroes and supervillains. As you get stronger, you go after stronger foes, not just larger XP containers. The "minions" you're fighting at higher levels are not the little flunkies you fought in the newbie areas. If you went back to Atlas Park and Galaxy City, you would get the effect you're looking for. Try fighting those Lv 1 minions at Lv 50. Now try fighting Lv 50 minions at Lv 1. Tell me you don't notice a difference.
Stop thinking of yourself as stuck in a level area. In fact, for one minute, forget levels altogether. Maybe that'll put Stateman's point into better perspective.
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3 even level minions shouldn't be a threat or even a challenge to a vetran lv 40 hero... maybe YOU don't get it.
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You keep thinking everyone who disagrees with you doesn't get it. It's real obvious that you, in fact, don't get it.
As to your "why bother" comment, I agree.
Don't.
[/ QUOTE ]I won't and neither will thousands of other players who'll find that CoH heroes are wimps in tights who have to be helped across the street by 6 sg mates. god forbid you get ambushed by 4 even con mobs.... they'll be rolling out the body bags and hearst for the mighty hero...
"Oh man... ultra dude just got his *** kicked by." horribubble.
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We're gonna miss you....
So now, not only can you predict the future, you can predict what thousands of strangers will do. Got the winning lotto numbers there Neo?
You're not going to find "joey, petey, biff and ramone... 4 guys with batons" at 40 level. This has ALL been explained to you, MORE THAN ONCE, in THIS thread. So if YOU want to be full of BS, and continue to bang the rocks together, at least stop polluting this thread with the same stale crap.
Seems a hell of a lot of work to "fix" something that doesn't seem "broken" now. I'm all for upping the difficulty of Lieutenants and Bosses, and, as I said before, adding a rank between Boss and Archvillain. I'm all for adding HP to Minions to compensate for AOE, and as Statesman mentioned earlier, upping the damage of classes that would be incorrectly impeded by this.
But a minion is a minion. There can't be endless numbers of them at the power level proposed without game-world consequences. Consequences the background of Paragon City, at this time, doesn't seem able to bear.
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It is that you never become porportionately more powerful than your enemies. When this is the case, you lose the sense that you're becoming more powerful as you level up.
That's the complaint. I don't care if I'm taking on Hellion grunts or Rikti grunts.
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Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.
When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.
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Statesman just made sense of all the arguing. It seems that people just don't want to fight 3 minions. The changes they are proposing are fine, all they need to do is call them lieutenants and everyone is happy? That's all they're doing is making minions scale as you level so they're not a trivial encounter.
Maybe instead of them all being called minions, they should have seperate naming schemes for them. So you're fighting minions up til around level 20. Then all the different gangs have their own names, but the first tier "minions" still con white. Would that make people feel better?
It just seems like we're all arguing over semantics and perceived power. You're still getting more powerful as you level, you're able to fight mobs with more and more powers and more HPs and different tactics. It's just that people don't like to see "minion" under their names.
Seems easy enough to fix that. Just call them something different and everyone is happy. You're getting to fight harder mobs to feel more heroic, you're getting better xp because the mobs are harder to fight, groups are more fun because you can find challenging groups to fight for great xp and the fights last longer so support classes are more desired. Sounds like a great plan to me.
Only thing you're missing is fighting groups of 15+ mobs solo. I just honestly don't think you're ever going to see that again because you'd have to have 80+ mobs in a group if you were in a full team to get any sort of challenge and rewarding xp.
A few clarifications here because EVERYONE is starting to miss the forest for the trees:
1) Heph: you can disagree all you want. That's your god given right. In the end, the game is going to be what the game is. You will decide to play it or not as it fulfills or doesn't fulfill your entertainment scratch. One thing is guaranteed though ... we will ALL eventually not be playing COH. So in that sense, you are correct .... people will leave as that entertainment itch gets scratched by something else.
2) Knockout Blow on test does indeed one shot an even con minion. You can use it optimally once every 12 seconds with Hasten on. So what?
3) Statesman: for a guy who knows thousands of languages (I think you know 5, but tales of great Ulysses and all) and has more degrees then I have toilet paper in my house right now, you sure can be dumb. First rule of negotiations ... never be the first to mention numbers
4) Trying to cram missions and spawn points full of 100 count minions will wreck my video card so shaddup.
5) I've seen Elves in Spandex in COH already so what's your point?
6) I've also seen the Ambiguous Gay Duo in COH, are you going to argue against closet gays playing this game as well?
7) Yes I would very much like to see you drive a car through a store window. And let me know how many slots it has kthx.
8) Guys this is a game .... take a breath.
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Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.
When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.
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States' I'm seeing a lot of "I see"'s and "To me"'s in your posts lately. Ok, fine, it is your game and your baby. At some point though you are going to need to reconcile "Your Vision" with what the player base and the game design have presented.
Your attempts at forcing players to see the game the way you see it are very short sighted. Guess that is your prerogative, your game and all. I think it is a dangerous way to shape this game though. You risk losing much more than you are going to gain.
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But a minion is a minion. There can't be endless numbers of them at the power level proposed without game-world consequences. Consequences the background of Paragon City, at this time, doesn't seem able to bear.
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I don't understand. I've been under the impression that since the Rikti War, things have gotten pretty bad, and villains are on pretty close though not yet equal footing with the heroes. That's why there are over 180,000 of us, yet we haven't cleaned the city up yet. Nor will we. City of Villains is on the horizon, and to me, all this adds up to mean the villains in Paragon are more dangerous than your average fist-fodder henchmen.
If 3 of them equals one of us, and every hero 6 levels under them is meaningless to them, as is the case between them and us, there are enough of them, scattered throughout the city and sourrounding areas that, given the general lack of heroes throughout the rest of the world due to the Rikti War, unchecked super villains would control the remainder of the Earth.
Just playing out the scenario to it's logical conclusion. Even if they were fighting each other tooth and nail, each faction would have it's own continent or so. That's why I can't believe the Earth-native factions having minions as powerful as that being proposed.
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3 even level minions shouldn't be a threat or even a challenge to a vetran lv 40 hero... maybe YOU don't get it. or do you and the other fanboys expect me to belive that all the minons have been working out while my hero has been sitting on a couch eating bon-bons for 20 levels and not getting any stronger despite the hours I've put into him? and honestly I don't buy into that post 30 game is to easy crap anyways... I've never been able to solo anything above orange safely. I've been held and one shotted, and spent more time in debt than out of it. and my reward for this is being relegated to picking on blues.... geeze why bother.
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Your perception is the problem. Not the game. If you weren't so hung up on having to fight 40-50 enemies at a time, and instead realize that you could fight 3 and get the same benefit when you won, perhaps you could get around to lowering that blood pressure.
In the end, it's an MMORPG. Change is coming. Adapt or get out.
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BS and you know it. In the late game you won't find any groups of THREE EVEN LEVEL MINIONS. Once you hit 40 that means one of two zones to hunt in. Crey's folly or Pegrine Island. I challenge you to find a group anywhere near that size and that level. At level 40 when I do find a spawn I'd even attempt to solo there's a boss or even 2 bosses in the same group. and several lui's and you gotta be careful about taking down the lui's because of vengence.
Maybe your perception is what's flawed... or maybe you're not playing in the same places I am.
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Maybe that's part of the problem. If the sets were scaled back, you would have more available places to hunt, because you aren't looking 4-5 levels higher then you are anymore.
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You got it all wrong man. I won't go near anything even 2 levels higher than me. Not solo. I won't even try and take down more than 3 or 4 red minions.
I don't know what you think my expectations are...
But I NEVER claimed I should be able to solo +4 cons. You got the wrong guy.
Here lies another problem:
Another reason why all they are the same: no incentive. A mob is a mob is a mob. They only give XP. Xp drives us, why fight rikti, when you can fight nemesis? You don't want there to be loot, but what else is there you can do to give me a reason to want to fight any mob type. We have no effect on the game world, either. Killing 1000 rikti doesn't mean we are saving the world. Where is our economic incentive?
You are too focused on the aesthetics. Badges? The ones that don't give me anything, who cares? Dance club? Capes? Auras? Fine. Where is the added gameplay? Where is the added reason to play? I am level 50, I can log on, get a cape and an aura, and still have no reason to want to play after that gets old in an hour. Only thing left is to hunt Hamidon.
Butt Kicking Minions I would not want to face 3 equal con of in real comic books
Abomination
Rhino
Wrecker
Wrecking Crew
Mamamoth
Loki's Giants
Amazons
Asguardians
The entire Shi'ar Imperial Guard includeing the 100 level Gladator who moves planets
Mamamoth again
Guardsmen (Stark flying suit model VII)
Those funky hulkbuster armors Manbots?
War Machine armor
Blob
Toad
Solomon Grundy
The Hand (any 3 of the ninja's you choose, daredevil and wolvie have at least 5 levels on em)
Sabertooth
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
Yeah, that would be the case under normal circumstances, but all the villains are in Paragon City. I guess they're... uh... dumb?
You forgot the Brood.
Perfect example of high level minions. Sure kicked the X-Men's [censored].
Perfect the Brood and the Weaponers of Quard, and evil Kandorians. Clark keeps it a bottle for a reason.
Jack Wolfe Prototype Super Tank, over 25 million in damage taken in the service of others
My 360 hates me and writes about it
Jack's X-Box's Blog
I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness for it shows me the stars. ---Og Mandino---
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True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35.
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All I am reading in this statement and the jiist I am getting from the entire Statesman quote is that the Devs are trying to introduce forced grouping.
I'm not sure I want to get onto this bandwagon just yet.
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Maybe you need to learn to read. Statesman said there would be NO forced grouping. And thier won't. Grouping will still be an option just like Soloing will. The only difference will be the game will be challenging. 
Seryphim : Virtue : Empath/Archery Defender
Fueur-Engel : Virtue : Fire/Thermal Corrupter
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Butt Kicking Minions I would not want to face 3 equal con of in real comic books
Abomination
Rhino
Wrecker
Wrecking Crew
Mamamoth
Loki's Giants
Amazons
Asguardians
The entire Shi'ar Imperial Guard includeing the 100 level Gladator who moves planets
Mamamoth again
Guardsmen (Stark flying suit model VII)
Those funky hulkbuster armors Manbots?
War Machine armor
Blob
Toad
Solomon Grundy
The Hand (any 3 of the ninja's you choose, daredevil and wolvie have at least 5 levels on em)
Sabertooth
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The abomination is a minion? to whom? He's the arch nemesis of the hulk.
The asgardians are GODS....
The Amazons might as well be gods.
Those comparisons are moot... because the heroes in this game aren't that powerful on the best damn day of their lives. Or are you going to sit there and tell me that any tanker in this game could handle even one let alone 3 wonder womans. Hippolitya would send 10 of you to the hospital without getting her boustierre out of order. 
Rhino might be a minion to spider man.... but that's because spidey got more powerful over time... like heroes are supposed to. Rhino in this game would take down whole task forces for kicks. and three of them could clean the clocks of every hero in my super group
Man this is funny.
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The sun has long since settled over the horizon of Independence Port. The cold chill of the sea breeze raises goose bumps along the back of even the most hardened hero. Soon thugs of all shapes and sizes will be making the citizens of Paragon tremble in fear under the cover of the darkness.
From his perch high atop a loading crane, The Dark Avenger spots a group of Tsoo warriors go about their nightly rounds. This time a simple business man who refused to pay their protection money is being assaulted in an alley way.
"Look down there Birdboy." The Dark Avenger's steely voice alerts his sidekick to the activities below. "The Tsoo are pressing their advantage here in the port. Someone should put a stop to this."
"Right Dark Avenger!" The young sidekick prepares to jump into the foray after his mentor. "Lets set these guys straight."
"Whoa, whoa, whoa, there my young sidekick. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I count 2 Lieutenants sorcerers and 3 inkmen minions. Maybe we should call in the Justice Squad for some backup."
Birdboy's jaw drops as The Dark Avenger, Protector of Innocents, Keeper of Peace, Defender of Truth, pulls his Justice Squad Communicator from his utility belt.
"You can't be serious?" Asks the stunned sidekick.
"Dark Avenger calling on all Justice Squad members. We have a code yellow here. Requesting back-up"
Shriek! The Dark Avengers communicator shrieks as the calls from the rest of the Justice Squad filter in. Each hero seems to be held up with his own attempts at battling evil.
"Tauntman here. Got my hands full in Brickstown. I ran across 3 Crey scientists, this might take a while. At least there aren't any Mob Specialists with billy clubs. If I can get to your position I will."
Shriek!
"Dark Avenger? Wonder Chick here. I'm near your position, at the hospital actually. Ran across two Capo Muscles and a Consigliore. I didn't stand a chance. I'll be right there."
Shriek!
"Green Lightbulb here. I'll be right there. This mission is impossible anyway. There's a frickin BOSS in here, no way in hell I can handle that. Stupid contacts. Don't they know I can't handle anything more than 3 minions?"
Shriek!
"Hey DA, This is StormFire. I got Hawk Woman, Speedy Guy, and Martian Man with me. We got our hands full here in Dark Astoria. It'll be awhile till we can get there. Why do all of these mobs have a stinkin Totem in it? No way we can take these guys out."
etc, etc, you get the point.
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exactly.
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the Justice Squad suxxorz!!!
Post deleted by mortiana
I really like States going in keyboard blazing
He must be pissed off a bit (no jokes, no teasing anymore :/ ) but it is a good thing.
Anyways, let me get to my point.
A minion is always a minion, their level is never of any importance to the player. We expect to grow stronger in a way that lets us fight more enemies or higher cons.
From a player's point of view, leveling up to be able to fight the same amount of minions / same cons is a stalemate and not progress.
Even if they are aliens with plasma weapons instead of punks with baseball bats. We take "that" increase in power for granted.
Our stats (in CoH terms, our level) are there so we can keep up with our enemies, our powers, enhancers and inspirations are there to tip the balance in our favor.
Aren't the game designers aware of this?
The more attacks we have, the bigger our alpha strike gets. The more enhancers we can slot, the better our powers work. The more inspirations we can hold, the longer we can last in a prolonged fight.
IF we have to do all of these to keep up with the enemies, then the game suffers from a red queen syndrome (AO comes to mind for example).
IF our hard stats (aka level) are enough, then it is only natural that we can take on massive pulls solo at lv40.
This is a player's take on building a character.
Violence has its own economy. Therefore, be thoughtful and precise in your investment.
Abomination - Archvillain
Rhino - Not quite an Archvillain, appropriate to Villain rank I mentioned above.
Wrecker - Archvillain
Wrecking Crew - Thunderball, Piledriver, and Bulldozer would all be appropriate adjutant Villains to the Wrecker's AV.
Mamamoth - no clue who this is.
Loki's Giants - If you're Thor, yeah these are even con minions. Note how one blow from Mjolnir drops them?
Amazons - Yes, the average Amazon is a minion. See below, but replace with Wonder Woman / Artemis / Hippolyta
Asguardians - Yes, the average Asgardian is a minion. Note, they also need to get saved by Thor, the Warriors Three, Sif, Balder, on a regular basis.
The entire Shi'ar Imperial Guard - Gladiator is easily an AV. The majority of the Guard are Villains, Bosses, and Lieutenant caliber opponents. I do not know of a minion class Guardsman. Now, the Shi'ar infantry that accompany them, that's minions.
Mamamoth again - Who?
Guardsmen (Stark flying suit model VII) - More Lieutenants. I suppose they could be considered minions, and they're not very tough. The original Guardsman was a Villain level opponent
Those funky hulkbuster armors Manbots? The Mandroids? - overrated, and more Boss/Lieutenants, there were only 5 total at a time after all.
War Machine armor - Erm, this was unique. Villain/AV material.
Blob - Villain/Strong Boss
Toad- Boss
Solomon Grundy- Archvillain
The Hand (any 3 of the ninja's you choose, daredevil and wolvie have at least 5 levels on em) - yes, these are minions. Dispatched in bulk, returned in pieces.
Sabertooth - Villain, bordering on Archvillain.
Not many minions on your list, I think you may be confused...
Actually, Krunch, I disagree. I have great respect for Statesman and Co. They do great work. But on this I do not agree.
I don't care if this is an MMORPG. That is not what drew me here. I came because it touched on something greater -- something I love alot, and that's comic books.
I was given the impression that I could become a comic hero. I won't feel like any hero I ever read about when I can only take on 3 minions +1 my level. That's a joke, mate!
I go from level 1-27/28 taking on groups of 3-5 at a time. Now after all that, I've built myself go strongly that I can take more, 10+ more. (Admittedly, it is insane when you see a Tanker or Scrapper tanking 50 mobs at once. And when a Blaster aoe's the crap out of 12-15 mobs at the same time.) But this should not effect my ability to tank (beat the living hell out of) 10-15 mobs at least.
Someone gave a fine example by using Batman. That's what I imagine me as a hero!
Statesman assumes that everyone imagines their character as Super Man or Captain America.
But I have news for ya, some of us are Batman or Spiderman!
He think's (Statesman) its not very heroic to see a level 2 standing next to a level 35 (assuming sidekicked) while a level 40ish is PLing the 2 up. But so what? Some heroes will go to any lengths to attain power to meet their own goals (whether it be vigilante, or vengeance). In this case, said level 2 is making use of said level 40 (assumably his friend) to become stronger through the fastest way possible.
Now Krunch is right, the Brood ARE minions. Note how they're not native to this planet, one of the things I mentioned above as being conducive to the believability of high-level minions?
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It is that you never become porportionately more powerful than your enemies. When this is the case, you lose the sense that you're becoming more powerful as you level up.
That's the complaint. I don't care if I'm taking on Hellion grunts or Rikti grunts.
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Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.
When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.
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Are we sub par replacements to the original heroes in your story? Looking at the numbers from the Rikti invasion in your own backstory, the original heroes took out roughly 1000 Rikti soldiers each before they themselves died. The current heroes are only supposed to be equal to 3 Rikti minions now?
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If that were the case Paragon city would have been a rikti outpost long ago. Crey's folly is full of rik bosses. If 3 minions is one hero then what's one Lui? 2 heroes? one boss? 4 heroes? 5 bosses could level a super group. and leave the minions at home darning their socks.
Future changes, Magister. Reworked spawns will come hand in hand with the changes.