[ QUOTE ]
it's not a nerf, you are getting the same xp.
maybe you don't like it, fine. but nothings getting nerfed.
to the 20 or 30 people out of thousands upon thousands that are going to quit because they have this ingrained feeling that if something is white they should be able to kill 100 of them - i don't think the developers really care, because i don't think the intent was to play the game that way.
if the rush comes from killing 20+ mobs go kill blues - scaled xp means its the same damn thing.
but for a lot of support AT's, non-min/max builds and people that (eek) like to group, to me, i don't see the problem.
i don't see ANYWHERE where the color coding scheme is supposed to only be relevant for the first 25 levels.
if, at level 39, you think taking on a group of 15 blue level 38 minions is unsuperhero-like, i guess i don't see it your way.
to me, what statesman is talking about (and yes, changes will be made to certain powers to offset the negatives of this i am sure) is going to extend the life of this game.
maybe not for a very small percentage of the trolls here, but no great loss.
i was disappointed the other night to do a TF with (i think) 6 blasters and a scrapper and found it was easier than any i've ever done. being able to run up to a group and with buildup, fireball and firebreath drop every white minion i didn't miss is not a game that will last. some changes NEED to be made, and the developers are not only showing they want to make the game better, they're actually explaining their thought process ahead of time. This is unheard of, and you people still cry and troll.
/boggle
[/ QUOTE ]
guess they need harder taskforces... that can be done without the wimp bat. And since when is someone trying to protect their investment in gameplay=troll.... you insulting the legitimate concerns of dedicated players... that's trolling.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, lowering the mob size hurts AE focused powersets like Fire blaster and Spines. Their powers are not all that well designed to only fight 3 guys. This shows that you didn't plan to have 3-to-1 from the beginning, or these sets would not exist.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find that aoe attacks will work better in group situations than while solo in the future. The developers don't want soloing characters to be able to take on large groups with alpha strikes, and that is the only way a blaster can survive those kinds of fights in a post smoke grenade game.
They have to either lower aoe damage or raise all the bad guys hps to compensate for the alpha strike. I know they plan to raise minion hps past 30, but I think that is the wrong way to go. Why punish the single target attackers just to tone down the aoe attackers?
With my 28 ar/dev blaster I can kill a single target with my aoe flamethrower and the weak aoe M30 grenade. If I use my single target slug and burst on the same oponent he will still have a chunck of health left that takes a third shot to finish off. I can take on an entire group with two shots and I don't even have full auto yet. So if they make it so I can only take on three minions they have to up the hps, or tone down my aoe attack, or the size of the group won't mater.
If the only fix for stopping solo aoe hunters is to raise the minion hps, I hope they raise single target attacks as well.
I think people need to relax a little about this. Its just a basic concept from the Statesman, not a cast-in-stone decree.
I do agree that Minions should require numbers when it comes to challenging high-level heroes, it just makes sense. But I do NOT beleive that it should require entire armies of peons to challenge heroes and make them feel 'super'. I'm sure waxing loads of Minions all at once makes one feel powerful, but to enforce that as a rule of thumb hurts those who have to chew through that same gang of Minions one by one.
For those with good AoEs or PBAoEs, large groups of blue or green Minions aren't an insurmounatable challenge, and mowing down such large groups can probably be done without much fuss. Similarly, some Tanker builds will leap into such throngs without the slightest concern for their own safety. For these examples, hordes of Minions work well. But for other ATs, attempting this can be disastrous. For these ATs even taking on small numbers of Minions can still make them feel super. Its all a matter of perspective.
Also bear in mind that balancing out mob composition and numbers in SJ is a LOT harder than balancing out Missions. In SJ you have take into account that there's going to be dozens of heroes running around at a vareity of levels in all directions at any one time. In Missions, you only have to worry about a maximum of 8 heroes at once, in a limited area, in a limited level spread. There are a lot fewer variables in Missions than in SJ, but this still doesn't make balancing out challenges easy.
For Missions, the idea of the orange to red Boss ordering his gang of green and blue minions into battle, lead by the white to yellow Leiutenants is appealing in a comic book sense. But this gets tricky to set up when dealing with groups. If everyone isn't the same level, those green and blue minions can either become complete niusances (where one probably feels very super), or deadly threats (where one might feel less super).
Its a difficult thing for the Devs to balance issues like this, because we players are contantly throwing in variable after variable after variable (largely just by being involved in the game).
Again, its a little early to start panicing about this. Give the Devs a chance to work on it first.
**GUARDIAN**
Assault Ohm - Elec/Sonic Corruptor
Deadly Ohm - Elec/Will Brute
Invisible Ohm - Elec/Eng Stalker
Master Ohm - Elec/Elc Dominator
[ QUOTE ]
I think people need to relax a little about this. Its just a basic concept from the Statesman, not a cast-in-stone decree.
I do agree that Minions should require numbers when it comes to challenging high-level heroes, it just makes sense. But I do NOT beleive that it should require entire armies of peons to challenge heroes and make them feel 'super'. I'm sure waxing loads of Minions all at once makes one feel powerful, but to enforce that as a rule of thumb hurts those who have to chew through that same gang of Minions one by one.
For those with good AoEs or PBAoEs, large groups of blue or green Minions aren't an insurmounatable challenge, and mowing down such large groups can probably be done without much fuss. Similarly, some Tanker builds will leap into such throngs without the slightest concern for their own safety. For these examples, hordes of Minions work well. But for other ATs, attempting this can be disastrous. For these ATs even taking on small numbers of Minions can still make them feel super. Its all a matter of perspective.
Also bear in mind that balancing out mob composition and numbers in SJ is a LOT harder than balancing out Missions. In SJ you have take into account that there's going to be dozens of heroes running around at a vareity of levels in all directions at any one time. In Missions, you only have to worry about a maximum of 8 heroes at once, in a limited area, in a limited level spread. There are a lot fewer variables in Missions than in SJ, but this still doesn't make balancing out challenges easy.
For Missions, the idea of the orange to red Boss ordering his gang of green and blue minions into battle, lead by the white to yellow Leiutenants is appealing in a comic book sense. But this gets tricky to set up when dealing with groups. If everyone isn't the same level, those green and blue minions can either become complete niusances (where one probably feels very super), or deadly threats (where one might feel less super).
Its a difficult thing for the Devs to balance issues like this, because we players are contantly throwing in variable after variable after variable (largely just by being involved in the game).
Again, its a little early to start panicing about this. Give the Devs a chance to work on it first.
[/ QUOTE ]
That would be the mature, logical course... Just got one problem with it. It takes damn near two million xp for me to level now... Do I keep playing and have the dev's yank the rug from under me?
Maybe the Dev's shouldn't leak upcoming changes like this until they have concrete plans set, explanations for the changes, and mitagating adjustments to AT's and powers planned with an apparatus for implementing and more importantly testing these changes....
Is that too much to ask for?
[ QUOTE ]
That said, I truly did feel much more heroic being able to handle larger groups of even level minions as I leveled up. It's true that I will still have the ability to handle larger groups of lower leveled minions, this doesn't change, but I am not given massive incentive to do so. These minions will give me less and less experience the higher I get relative to them. Eventually, they will give no experience. From a role-play incentive, I'd be fine, but from a game-advancement perspective, this ability (to handle large groups of lower level villians) holds no value.
[/ QUOTE ]
i would imagine that tackling a large group of lower level minions would give roughly similar xp to a smaller group of even level minions, no? maybe a bit less? seems to make sense to me. Personally, i like this proposed change because, unless i'm reading it wrong, now, finally, i can get decent xp without having to engage giant groups. currently, that is really the only way to do it, and as a result, certain builds become far more suitable to do so. i don't want to see ANY class/build nerfed - but i do want to see other non-uber builds be able to contribute more to a group. this doesn't mean forced grouping, forced anything, but rather opening up the mainstream of the game to all builds. but that's just from my perspective - to me, the BEST thing about this game is the variety within AT's. It will, to me, be cool to group with four strangers and not see 3 targeting drones.
and like i said earlier - to me, taking down a huge group of mobs -1 is still pretty heroic - no?
time for a George Carlin quote!
"You hear these people all the time, 'My needs aren't being met' . . . you know what I tell them? 'Drop some of your needs!'"
[ QUOTE ]
time for a George Carlin quote!
"You hear these people all the time, 'My needs are being met' . . . you know what I tell them? 'Drop some of your needs!'"
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're going to quote the great one..... do it right.
I'm very much a fence straddler on this issue. I very much love the increased challenge of issue 2. I've grown somewhat bored with the mission process on the live servers because they are just too easy. However, I don't think that one hero should take on hoards of even leveled opponents either. As it currently stands 1 hero is supposed = 3 even minions = 1 even lt + 2 even minions = 1 even boss. We all know this is not true at higher levels, and to be honest I don't want it to be true. I agree much more with a previous poster who suggested...
lvls 1-11: 1 hero = 3 even minions = 1 even lt & 2 even minions = 1 even boss
lvls 12-21: 1 hero = 5 even minions = 1 even lt & 3 even minions = 1 even boss & 2 even minons
or
lvls 12-21: 1 hero = 3 +1 minions = 1 +1 lt & 1 +1 minion = 1 +1 boss
lvls 22-40: 1 hero = 7 even minions = 2 even lt & 3 even minions = 1 even bosses & 4 even minons
or
lvls 22-40: 1 hero = 5 +1 minions = 1 +1 lt & 3 +1 minion = 1 +1 boss & 2 +1 minions
or
lvls 22-40: 1 hero = 3 +2 minions = 1 +2 lt & 1 +2 minion = 1 +2 boss
lvls 41-50: 1 hero = 9 even minions = 2 even lt & 5 even minions = 2 even bosses & 3 even minons
or
lvls 41-50: 1 hero = 7 +1 minions = 2 +1 lt & 3 +1 minion = 1 +1 boss & 4 +1 minions
or
lvls 41-50: 1 hero = 5 +2 minions = 1 +2 lt & 3 +2 minion = 1 +2 boss & 2 +2 minions
or
lvls 41-50: 1 hero = 3 +3 minions = 1 +3 lt & 1 +3 minion = 1 +3 boss
Now to talk about Statesman's argument that this would create a spawn for 8 lvl 41+people of 72 minions. First off, if if they code to eliminate the 9 minion option and instead use a minimum combination of 2 lt's and 3 minions, you won't have that problem. Second you can create code that only allows a 2 step shift on the scaling. Thus at level 41-50 you will not see mission spawns less than +1. Mind you this would still creat e the possibility of 56 minions, so maybe the minimum spawn would be 1 lt and 5 minons, to reduce that spawn to 48. This even spawn would also be a pretty rare case with most spawns being at the 3 minion = 1 hero spawn scale or 5 minions = 1 hero spawn. The larger 7 = 1 scale should only be used to create the epic Heroes versus an army feel. It is my opinion, that this situation would make missions remain solable, but also scale them up to create hazard zone conditions when you bring in a full group.
[ QUOTE ]
guess they need harder taskforces... that can be done without the wimp bat. And since when is someone trying to protect their investment in gameplay=troll.... you insulting the legitimate concerns of dedicated players... that's trolling.
[/ QUOTE ]
it's just that i'm not sure where the wimp bat is coming from. If xp is scaled - no one's losing anything - except the ability to take down large groups of white minions. it looks to me like the same amount of effort/teamwork/time etc. will now be spent taking on 3, vs. 15 - and for the same xp.
heph - i'm not calling you a troll, that was more because i read the entire thread before i posted + i think there's quite a bit of it in here. I do disagree with your take on this being a nerf - to me it's more of an "either you like it or you don't" and your post was both recent + relevant. to me, it seems like it's making a change so that there's now other powers besides damage that are relevant to gaining xp. I play a couple different builds, some min/max and some more obscure. I look at what this proposed change does - and to me it makes some of my more obscure builds actually beneficial to a team. is it a perfect solution - probably not. but - it DOES allow for mass herding/huge group killing - but a level or two down with scaled xp. no huge loss. your concern that these mobs are no longer white doesn't seem that big a price to pay for the upside. it would be cool to have some of the powers that actually require a successful hit to work actually matter. to have holds that only work on minions able to be used because the minions arent already dead. stuff like that.
i dunno, seems like the biggest fear here is that suddenly people can't kill 30 white minions in one shot is a bad thing - to me that's kind of been the problem. is 3 the best number at 40+? probably not. and i'm sure that's just an average. I doubt my emp defender will be able to handle the same three minions that most blaster/scrapper builds would be challenged by. odds are there will still be uber AT's and non uber. as long as ALL have a role, and aren't forced to group, i think it's a win. if some builds have to underhunt for the same gameplay they once had, and aren't being penalized from an xp perspective, i don't see why this would be a bad thing.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That said, I truly did feel much more heroic being able to handle larger groups of even level minions as I leveled up. It's true that I will still have the ability to handle larger groups of lower leveled minions, this doesn't change, but I am not given massive incentive to do so. These minions will give me less and less experience the higher I get relative to them. Eventually, they will give no experience. From a role-play incentive, I'd be fine, but from a game-advancement perspective, this ability (to handle large groups of lower level villians) holds no value.
[/ QUOTE ]
i would imagine that tackling a large group of lower level minions would give roughly similar xp to a smaller group of even level minions, no? maybe a bit less? seems to make sense to me. Personally, i like this proposed change because, unless i'm reading it wrong, now, finally, i can get decent xp without having to engage giant groups. currently, that is really the only way to do it, and as a result, certain builds become far more suitable to do so. i don't want to see ANY class/build nerfed - but i do want to see other non-uber builds be able to contribute more to a group. this doesn't mean forced grouping, forced anything, but rather opening up the mainstream of the game to all builds. but that's just from my perspective - to me, the BEST thing about this game is the variety within AT's. It will, to me, be cool to group with four strangers and not see 3 targeting drones.
and like i said earlier - to me, taking down a huge group of mobs -1 is still pretty heroic - no?
[/ QUOTE ]
opening up the game for all builds..... okayyyyyy. Tell that to a contoller or defender who already catch hell soloing. Now that minion is going to be all the harder to drop. Controller PA/Fire Imps just got borked.... So solo for them just hit the garbage can. Unless they do it against blues... or greens....
And now that I think about it how does this "fix" anything. What's to stop me from abandoning PI for now.... going back to bricks and beating down blues and greens enmasse?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
guess they need harder taskforces... that can be done without the wimp bat. And since when is someone trying to protect their investment in gameplay=troll.... you insulting the legitimate concerns of dedicated players... that's trolling.
[/ QUOTE ]
it's just that i'm not sure where the wimp bat is coming from. If xp is scaled - no one's losing anything - except the ability to take down large groups of white minions. it looks to me like the same amount of effort/teamwork/time etc. will now be spent taking on 3, vs. 15 - and for the same xp.
heph - i'm not calling you a troll, that was more because i read the entire thread before i posted + i think there's quite a bit of it in here. I do disagree with your take on this being a nerf - to me it's more of an "either you like it or you don't" and your post was both recent + relevant. to me, it seems like it's making a change so that there's now other powers besides damage that are relevant to gaining xp. I play a couple different builds, some min/max and some more obscure. I look at what this proposed change does - and to me it makes some of my more obscure builds actually beneficial to a team. is it a perfect solution - probably not. but - it DOES allow for mass herding/huge group killing - but a level or two down with scaled xp. no huge loss. your concern that these mobs are no longer white doesn't seem that big a price to pay for the upside. it would be cool to have some of the powers that actually require a successful hit to work actually matter. to have holds that only work on minions able to be used because the minions arent already dead. stuff like that.
i dunno, seems like the biggest fear here is that suddenly people can't kill 30 white minions in one shot is a bad thing - to me that's kind of been the problem. is 3 the best number at 40+? probably not. and i'm sure that's just an average. I doubt my emp defender will be able to handle the same three minions that most blaster/scrapper builds would be challenged by. odds are there will still be uber AT's and non uber. as long as ALL have a role, and aren't forced to group, i think it's a win. if some builds have to underhunt for the same gameplay they once had, and aren't being penalized from an xp perspective, i don't see why this would be a bad thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already said a dozen times I don't care if they scale up minion xp and difficulty.... I don't feel the need to take out 20/30 even con minions with one attack. I don't like the suggested scale, of 3 minions = 1 hero. that's my problem.
[ QUOTE ]
opening up the game for all builds..... okayyyyyy. Tell that to a contoller or defender who already catch hell soloing. Now that minion is going to be all the harder to drop. Controller PA/Fire Imps just got borked.... So solo for them just hit the garbage can. Unless they do it against blues... or greens....
[/ QUOTE ]
i dont understand. yes, they can do exactly what they do now. if they want to solo blues and greens, they can. they should get similar xp to what they get now hunting whites.
plus the added benefit of they actually will have some ability to contribute in a fight against white minions while teamed, where, currently, they are situationaly useful at best.
not sure i understand the issue/problem.
[ QUOTE ]
And now that I think about it how does this "fix" anything. What's to stop me from abandoning PI for now.... going back to bricks and beating down blues and greens enmasse?
[/ QUOTE ]
who would want to stop you from doing that?
the point is that it would create options for doing other things if you wanted to. you could team with others and actually contribute. if you want to. you can solo if you want to. the only thing that would be changing is the color of the mob, and... how does that hurt? i see it only helping.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
opening up the game for all builds..... okayyyyyy. Tell that to a contoller or defender who already catch hell soloing. Now that minion is going to be all the harder to drop. Controller PA/Fire Imps just got borked.... So solo for them just hit the garbage can. Unless they do it against blues... or greens....
[/ QUOTE ]
i dont understand. yes, they can do exactly what they do now. if they want to solo blues and greens, they can. they should get similar xp to what they get now hunting whites.
plus the added benefit of they actually will have some ability to contribute in a fight against white minions while teamed, where, currently, they are situationaly useful at best.
not sure i understand the issue/problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
that's the thing though. When I team... i do it so I can go after real threats. and then controllers are REALLY needed. am I talking about +4 mobs.... heck no. Purples are off my diet. I'm talking nemesis mobs in PI that have vengence, and fake nems... rikti with holds and stuns up the yay-hoo... arch villans... I already team for survival. The tanker that takes the one shot that would have killed me... love that guy... The controller who locked down that mentalist before he could lock me down.... that's my boy... the force field that lets me tank... love that bubble.... the scrapper getting in an arch villans face so I can snipe...classic.
I never needed to be force teamed. I don't need it now.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
opening up the game for all builds..... okayyyyyy. Tell that to a contoller or defender who already catch hell soloing. Now that minion is going to be all the harder to drop. Controller PA/Fire Imps just got borked.... So solo for them just hit the garbage can. Unless they do it against blues... or greens....
[/ QUOTE ]
i dont understand. yes, they can do exactly what they do now. if they want to solo blues and greens, they can. they should get similar xp to what they get now hunting whites.
plus the added benefit of they actually will have some ability to contribute in a fight against white minions while teamed, where, currently, they are situationaly useful at best.
not sure i understand the issue/problem.
[ QUOTE ]
And now that I think about it how does this "fix" anything. What's to stop me from abandoning PI for now.... going back to bricks and beating down blues and greens enmasse?
[/ QUOTE ]
who would want to stop you from doing that?
the point is that it would create options for doing other things if you wanted to. you could team with others and actually contribute. if you want to. you can solo if you want to. the only thing that would be changing is the color of the mob, and... how does that hurt? i see it only helping.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see it helping. because people will look around and go.... man those blasters STILL out level me.
Nerf them some more. and some more... and some more...
And again, I say, part of this problem is semantics, and part of the problem is WHICH minions are you fighting.
If you're fighting Joker goons, yeah, 3 of them seems a little silly. How would ANY joker goon be level 40?
If you're fighting ParaDemons, though, it makes sense that they COULD be level 40.
A solution to this:
1.) Vary the encounters. Sometimes you run across greens, sometimes whites, sometimes yellows, but balanced out to give you the same XP. 5 greens = 3 whites = 1.5 yellows or whatever. The XP is identical. The only difference is the number of guys you run into.
2.) Vary the high-end content in terms of mobs. You should not be fighting a level 40 Nebel Fist. These guys should have a shelf-life of MAXIMUM 20 levels. Past that, it's time for new enemies that make SENSE as having higher powers. This may also mean that we juggle the mobs around so that there are such things as level 5 Button Men and Crey Medics. It will also require creating new and interesting mobs at the high end who aren't just punching you with the same brawl-style attack or billy club that you saw earlier. Has the billy club changed? Am I fighting a Nebel Fist who spends more time in the gym than his level 10 brethren? What's so bloody special about THESE guys? If the white-con minions you face at level 40 are legitimately powerful, if their attacks and tactics are more than just the usual "Slugger/Bruiser/Fist" or "Buckshot" or whoever, if the enemy minions at lvl 40 really APPEAR worthy of being a challenge, I suspect a lot of the problems here will disappear.
On the other hand, if you're bothered merely by the fact that someone named "minion" is an even challenge for you, we can always change the name to "super minion." Likewise, if you're bothered by the fact that now you can't gain XP as fast as you used to be able to, I'd say, life's tough for everyone. Your XP should reflect the risks you took in your fight. The con system is supposed to let you guage that risk. A white con is supposed to be an even risk to you. You are taking on three even risks, and are being rewarded. Now maybe what needs to happen is that the devs need to consider the relative value for those changes and tweak them so that, for example, a white con will give more XP than previously, but less XP than what you'd normally get from fighting six or fifteen or whatever, but these guys are supposed to be even matches for you. If your problem is simply that you won't be able to level as fast, try taking on greater challenges.
That said, the devs SHOULD add newer and DIFFERENT challenges in the late game rather than a Nebel Fist with an up-gunned punch. The challenge should graphically and tacticaclly reflect the level of said challenge, not merely the power of the hits. There's only so far you can take your Bruisers, Fists, and Rockets before you're saying "Ok, why is THIS guy so much more powerful than the same guy I fought at level 3?"
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see it helping. because people will look around and go.... man those blasters STILL out level me.
[/ QUOTE ]
i hear that, i'm sure they will always be king. but i just think this sort of change opens up some options that currently arent there, and creates a way of getting serious xp without requiring a huge amount of mobs or tackling mobs i have trouble using my powers on - without nerfing the way many people play currently.
if this turns out to be forced grouping, yeah it will in the long run be a bad thing. i jut like the fact that it looks like some changes are coming that seem to make non-damage dealing specialist more useful, without really nerfing.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is that you never become porportionately more powerful than your enemies. When this is the case, you lose the sense that you're becoming more powerful as you level up.
That's the complaint. I don't care if I'm taking on Hellion grunts or Rikti grunts.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.
When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, Statesman, what you are proposing is essentially shifting the greatest rewards from fighting 150+ wimpy flunkies to fighting a few tough villains (effectively undoing the purple patch) and increasing the difficulty of missions.
Whether you want to dress those tough villains in white or purple is merely a matter of cosmetics assuming that you are keeping the current risk-to-reward ratio (minus the purple patch cap). Naturally, shifting the greatest reward toward a few tough villains means nerfing the reward for fighting 150+ wimpy flunkies, I think that's what many are complaining about.
I guess the bottom-line question is this: Are we going to gain experience as fast fighting a few tough villains under the new system as we do fighting 150+ wimpy flunkies right now? I mean, you obviously want to shift the greatest reward from fighting huge hordes to fighting a few. The question is, is the "greatest reward" going to be lessened in the process to slow new superheroes down.
I think as far as "forced" grouping goes, it all depends on how one perceives the force involved.
WHY are you forced to group, in other words. If you perceive that you're being "forced" to group in order to maintain the same XP/min ratio, then, yeah, the game will be changed so that you can't accumulate XP as quickly on your own as you can in a group (potentially -- we've yet to see even the test version of this).
If by "forced" to group you mean simply that you cannot tackle ANY mob that grants XP without being in a group, then I disagree. Statesman's comment is that the three cons will give you a challenge, not that they're guaranteed to defeat you.
See here's the thing. People like to make blanket statements. "I can't solo." "I'm being forced to group." What they often fail to include is the unspoken additions to those sentences. "I can't solo as well as I want to or as well as that guy over there." "I'm being forced to group in order to maintain the same XP accumulation rate I had when I could kill seven guys as fast as I now kill three."
If you want to call rebalancing the game so that risks actually equal rewards nerfs, then yeah, I guess you're being nerfed. But again, I define nerfs as being made USELESS and POINTLESS in the game. This just makes the game more difficult. Adding a challenge to the game isn't a nerf necessarily.
And again, I still say this can be solved by making high-end minions really reflect that they're powerful beyond simply "I hit harder than the identical guy at lvl 10 did."
[ QUOTE ]
I think as far as "forced" grouping goes, it all depends on how one perceives the force involved.
WHY are you forced to group, in other words. If you perceive that you're being "forced" to group in order to maintain the same XP/min ratio, then, yeah, the game will be changed so that you can't accumulate XP as quickly on your own as you can in a group (potentially -- we've yet to see even the test version of this).
If by "forced" to group you mean simply that you cannot tackle ANY mob that grants XP without being in a group, then I disagree. Statesman's comment is that the three cons will give you a challenge, not that they're guaranteed to defeat you.
See here's the thing. People like to make blanket statements. "I can't solo." "I'm being forced to group." What they often fail to include is the unspoken additions to those sentences. "I can't solo as well as I want to or as well as that guy over there." "I'm being forced to group in order to maintain the same XP accumulation rate I had when I could kill seven guys as fast as I now kill three."
If you want to call rebalancing the game so that risks actually equal rewards nerfs, then yeah, I guess you're being nerfed. But again, I define nerfs as being made USELESS and POINTLESS in the game. This just makes the game more difficult. Adding a challenge to the game isn't a nerf necessarily.
And again, I still say this can be solved by making high-end minions really reflect that they're powerful beyond simply "I hit harder than the identical guy at lvl 10 did."
[/ QUOTE ]
If I can't solo an even con mission because I am constantly chain stunned, and beat into submission.... then I'm forced to team.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have your much vaunted balance.... but please don't relegate me to getting my *** kicked by 3 minions at level 40.
[/ QUOTE ]
WHERE did he say this was going to happen? WHERE?
NOWHERE!
Geeze!
[/ QUOTE ]
Whether he said this or not, it HAS happened. A good friend, who was an admittedly overpowerd AR/DEV blaster (started before it became the FOTM) has found that he gets killed by 3 white minions--EVERY TIME, before he even gets a chance to fire off his second attack, Full Auto.
Sorry, but this nerf was heavyhanded in a way that reminds me far too much of DAOC. Hopefully, unlike DAOC, they'll realize this and scale the nerfage back.
Q
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have your much vaunted balance.... but please don't relegate me to getting my *** kicked by 3 minions at level 40.
[/ QUOTE ]
WHERE did he say this was going to happen? WHERE?
NOWHERE!
Geeze!
[/ QUOTE ]
Whether he said this or not, it HAS happened. A good friend, who was an admittedly overpowerd AR/DEV blaster (started before it became the FOTM) has found that he gets killed by 3 white minions--EVERY TIME, before he even gets a chance to fire off his second attack, Full Auto.
Sorry, but this nerf was heavyhanded in a way that reminds me far too much of DAOC. Hopefully, unlike DAOC, they'll realize this and scale the nerfage back.
Q
[/ QUOTE ]
and there you have it folks. our hero owned by 3 thugs.
the magic is gone. welcome to the grind.
I'll check in with the AR/DEVs I know and find out if any of them, too, "has found that he gets killed by 3 white minions--EVERY TIME."
If that game is too big for him, personally, I'd suggest smaller packs, lower levels, and/or hitting the forums to see if (gasp) there's something he might be doing wrong where he dies every time under those circumstances. If it's too big for everyone, well then it's a balance issue. As long as the XPs balance, life is (theoretically) good.
Hmm, I wonder how he'd fare with a Scrapper by his side. Or a Tank. Or Defender or Controller.
Never mind, this is heph we're talking about. Just keep the negativity coming and try to make us all feel miserable about a game you hate so much you refuse to stop playing and discussing. Or will you stop it if we take up a donation to PL you to 50, since that seems to be the alpha and omega of your hostility?
[ QUOTE ]
Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.
When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, then it breaks down to you doing the exact same thing for 50 levels just with different graphics...
Not sure how much I enjoy that prospect myself though. Course for myself, it's particularly worse, since as I advance, I become less fit and able to combat equal level minions (silly hit point escalation without damage escalation).
Let's Dance!
[ QUOTE ]
I'll check in with the AR/DEVs I know and find out if any of them, too, "has found that he gets killed by 3 white minions--EVERY TIME."
If that game is too big for him, personally, I'd suggest smaller packs, lower levels, and/or hitting the forums to see if (gasp) there's something he might be doing wrong where he dies every time under those circumstances. If it's too big for everyone, well then it's a balance issue. As long as the XPs balance, life is (theoretically) good.
Hmm, I wonder how he'd fare with a Scrapper by his side. Or a Tank. Or Defender or Controller.
Never mind, this is heph we're talking about. Just keep the negativity coming and try to make us all feel miserable about a game you hate so much you refuse to stop playing and discussing. Or will you stop it if we take up a donation to PL you to 50, since that seems to be the alpha and omega of your hostility?
[/ QUOTE ]
oh [censored] off. I shouldn't have to go find a team mate to take on 3 whites. this game is turning into gimpsville. If states man said that three whites should be a challenge and three whites wipe the floor with a blaster then that's EXACTLY what I'm complaining about.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They really ARE the very same minions. They are just dressed up in different clothing and have a few different powers. You might see them as very very different. But, many of us see them as just the same minion.
[/ QUOTE ]
True - you could put it that way (which of course, pretty much nullifies the diversity in every other MMP, but I digress), but then one could equally say, "they're the same - just more of them!"
Also - think of the technical ramifications. Let's say that 10 minions equal a hero at level 40. That means that we'd need to stock 80 minions in a single room on a mission when there's 8 heroes. 80 minions. Every room. The performance issues boggle the mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
The technical limitations sell me on this point more than anything else right now. I can see where having 80 minions in a room could be very... congesting... to a person's system.
That said, I truly did feel much more heroic being able to handle larger groups of even level minions as I leveled up. It's true that I will still have the ability to handle larger groups of lower leveled minions, this doesn't change, but I am not given massive incentive to do so. These minions will give me less and less experience the higher I get relative to them. Eventually, they will give no experience. From a role-play incentive, I'd be fine, but from a game-advancement perspective, this ability (to handle large groups of lower level villians) holds no value.
I suppose the argument could be that when the Thing jumps 20 of the Mole-Man's minions, he's really tackling lots of grey cons. Ben Grimm must be a role-player, he's got the angst for it down pat.
For me, one of the incentives is that I can handle larger groups of enemies than I can in other games. Evolving to handle more and more minions felt like a natural progression. I'd like to be able to keep that ability at the same time as changes are being made. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution to the issues of what are large groups to do? The only thing I can think of is to possibly create another tier of zone type in which spawn groups are large enough to challenge the eight-person team. This doesn't seem a practical solution for the technical concerns mentioned above as well as the herding concerns I've read about.