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From a player's point of view, leveling up to be able to fight the same amount of minions / same cons is a stalemate and not progress.
Even if they are aliens with plasma weapons instead of punks with baseball bats. We take "that" increase in power for granted.
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What a load of bull. Seriously. Let's have a nice comparative reality check here, ok? Remember the ol' debt wars when people would say "And this is how it is!" yet were blown out of the water when CoH was compared to other games? Here goes.
EQ - Even con ment 1 mob, maybe 2 if you were extremely lucky on the low end. As far as I got in that game (which, admittedly, wasn't that far) it was still 1 even con mob was a decent fight and 2 was pushing it. You wanted to take on more, you got more people though they tended to do the dumb thing and instead of taking on mass of whites took on an orange or red.
AO - 1 Even con was an even fight against a player. It was that way at level 1 and was that way when I quit my MA in her 50s and was that way when I quit my doc about a year after release in her 70s. It was still that way when I gave it another month when my doc was in her 80s.
Shadowbane - Even con was a tough fight for a player. Was that way at level 1. Was that way 3 months later when I quit in my 50s with a soft level cap of 60.
Horizons - Even con was a tough fight for a player. Was that way at level 1. Was that way 2 months later when I quit in my 40s of the then level 100 cap.
AC2 - Even con was a tough fight. Was that way from 1 to 14 or so when I quit.
EnB - same thing for the time I spent in it (a week).
The only MMORPG, only MMORPG where a solo "even" mob did not equal a player that I have personally played was Asheron's Call. AC had no "con". You looked at a mob and it had a level. That level determined if you got full xp or degraded xp as it's level went under yours. Even then some mobs were a tough fight at even level but lots weren't. You could take on 4-5, 10, 15 at a time. But you had to be stocked properly.
But here's the catch. In AC, depending on your build, the first few levels didn't really count. AC's system was wacky in that it rewarded melee players to minimize their endurance and thus their stamina and hp to maximize their offense and defense. So most melee players started off with the minimum and could literally be 1-shot by most mobs out there.
But get into the high single-digits and it started to even out. By the low teens (about level 4-5 on CoH) and the toons all hit their stride. They could take on about 4-5 mobs simultaniously if they were smart but no more than 6. More than that and they dropped. They could keep that same 6 engaged as long as their supplies lasted. Once it ran out, that was it.
So in the mid-teens it was 5-6 Banderlings or Mossies.
Late teens the entryway of the Lugian Citadels or the BSDs.
20s through 30s, the deep Citadels or the deep BSDs.
30s-35s, the OHN (old one)
35-50, the OHN and some of the Olthoi dungeons on ML
50-65 or so, the Evis. Lair or the Tusker dungeons on the monkey isle.
etc, etc, etc....
So the one example of multi-mob-on-single PC held to the same patter. There was a magic number, either you could take on 1 really rough mob (which normally wasn't worth it) or you could take on 4-5, maybe 6 "even" mobs at a time and survive. More than that, you're toast.
The mobs got harder. The heroes got tougher but the status quo pretty much was the same.
So please, spare me the "oh, gee, we should be able to fight more minions even though those minions are so much harder because that's what we expect". If you expect it it is because of the admited problem in post-22 (I'd say 24, 3 levels to get decked out in SOs on the combat powers) difficulty. According to published stats you should realize you're overpowered and by the mere fact that the support roles drop off around then in their usefulness to soloists should tell you a lot.
And don't give me that "forced grouping" load, either. I'm so sick of that bull. People are screaming that every time there's the slightest hint of having to actually come in contact with another player. AC was one of the most solo friendly MMORPGs out there, still is. Even so every time a quest dungeon came out, even ones which required 2 teams to flip physically separated switches, there wasn't this much whining and BS thrown at the devs. It was cool and fun and exciting. So what that you needed a decent group to do it. Those who got over their anti-social hangup got cool stuff. I hope CoH follows suit. Not everything should be soloable. Deal with it.
Don't give me that "other games don't do this." They do.
And finally, newsflash, the post-22 difficulty problem adversely affects tankers. You want the changes to come about. Why? Well not like tankers are blowing through the mobs now like the blasters and scrappers are. But they sure don't need you to take on the larger stuff but you do need them. Mull that over.
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They really ARE the very same minions. They are just dressed up in different clothing and have a few different powers. You might see them as very very different. But, many of us see them as just the same minion.
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True - you could put it that way (which of course, pretty much nullifies the diversity in every other MMP, but I digress), but then one could equally say, "they're the same - just more of them!"
Also - think of the technical ramifications. Let's say that 10 minions equal a hero at level 40. That means that we'd need to stock 80 minions in a single room on a mission when there's 8 heroes. 80 minions. Every room. The performance issues boggle the mind.
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Well, Statesman, I see little benefit in insisting on dressing villains you are "balanced to fight in triplets" in white uniforms through all levels. If it makes the players feel more heroic to fight the same friggin villains their heroes are "balanced to fight in triplets" dressed in deeper and deeper purple as their heroes progress in level, I think you ought to just let them have what they want.
It's not like higher level characters can't read the level numbers and absolutely need their "con" to be color-coded. Now if you are really worried about color-coding "con" at higher levels, you can always do two level difference per color or maybe even add more colors (light red, dark red, light orange, dark orange, you get the idea).
So maybe your hero starts out "designed to fight" triplets of the same level, then end up "designed to fight" triplets of 58 when the heroes are 50. Mission difficulties will be adjusted according to what you are "designed to fight" at your level, of course. Yeah sure, at level 50 they can take on 200+ level 50 minions with ease (How's that for feeling heroic?), but the risk is so low that the reward is virtually non-existent. The color of the uniform is just for looks, the risk-vs.-reward is where the real beef is.
As long as the reward is the greatest fighting triplets, people will fight the triplets instead of 150+ +2s. Statesman, do you realize that what you are proposing is essentially undoing the purple patch, upping mission villain levels, and dressing the villains in brand spankin' new white uniforms?
The only point I'd like to make here is that Cryptic managed to make the TV trial fun and challenging for a full group WITHOUT tossing 300 mobs at them. (Ignoring for a moment all the arguments about whether a challenge for the respec trial is appropriate)
Higher cons, and more bosses/lieuts solve the performance issue admirably. Say what you will about it; the TV trial certainly FELT superheroic to me.
It may be an illusion, but I have to agree with others who want a demonstrable rise in relative power as a character gains levels. Yes, I know every other MMO out there treats an even con the same way throughout the game. Personally, that's what set CoH APART for me.
I really hope that if Cryptic pushes this huge change through, that they also consider rebalancing missions to give us some of the old 'feeling' back. For instance, throw a bunch of green minions at us, and a few tougher even level cons. Nothing makes you feel like a superhero quite so much as plowing through hordes of minions. 
IMO, of course.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I ddin't mean a mission slider Doc, sorry for the confusion.
I meant a sliding scale in the X minions = 1 Hero as levels increase, but nothing like the degree proposed elsewhere that had X=30 at level 50. That is just ridiculous, completely unnecessary and even counter to comic-book feel - such mass battles are very much the exception in comics. But going up to 6 or 8 "minion equivalents" at 50, while at the same time actually replacing minions with Lts, bosses and even monsters, gets the playing field back into the 1 vs 3 arena, without players feeling like they have lost too much.
As for the tantrum throwing when the changes get implemented - yeah, its gonna happen. But it'll happen if there is a 10% drop in perceived power just as much as if there is a 300% drop. The powergamers will adjust rapidly (and make scads of XP while various imbalances are being worked out), the 'average' player will be wondering why the spawn sizes just dropped, then once they get through the first fight or three be very glad the numbers in each spawn have dropped, seeing how tough the enemies are.
The power doesn't really work for the game, for the reasons Statesman points out. Large teams are SOL, non-damage dealers are second-class citizens, gameplay has been reduced to highly dubious herding and mass slaughter, not tactical gameplay and team interaction. There are better ways of giving a sense of being a superhero than judging how tough a character is based on unbalanced foes. Personally, being able to round up 50 odd minions or go toe-to-toe solo with a boss 6 levels above me doesn't make me feel like a superhero, it just makes me think the game is broken, because it doesn't fit the design I bought into at the beginning From my point of view (which I admit is not typical) being able to tank 150 mobs because they are too weak to do anything to affect me is just as broken a situation as SG is before the fix hits it in Issue 2 - both are unintentional, both break gameplay from the design, both need fixing. People are going to get a shock - which means the devs need to shout these changes from the rooftops day after day once they have enough of it set. But it does needs to be done, and to a relatively extreme degree (though, as I said at the beginning, perhaps less extreme than 3 minions = 1 Hero even at level 50).
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I meant a sliding scale in the X minions = 1 Hero as levels increase, but nothing like the degree proposed elsewhere that had X=30 at level 50. That is just ridiculous, completely unnecessary and even counter to comic-book feel - such mass battles are very much the exception in comics. But going up to 6 or 8 "minion equivalents" at 50, while at the same time actually replacing minions with Lts, bosses and even monsters, gets the playing field back into the 1 vs 3 arena, without players feeling like they have lost too much.
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I like mass battles a lot but I recognize limits of video cards, etc. and would like to see more bosses, looies, and monsters and tougher ones in fights, but please give me a REASON to fight them. This game reminds me of nothing so much as Diablo II in the way it plays. Remember how much fun the end of level bosses were? You could get an entire level instantly for killing some of them, and usually unique drops, battles that got insane on hell mode with the maximum difficulty scale... sometimes even in the middle of the level if you had a unique monster appear with a random lightning shield power....
Rewards for fighting bosses/harder missions could take several forms without breaking the system:
Massive XP (Truly Massive: POW an entire level granted for an uber hard mission designed to kill heros until the ventilation in the building stops due to the ducts being full of dead Captain Atomics and SuperJanes)
Access to specialized and unique missions.
Seeing an enemy you can fight nowhere else.
Story/immersion.
Badges.
So what if massive XP reward caters to powergamers and they level really fast? People are going to eat up content at different rates anyway, and either reroll some new characters and do it all again in a different way or leave...some might even stick around for the community. Personally I'd just go to a chat room for community (If I actually cared about online communities that is...maybe if I needed TF style groups on a regular basis I might but that is a whole other can of worms).
Regarding story and immersion as a reward, I felt like my first set of clockwork missions was worth it when I ran into my first Clockwork Prince as the mission boss, which said my name and then broke into Gears when killed. Little complexities and surprises like that in games are worth seeing IMO. Of course by the time I did my 7th or 8th Synapse TF I was sick of them but by then the Clockwork King made that unique. More random surprises a la' scripted events in the middle of a mission would help too to make characters feel in the center of the story and hence more superheroic also. Even if a particular mission from forgettable generic contact V was non-scripted warehouse X full of generic villain groups V1 through V10 and reused 100 time polygon model with identical powers to street bosses Q, I would still be interested in slogging through it and entertained if I got through an entire level for it or halfway through a level or something to get to that shiny new power.
Far more interesting, rewarding, and superheroic feeling though to have maybe some +10 uber Boss that is sicced on your group at the beginning of the mission, who being unkillable, chases you through the entire thing while you look for bombs to disarm or something like some of the resident evil games. A real threat to deal with to make that XP grinding not a grind anymore. If my moving from group to group on the street is not really that different from moving from group to group inside a warehouse mission it's not going to matter.
Too many of these game discussions devolve into damage/risk/reward/this or that number or color con tweak. Where's the creativity people? I still want to know when I will be able to rescue a bus of schoolkids falling off a cliff and get XP for it!
P.S. For my part though, I appreciate feeling more powerful when I go up in level too. I suppose if a minion is a bristling with missiles flying robot from another dimension with a highly advanced neural network AI, he should act like it and not blindly follow me plodding along into a dumpster or down an alley. That might make me feel better about my superheroic ego when three of them kick my *** even though they are still called "Minions". He should also laugh about it "Foolish human, did you think your puny synapses could outwit the quantum attack algorithms of ZETA-1101?!"
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The only point I'd like to make here is that Cryptic managed to make the TV trial fun and challenging for a full group WITHOUT tossing 300 mobs at them. (Ignoring for a moment all the arguments about whether a challenge for the respec trial is appropriate)
Higher cons, and more bosses/lieuts solve the performance issue admirably. Say what you will about it; the TV trial certainly FELT superheroic to me.
It may be an illusion, but I have to agree with others who want a demonstrable rise in relative power as a character gains levels. Yes, I know every other MMO out there treats an even con the same way throughout the game. Personally, that's what set CoH APART for me.
I really hope that if Cryptic pushes this huge change through, that they also consider rebalancing missions to give us some of the old 'feeling' back. For instance, throw a bunch of green minions at us, and a few tougher even level cons. Nothing makes you feel like a superhero quite so much as plowing through hordes of minions.
IMO, of course.
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Exactly, Obitus. All I want is a way to measure my hero's capabilities as he grows from a fledgling hero into a experienced, seasoned hero. The best way to do this, is by using MINIONS as a yard stick.
At level 10, 3 even con minions provide a decent challenge for one main reason: 1) Your hero only has a select few powers. But at level 30, your hero has grown considerably in both experience and power (Minions don't get this form of growth ie multiple powers). Now your hero has many powers and strategies to fall back on to dispatch the badguys. So in my minds eye, the hero should be much more capable versus nameless, faceless lackeys (read: minions) and should, as levels are gained, be able to handle more and more MINIONS.
I am not saying the hero should be able to handle many Lieuts or Bosses, just MINIONS. This would go a long way in preserving the HERO feel of the game.
Here is my definition of the 3 main bad guy ranks:
Minion - a faceless, interchangable, nameless individual who's sole purpose is to delay or weaken (through numbers) the Hero to buy the Boss more time to organize or flee or what have you.
Lieutenant - a competent, skilled individual who has made a mark in whatever organization. No longer faceless, they have proven themselves and are more then capable of giving the Hero a good fight.
Boss - Right hand men, hand picked by Crime Lords (read: AVs) to run operations. Bosses have honed their skills and are ruthless. Any one Boss is more then capable of taking the fight one on one with hero.
So for all of you "lets make CoH into EQ difficulty post 30" I'm saying:
- Yes make Bosses and Lieuts HARD, again!
- Yes make it so I can't fight purples solo!
- Yes make the game scale the same as pre level 22!
- NO!! Do not make Minions rediculously hard. Make Minions the canon fodder of CoH. Make Minions the "yard stick" that allows hero's to judge their growth as they gain levels.
But you say "How can the game be balanced when Minions are a cakewalk? Easy, just retune encounters so that Minions are almost always maxed group for the appropriate level or are mixed with Lieuts/Bosses. Dont let me find small packs of weak Minions at level 30+ make the encounters mean something! BUT let me be a damn Super Hero while I'm doing it!
HOLY CRAP.
I leave you kids alone for a few hours and I when I get back you've had a huge fight in front of the Greatest Hero on Earth, Statesman.
This is why your mother and I can't go out! 
Okay:
So the Kingpin hires three thugs to harrass ol' Daredevil. These three street punks get trounced by DD in mere seconds. We call these punks "Hellions" or "Skulls". Kingpin then hires another three goons, except these goons are highly-trained and have cool high-tech equipment purloined from the government. These guys are a bit of a challenge, but DD sends them packing, too. We call these goons "Sky Raiders" or even "Fifth Column". Kingpin is the archvillain.
Okay, so what's the difference between these two fights? COMBAT LEVEL.
The Hellions are grey-con to Daredevil, being a level 30 scrapper. The Sky Raiders are blue or white to him, as they are as highly-trained as he.
Minion =/= pushover
Minion, Lt., Boss, Archvillain simply refer to their place in the power structure of crime.
Some zones have higher-level villains hanging out with their lower-level allies (e.g., Family and Outcasts in Steel Canyon). There are also plenty of examples of rival groups in conflict, albeit mock combat since they aren't actually hurting one another.
Perhaps there could occasionally be a few occurences of real fighting between the rivals... For example, some low-level Outcasts wander into Tsoo territory in IP. Then players get to see the Tsoo minions demolish the Outcast minions and, in the process, providing a great example of "a minion is not a minion is not a minion."
In this example, the Outcasts could be configured similar to portal spawns, where low-level players couldn't "KS" the Tsoo and take that last bit of life from the Outcasts for xp.
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They really ARE the very same minions. They are just dressed up in different clothing and have a few different powers. You might see them as very very different. But, many of us see them as just the same minion.
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True - you could put it that way (which of course, pretty much nullifies the diversity in every other MMP, but I digress), but then one could equally say, "they're the same - just more of them!"
Also - think of the technical ramifications. Let's say that 10 minions equal a hero at level 40. That means that we'd need to stock 80 minions in a single room on a mission when there's 8 heroes. 80 minions. Every room. The performance issues boggle the mind.
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Statesman is right. They can't fill missions up with that many villians. I believe that because we worked our butts off to get to our security level, then the villians we fight at our same security level did the same. It makes good sense to me. Some believe that 'because I am lvl 40 now, I should be able to handle 10 minions when at lvl 15 I could only handle 3'. Well at lvl 40 you can handle 10 minions but not lvl 40 minions. That is my opionion.
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It is that you never become porportionately more powerful than your enemies. When this is the case, you lose the sense that you're becoming more powerful as you level up.
That's the complaint. I don't care if I'm taking on Hellion grunts or Rikti grunts.
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Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.
When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.
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I do see Statesman's point. You simply can't compare a level 40 minion to a level 5 minion just by making them the same level. Think about it from this perspective.
Take that level 40 minion, reduce them to level 5 and drop them, otherwise unchanged, into Altas Park. Do you think a hero of level 5 could handle the powers that previously level 40 minion has? Alternatively, if you took that level 5 hero and propped him up to level 40, he would not be a challenge because he has no challenging powers.
People complained about Shockers having Hurricane. Characters can't handle Hurricane on a pretty common enemy at the low level they were encountered. They complained enough that the power was switched to the boss mob instead, which is supposed to be tougher anyway. There are certain things that a low level hero can't deal with that a higher level can.
So, it is really a problem with our point of view. The problem is the game currently supports the point of view that the players are used to. We're used to being able to take on higher cons as we get to SOs because the even cons are just too easy. We equate that to gaining power. Since missions don't spawn +3 and +4 stuff, they become way too easy. By fixing this, the game will be much better balanced overall.
It will take time to shift our perspective over what we can handle now and what it will be then. There will be complaints. I do see that it will be better in the long run, though.
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Okay:
So the Kingpin hires three thugs to harrass ol' Daredevil. These three street punks get trounced by DD in mere seconds. We call these punks "Hellions" or "Skulls". Kingpin then hires another three goons, except these goons are highly-trained and have cool high-tech equipment purloined from the government. These guys are a bit of a challenge, but DD sends them packing, too. We call these goons "Sky Raiders" or even "Fifth Column". Kingpin is the archvillain.
Okay, so what's the difference between these two fights? COMBAT LEVEL.
The Hellions are grey-con to Daredevil, being a level 30 scrapper. The Sky Raiders are blue or white to him, as they are as highly-trained as he.
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Unfortunately this concept doesn't work in CoH. What possible reason would a level 30+ have for pounding on a bunch of Helions??
What I am suggesting is let me fight more Minions of MY level as I gain levels to give the ILLUSION (and yes admittedly its smoke and mirriors boys and gals) that I am becoming more powerful as I gain powers, levels, experience, strategies, etc...
How does this break the game. I'm still all for Liuetenants and Boss's scaling at a constant rate throughout the hero's life but allow me the dignity to at least PRETEND I'm a superhero by taking on more and more flunkies as I become a seasoned Hero. And again I'm not saying lets take 12 4+ purple minions. I'm just saying let me dish out the justice to 6 or 8 minions OF MY LEVEL at 45+....
/signed
Please let me be a Super Hero !
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I'm still all for Liuetenants and Boss's scaling at a constant rate throughout the hero's life but allow me the dignity to at least PRETEND I'm a superhero by taking on more and more flunkies as I become a seasoned Hero. And again I'm not saying lets take 12 4+ purple minions. I'm just saying let me dish out the justice to 6 or 8 minions OF MY LEVEL at 45+....
/signed
Please let me be a Super Hero !
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I believe that because we worked our butts off to get to our security level, then the villians we fight at our same security level did the same. Some believe that 'because I am lvl 40 now, I should be able to handle 6 minions when at lvl 15 I could only handle 3'. Well at lvl 40 you can handle 10 minions but not lvl 40 minions. That is my opionion.
When they give us the ability to change the difficulty of our mission, then you can choose an easier setting and be able to handle larger numbers. I prefer to choose the difficult setting and be on the verge of having my butt handed to me as I test my super-hero abilities (or my personal game playing skills) and prevail.
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Statesman is right. They can't fill missions up with that many villians. I believe that because we worked our butts off to get to our security level, then the villians we fight at our same security level did the same . It makes good sense to me. Some believe that 'because I am lvl 40 now, I should be able to handle 10 minions when at lvl 15 I could only handle 3'. Well at lvl 40 you can handle 10 minions but not lvl 40 minions. That is my opionion.
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Lieutenants and Bosses.... I agree they have worked their butts off. Both types get access to more then 1 or 2 attacks and that is partly what makes them challenging.
Minions? On the other hand Minions are faceless, nameless hirelings that just do what they are told. These are the canon fodder of the hero universe. They have limited skills and limited powers. So how on earth can they truly be compared to a hero? They are not equals to hero's... plain and simple.
I want Minions to be challenging. Don't get me wrong. the current system is FLAWED. But I also want the illusion that my Hero is some big, tough badass protector of the innocence. I want Minions to be a YARD STICK from which I measure the potency of my ever growing, ever evolving Hero.
Lets take a look at things from a level perspective:
At level 5, 3 even con minions are a challenge right? Now why is that? Lets see.. at level 5 I have maybe 3 attacks at the most. I have very limited combat capabilities and the Minions I'm fighting are proportionately similar.
At level 30+ I now have over a DOZEN skills both offensive and defensive. The Minions of my level, on the other hand, are still using a very FEW basic abilities.
So from my point of view, Minions should be slowly getting weaker and less impressive as I become more and more formidable....
QF
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So from my point of view, Minions should be slowly getting weaker and less impressive as I become more and more formidable....
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I understand your point. Then what we need to see at the higher levels is less and less minions and more and more leut. and bosses. *switching to software developer mode* That way the missions don't have to bog everybody's computer down (or the servers) by multplying the number of minions in the mission by team members * 10. We should get more and more tough villians to keep the numbers down.
But I just want to add for the record:
I don't want to be able to mow done 12+ minions.
I think soloing even a purple (+4) minion is unbalanced.
Lieuts and Bosses should always be dangerous oponents, regardless of level. I should not be able to solo 2 orange Bosses without fear of death. 1 Boss should be a scary battle.
Minions should be challenging but should slowly scale downwards as the hero gains more and more power. For every level higher in con, 1 or 2 minions should be subtracted from what the hero can deal with at a time.
For example at level 40:
6 white minions
4 yellow minions
2 orange minions
1 red minion
0 purple - better get friend bub... that's what grouping is all about.
But please don't forcefeed me crap that minions are able to compete at 33% of a hero's capabilites when a hero is making leaps and bounds in personal growth and minions are still needing their mother's to wipe their noses (ie still have limited abilites).
QF
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I understand your point. Then what we need to see at the higher levels is less and less minions and more and more leut. and bosses. *switching to software developer mode* That way the missions don't have to bog everybody's computer down (or the servers) by multplying the number of minions in the mission by team members * 10. We should get more and more tough villians to keep the numbers down.
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I can live with that compromise. Would make sense too. As the Hero becomes more and more of a "problem" with the local crime lord, the AV would assign more and more of his "best" people to thwart the hero. Sending goons to protect a base or secure a "shipment" just isn't working anymore.
However I would still like to see the instances where the Hero has to wade through a pack of goons here and there (and still have them be a challenge - not a bunch of greys fro crying out loud). Just not a whole mission filled with them...
Edit:
And from a grouping standpoint, I think the Dev's could easily insure that Minion spawns don't get out of hand. The more hero's grouped in a mission the more Lieuts and Bosses would spawn and the less, minions would be encountered (with the exception of rounding out a group of badguys).
Change the documentation or charge the game. paper sounds easier, but I'd rather keep the same color coding the whole way throught he game, as long as XP is scaled appropreately.
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Hear Hear. This is the ONE issue I have with the game (I apologize to only making it to page 4 of this thread).
Hey even better- how about add the MOB powers into the color coding - Geez. A BLUE underboss is a CHALLENGE! A Purple Totem is a wimp. Maybe if we could get a more dynamic color coding based on what the mobs do versus just their level and their rank....
When we get stronger, so should the villians. There is something BROKEN in the game when you just end up having to go up the color sheet as you gain levels. I am 1000% for the changes on test that have made the outcasts etc. alot harder. The game MUST become harder - it will increasing grouping WITHOUT affecting solo'ers - they just will have to start hunting what they used to hunt- things at their own level range.
My solo lvl20 MA/SR scrapper has no problems against +1 red bosses, 2 or 3 Oranges, or a whole wack of yellows.
My buddy and I at lvl 25 only hunt (as a two person team) - MOBS of 10 * lvl 29 Purple minions (DA) or 6 - 8 reds (IP) with a boss or two thrown in. In general, we are playing against minions + 4, Lieuts + 3 or 4, and bosses between +2 and +4. This is just silly.
I guess what I am saying is that as we grow stronger, so do the mobs - so rescale this game so that the colors MEAN the same thing throughout the game instead of really only meaning it until you hit your 20's, get your premium powers start coming in and things get out of wack.
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I understand your point. Then what we need to see at the higher levels is less and less minions and more and more leut. and bosses. *switching to software developer mode* That way the missions don't have to bog everybody's computer down (or the servers) by multplying the number of minions in the mission by team members * 10. We should get more and more tough villians to keep the numbers down.
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I can live with that compromise. Would make sense too. As the Hero becomes more and more of a "problem" with the local crime lord, the AV would assign more and more of his "best" people to thwart the hero. Sending goons to protect a base or secure a "shipment" just isn't working anymore.
However I would still like to see the instances where the Hero has to wade through a pack of goons here and there (and still have them be a challenge - not a bunch of greys fro crying out loud). Just not a whole mission filled with them...
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Totally agree. That is another way of solving the problem aside from what I commented on above which is scaling colors to actual MOB powers (anyone with a mez affect - auto + 1 
)
And totally agree - throwing in a mass minion spawn would be fun - but as cannon fodder - i.e. when you step in the door and then you are done with them!
Lets take a look at things from a level perspective:
At level 5, 3 even con minions are a challenge right? Now why is that? Lets see.. at level 5 I have maybe 3 attacks at the most. I have very limited combat capabilities and the Minions I'm fighting are proportionately similar.
At level 30+ I now have over a DOZEN skills both offensive and defensive. The Minions of my level, on the other hand, are still using a very FEW basic abilities.
So from my point of view, Minions should be slowly getting weaker and less impressive as I become more and more formidable....
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well there's the flaw. When you are going up against higher level villians, do they really need to recruit morons - I assume there is SOME prestige in being part of a more nefarious gang? Don't they audition to belong? They should also have some tricks in their sleeves or they would die in their audtion or be laughed at and be sent back to the PPark streets to hang out with the other minion losers
I'm all for keeping the challenge consistent as you level. If you want to see progress, try taking on three minions that are three levels higher than you are. If the game is harder and you can't do it, try coming back in three levels and doing it again. If you can handle them easily now, then you're progressing in power with your levels. As you level you can take on things that are more challenging than before, so you are becoming more 'super'.
I do agree with some of the posters about not wanting to see scientist minions at level 30. Perhaps make certain minions into underlings (i'm thinking some Family and 5th column and all Prisoners for sure).
They could also make a new bad guy category called 'elite minion' or someting like that. They can put some of the Tsoo, Freaksow, Rikiti and others in that category. It would be between minion and Liutenant and would properly show the difference between a non-superpowered bad guy like a Family Gunner and a high tech or super-powered bad guy like the Freakshow.
You will not see three baseball bat weilding Skulls that are level 40 and being as hard as they were for you at level 10. If the same Skull minions were to become the same challenge for you at 40 as they were at 10, they would come back with high tech body armor, or with a new strain of Superdine pumping in their veins.
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But I just want to add for the record:
I don't want to be able to mow done 12+ minions.
I think soloing even a purple (+4) minion is unbalanced.
Lieuts and Bosses should always be dangerous oponents, regardless of level. I should not be able to solo 2 orange Bosses without fear of death. 1 Boss should be a scary battle.
Minions should be challenging but should slowly scale downwards as the hero gains more and more power. For every level higher in con, 1 or 2 minions should be subtracted from what the hero can deal with at a time.
For example at level 40:
6 white minions
4 yellow minions
2 orange minions
1 red minion
0 purple - better get friend bub... that's what grouping is all about.
But please don't forcefeed me crap that minions are able to compete at 33% of a hero's capabilites when a hero is making leaps and bounds in personal growth and minions are still needing their mother's to wipe their noses (ie still have limited abilites).
QF
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Careful about the 2 orange bosses wish. There are missions in a clue train that have 2 orange bosses at once in the teens. Many people want to solo those missions. It should be possible to solo two orange bosses, though not easily.
As Statesman said, though, making more than 3 minions = 1 hero makes missions way overpopulated when group size increases. I do wish it was more than 3, just because you often see more in the comics. 3 is probably the best balance between performance and comic simulation.
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Wow, gotta say that response really disappoints me, Jack. They really ARE the very same minions. They are just dressed up in different clothing and have a few different powers. You might see them as very very different. But, many of us see them as just the same minion.
Frankly, as you progress, the game should change. It should not be the same old stuff. Fighting 3 equal minions as balance my whole career as a crime fighter is not very comic book like. Minions tend to be less and less competative to the superhero as they progress along the power path in comics.
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Don't take this wrong.....I am just trying to state what I think is the misconception going on....and I tend to ramble....so I apologize......
1. Superman still stops normal street thugs robbing a bank. He doesn't look at them and say "Hey, those are just minions and are beneath me to fight."
2. Superman also is not beating up bad guys to "become" more powerful and "level" up.
I still stop in Atlas park and save the woman from being mugged by level 2 Hellions. Why? Cuz that is what a super hero does. *I do look to make sure no low level heroes are looking to beat these guys up though first*
But SINCE Statesman and the other devs want us to grind levels I do understand the frustration of the......hey 3 minions that I defeated in Atlas Park made my exp bar move a good bit.....and now at 35, I beat up 3 minions and I don't even see it budge.
I believe the intent was that Statesman's quote at the beginning of this thread was that he understands people want 1. A Challenge and 2. FUN.
Beating on 2 million minions to get a level and more powerful is not fun.
I still think he gets it from a game stand point.
He still needs to fix controllers to be fun, , but hey, he can't do it all fast.
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Banging on the same 3 minnions at 50 that gave me a run for my money at 10 is not my idea of a hero.
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An interesting straw man, here. It ISN'T the same three mininons. They're level 50 - not level 10 minions. Different art, different powers.
The "super" in "super hero" comes as one levels - what was once hard (i.e. red) becomes orange, yellow, then white, etc. What was once really hard is now easier.
That's how it is in levels 1 to 22ish. It works there.
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Yes, but you are neglecting to notice that we get perks - the new levels - fairly rapidly in those early levels..
I would say EITHER make the 22+ experince the SAME - ie, fight 3 minion, but get your levels just as fast as you did at 10
OR
If you MUST make it take longer to level, give players the thrill of apprently being able to do more - ie, battling 2-3 times the number they could before.
Keep it the same feeling as the 1-22 experience INCLUDING levelling pace, or why bother keeping the bad part without the good part?
In other words, at higher levels now, we can take out multiple minions. This somewhat ameliorates the fact that our levelling has slowed down a LOT.
Personally, I would rather you upped the levelling speed and reduced our minion ratio. But DONT nerf our later game when FEELING heroic by fighting masses of guys is the small perk we are enjoying in the PLACE of levelling speed.
That's it.
-LM
For Great Justice!
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Careful about the 2 orange bosses wish. There are missions in a clue train that have 2 orange bosses at once in the teens. Many people want to solo those missions. It should be possible to solo two orange bosses, though not easily.
As Statesman said, though, making more than 3 minions = 1 hero makes missions way overpopulated when group size increases. I do wish it was more than 3, just because you often see more in the comics. 3 is probably the best balance between performance and comic simulation.
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Good point about the 2 Bosses. Perhaps that is where inspirations can make the difference. 2 Bosses on 1 hero = losing scenario until the hero is suddenly inspired! Perhaps wishful thinking on my part... As it works right now my 2 main characters both 30+ almost NEVER use inspirations any more... They just aren't necessary unless in an emergency.
As far as too many minions in a mission is concerned. Well wouldn't it make sense to just have code in place to prevent a mission from being flooded with minions? At higher levels have more Lieuts and Bosses. Just have a group of goons barring the entrance "so to speak" and let the big boys handle the superhero (with the help of a minion here or there for balancing). That way you keep the spawn numbers down and still allow a challenge AND the ability for the Hero to feel... well more Heroic! (by smashing a few minions skulls in).
QF
Edit: note to self - proof read before clicking submit x2
A mission slider would cause your missions to con at a level higher than you--if you were post 20, that is. There's no reason to have a gazillion even cons. We don't need that for challenge. But if the missions for level forty, on average, conned at +3 (with a slider to slighly raise or significant lower the difficulty) things would be fine with some moderate increases in mob power. No video card problems. You'd get the same number of mobs--just higher spawns. Maybe more lts and bosses, though.
Now, only a small portion of players post on these boards. But there's gobs of post 25 players out there. Imagine the change for them and how shocking it will be!
You long on Thurdsay, you're fighting 10 +1s with no probom with your level 31 scrapper. The changes go live the next day. On friday, you fight five even con minions--and die almost instantly because that's two too many MOBs for you, buddy!
I can't believe the uproar wouldn't be deafening. There's a compromise here and Statesman and the Devs had better find it. You can't just take away such a sense of power from players and expect them to be happy about it.
It's way too radical a change. I know the hgih level of power is not what they had in mind--but that's not a justification for any action they choose to take. This isn't the game I had in mind, either. We all have to make compromises, dang it.
Besides, the power actually works FOR the game. It DOES give us a sense of being a superhero. It was an accident, sure, but it's a happy accident.