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That chafes a bit on the ego.
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Its a video game. If someone has developed an ego based on the performance of a virtual persona, I think it is time to back off a little.
However, I am guessing your statement hits closer to the mark for quite a few people. It is recaling or holding onto memory of what was which affects them.
Some hated the changes and left. Others rolled with them and continue to have fun. Others deal with them and sometimes have fun and other times get fustrated at their perceived "mediocrity" in comparison to the earlier CoH experience. Etc....
The game has changed and as I pointed out earlier, every AT did get "nerfed". I'm not going to get into the subjective argument of AT x was nerfed more than AT y because of z.
But what is and should be of concern now is the comparative performance of powersets within ATs for the functionality of their purpose, and then comparative performance between ATs.
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This is where I am many many others disagree with you....balance between AT's and such should NOT be the concern of the dev team right now. it is that concern over numbers that has put the game in it's current state. I wont repeat myself completly though, go back a page or two and read my first post.
I noticed a few replys say somthing similar, that they would like to see a new type of challenge put in front of them at higher lvls, thats what i meant about implementing things like the mayhem missions and the newspaper contact instead of implementing broad nerfs. personnally I would have loved to see some of those "mass spawns" type missions someoen mentioned.
I am one of those that feels the nerfs etc creeping up to that breaking point. it's why I posted this and brought this thread back to life from 2 years ago. The dev's need to get back to making this game heroic. I know I am not the only one with one eye on the market waiting for that next MMO to catch my interest. But even as i watch, i sincerely hope the devs can rebound from the last year of nerfs and revitilize their player base with some new, classic styled content.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
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Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.
uhm, hence the lack of lvl 50 content for non pvp types?
In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay.
great - they will be removing the debt system............no, hang on. I think I read that incorrectly.
At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35.
Actually, I personnally hate the pre SO lvls and consider them a grind until I get to "hero" stage (lvl 22)
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And more to the point, they are heading their game in the right direction in the broad sense.
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Sorry. I disagree with your view Krunch. I dont think this game is heading in the right direction at all.
Antaean
Proud to fight alongside:
The LEGENDARIES & SAFE HARBOR
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The problem is that this isn't a comic. This is an MMOG based on the comic book genre.
Trivial content (no matter what you title it) is boring in the long term.
And you would enjoy Burning 3 minions (for the poster above) if those 3 minions presented a challenge (tough fight) and reward (XP) equivelant for that challenge.
Or did you just want to spend a year or so annhilating 50 minions at a clip at L50? Because these guys want to keep you in this game for a year or more if possible.
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Well this also may be just me but I personally find the lvl range of 1-20 the most boring and truly enjoy the 20+ a lot better. I play my 50's more often than I play any of my lowbies. and I have to say if I do make a lowbie I never play him at all unless he gets a PL to at least 14 but still dont enjoy him til his 20's. so what if it's the SO's or not. I agree on this one fact taking on 3 white minions IS boring, and I have been w/ this game for a long time, and I have 5 50's now, but if the lvl 50's start having trouble w/ 3 white minions, then thats it for me.
I made a post earlier in the player questions forum about the current wussiness of the respec missions (Faulty builds necessitating an easier mission makes this a poor example, I understand). But in general, screw that! Give us some impossible missions! A room filled with so many baddies you look at it and laugh. "That is absolutley, outrageously ridiculus!", you say. Ideally, based on teamwork and skill, independant of powerbuilds, maybe one team in 50 can beat it. Excellent!!
We are privileged to operate within a system that allows such a mission to exist without any camping or itemization. Pure bragging rights, a feeling of accomplishment, and maybe some righteous xp are the rewards. Bragging rights and feeling of accomplishment?... Yes, I understand this may sound silly and machismo, but hey, we are playing in a world OF silliness and machismo. We should embrace it, perhaps?
How does this relate to the OP's statement? However the challenge is assigned, 3 +0 minion cons, or 3 +3 cons, a hero should be given the opportunity (and encouraged to reach for that opportunity) to rise above the average and blow the status quo out of the water. Average expectations? Maybe it is beneficial to give me limits. I will feel heroic when I breach those limits.
It's 4am, I feel I may be drifting from the point, and worry that I am stating (or overlooking) the obvious... I can only hope this post makes a fraction of the sense it was designed to... That is my caveat.
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Well this also may be just me but I personally find the lvl range of 1-20 the most boring and truly enjoy the 20+ a lot better.
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Same here. I freakin hate missing every other attack and I like having lots of powers to manage.
It's weird because in the early levels I'm like "I'M NOT LEVELING FAST ENOUGH... THOSE LAST 3 GUYS ONLY GAVE ME HALF A BAR... GRRR". Trying to get to like level 8 and all.
Then once I get to around level 22 or so and get SOs I'm like, "Wow, I got 2 bars that mission, freakin awesome!". Or even stop noticing the leveling and just play.
Why? Because the game is a lot more fun when my powers work and especially when I've got my travel power. I could hop around for hours with SJ doing nothing but hopping from building to building. And have. For like an hour anyways.
I'm sure the future will bring some nice high level content because they only thing I'm afraid of is getting my awesome character to level 50, and having nothing to do.
Well we could of course, lower the minion xp and lower the minion attacks at the same time, and raise the minion spawns. At lower levels, the minions would remain the same and you would only be able to fight 2 or three at a time, but with lowering minion xp and attack and defense, you can fight hordes of minions without getting too much xp or too much damage on you. Then you get to the luietenants. I consider these you OddJobs, your hitmen, your ninja extremes. Then you get to the boss, where you have your guys that seem like their running the operations, but their really not. You know, the smart and tough but not really in charge guys. I DONT KNOW HELP ME OUT!
Then the AVs are the masterminds, your jokers, your lex luthers. Then we get to the monsters which are your giant dooms day devices. But minions are just minions. At level 40 you should be able to take on 20 of them easily. Of course, it shouldn't be worth much xp. But thats just me 
Things were different back then... 
so who has the Necromancy Secondary again?
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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Wonderful post Eldagore. Wish I could still give you stars.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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i8 will include content for level 50's that will allow them to get more powerful. i7's delay has been the single most troubling thing, because it's not a problem with vision, but with the actual development of the game. Ideas come in, and are not being processed in a timely fashion. People are likely leaving the game for it, though i7 will offer a ton of stuff for robber side when it comes out. The problem is with the cop side, who will be waiting about a year before new non-PvP content comes out.
The problem comes with 2 year old content being all some people have now. After 35 and Croatoa, what is there for you to do that is 'new'? Sure, you can do PvP zones till 38, but then you stop gaining XP. You can run the missions till later, but what then? The Shard feels old now, and after you get past the 6 or so repeatable contacts, in many cases before 42, all you have left are the extremely long tedious Task Forces there. There are 4 zones, with so much potential, but nothing there. The 40-50 game has some great arcs. However, none of this content is 'new'. Most of it has been out for at least 2 years, some of it slightly less than that.
It's clear to me that the last few updates, and prospective updates, has focused primarily on PvP. Not everyone likes PvP. This isolates some of the player base. I don't look at the nerfs as being a killer of the game. I look more to the fact that doing X 6-12 times gets boring. Give me something varied, something randomized, that I can enjoy.
No Statesman doesn't get it.
This MMO has one thing - Combat.
Only one thing matters to progress in the game - killing things faster. So all the Devs did by Issue 5, 6 and Global Nerf called ED was to increase the time it took you to kill mobs.
This means it increases the time it takes to level - plain and simple. Then they reduce debt in missions forgetting some missions are kill XX bad guys that often causes debt as well.
This game had many promises made - level 50 content in exchange for you Hamidon O. Where is it? Now we see Positron saying - remember those nerfed powers well a level 50 will be able to gain some of them back!
So a nerf that created content? Content becomes getting powers back you lost by nerfing?
I want to know:
1) When are you going to actually add content to all of the deserted areas? Boomtown, Eden, Faultline, Creys, Rikti Crash Site, The Monster Islands (yes, people actually used to kill them).
Adding Contacts, Stores and a Leveling NPC would do it.
2) Where is the level 35-50 content? 2 years in and NOTHING. We heard with Issue 4 - its coming real soon so we made this 25-35 zone just like Striga so that you have tons of content where you don't need it.
3) Where is the store and leveling NPC for Hollows? What a perfect time sink you built in this zone. Multiple deaths running past +7 mobs, 1.3+ mile runs to missions back and forth across the zone. Not having a store and a Level NPC is to extend time and adds nothing "fun" to the game. Do you have any idea how many people quit teams after they have to run back and level?
4) PvP is a waste. No capture the Flag, Rescue, Protect type missions. All of these were promised as "soon" well this game is bleeding to death. It needs a freaking torniquet.
This game has never had the devs and players seeing eye-to-eye. We did not play the game the way the devs thought we would. So what happened? The devs forced us to have "right fun" and not "wrong fun". If you don't think this game is swirling on its way to the flush of death look at how many are playing.
CoH is a ghost town. Even after they lowered the level to give a yellow ball on server load - only 2 servers EVER hit yellow - Virtue and Freedom. CoV does not seem fun to many players, why? Same powers as many heroes but, weaker.
So again Statesman does NOT get it.
The answer to 2 can be found with something that is a problem with 1, the Shadow Shard. It was added less than 2 years ago. They added teleporters so you can travel the zones faster. They added stores so you don't have to leave.
However, outside those 6 repeatable contacts and the 6+hour TF's, there's not a lot to do there. Just a lot of fluffy colors.
The Hollows I can understand not having Stores/Trainers because there isn't one in Perez either. Add it to Perez before you move to the Hollows.
While you're making changes to Perez, allow us to beat down some of the trees. The "maze" idea isn't very fun. It never was. Perez Park, reducing level 50's to level 10 frustration status since 2004.
PvP has elements that people enjoy. Bounty and the Rockets are fun for some people. BB is usually a ghost town though, as most people get furious if you try to fight them while they are trying to refine ore. RV has a lot of "Capture the Flag" for you in the pill boxes. It has "Protect" stuff in holding the pill boxes. Sure, there isn't a capture, but 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
However, PvP does not a game make. There needs to be stuff in this game that appeals to CoH people so that they don't balk off to someplace else soon.
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The Hollows I can understand not having Stores/Trainers because there isn't one in Perez either. Add it to Perez before you move to the Hollows.
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The Hollows and the zones like it should all be redone anyway. They need to lose the everything in one zone crap. Sure, have missions there. Sure, have story arcs related to it. But when dealing with outcasts, let's spend some time in Boomtown and SC. Maybe an outcast recruiting drive amongst the Hellions in King's row, that sort of thing.
The Hollows seems like a good idea, but all it accomplishes is people doing the same missions over and over again, because of convenience. Yup, that certainly does a lot to help with the repetitive nature of CoH people complain about.
So here's to the Trolls setting off an even bigger bomb in the Hollows.
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1) When are you going to actually add content to all of the deserted areas? Boomtown, Eden, Faultline, Creys, Rikti Crash Site, The Monster Islands (yes, people actually used to kill them).
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Killing monsters was great fun and lots of xp and inf. it was worth the possible debt. now... why bother. I get more influence from soloing a boss. the risk is no longer worth it. ever notice the abandoned sewer trial? it used to be crowded in there. I had loads of fun. now it's empty. Thanks Devs 
Monster XP should be back to where it was.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
Infernus_Hades:
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If you don't think this game is swirling on its way to the flush of death look at how many are playing.
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You're playing....
LyteInVirtue:
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The answer to 2 can be found with something that is a problem with 1, the Shadow Shard. It was added less than 2 years ago. They added teleporters so you can travel the zones faster. They added stores so you don't have to leave.
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Still no trainer there, so you DO have to leave. None in Peregrine, either, so you have to go all the way back to Talos to train.
LyteInVirtue:
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The Hollows I can understand not having Stores/Trainers because there isn't one in Perez either. Add it to Perez before you move to the Hollows.
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Mmmm, no, don't see it. Perez and the Hollows don't have analogous roles in the game. Perez is a place you go to deal with missions. The Hollows is a place you "live" for a time, with its own stories, missions, arcs - things missing from Perez. If you level in Perez, you complete the current mission and leave. If you level in the Hollows, you have to leave to level, but chances are you have to come right back.
LyteInVirtue:
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PvP has elements that people enjoy. Bounty and the Rockets are fun for some people. BB is usually a ghost town though, as most people get furious if you try to fight them while they are trying to refine ore. RV has a lot of "Capture the Flag" for you in the pill boxes. It has "Protect" stuff in holding the pill boxes. Sure, there isn't a capture, but 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
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But not everyone enjoys PVP. I think I read somewhere that the majority of the playerbase doesn't engage in PVP regularly. However, on the hero side, the entirety of the development of the game for almost a year now has gone into PVP. There's been some flash and glitz in the form of costume items, but that's about it. Nothing new.
I've seen this pattern emerge in previous MMOs amongst developers. The pattern is, create a non-stereotype MMO, develop wonderful pve content for the first 1/2 or 2/3 of the game, be totally overwhelmed that some people have used broken game mechanics to completely bypass the first 2/3 of the game or more, and are now complaining about the lack of content. Fix broken game mechanics, putting content development on a back burner, put out about a third of your planned content updates, push through development changes that are mandated by the sudden number of high level players, suddenly decide that PVP will save your game, then totally forgo any development for non pvp content except as an after thought, totally ruin what made the game fun so that your pvp system can work, and eventually, after all the " it's fun for now" pvp'ers have left, turn off the servers, as you've already driven off your pve subscribers.
I enjoy pvp from time to time, with friends, and under conditions I have control over. So don't think I'm totally anti-pvp, I'm not. BUT I do think, that in a game such as this one, you can't do pvp correctly without breaking the pve system, as has been demonstrated.
The real problems that drive these poor decisions on the part of developers too, should be placed squarely where they were sourced from , not the developers, but the business folks who are paying the bills, but understand NOTHING about games. Look at every successful MMO over the past few years, you'll see the symptoms.
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Wonderful post Eldagore. Wish I could still give you stars.
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Thanks for the praise ace. I remember stars....that was a while ago too.
the necro post is kinda funny, because I see a lot of replys to the OP, even 2 years later players dont like the 3 minions idea.
I see some debate over perez and the hollows. I do think the hollows needs a trainer. I am not sure about a store... an actual building store would be out of place, and a freedom corps rep would too for the fact that if they have a store rep there, wouldnt they allocate a force for defense of the perimeter or a strike force on the red river to fight off the trolls and their bombs? eh, maybe the devs will integrate some of their freedom corps soldiers like they have fighting arachnos in deifferent areas of the game. I find it funny that the corps as old as coh itself has more of a presence in cov.
As for perez, a full on hollows treatment would make it so young heroes have another option, and take away some of that same missions over and over again feel.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
I really have to disagree, granted, I can't read 27 pages of thread to get caught up on this - so it's possible someone may have already voiced the opinion - but I'll do it anyway
Making the endgame more like the opening game is a horrible idea, because it furthers the erosion of power. If the endgame plays like the early game there's even less motivation to level, and even less sense that by levelling, you can become powerful.
I'm inclined to think the solution is not to force adherence to some sort of odd difficulty curve which he began this game with, and he even admits it was a supposition. The solution is to adjust the curve.
You guys do know when this thread was created? 9/15/04.... Well, yeah... I think that says it all 
Ironically, it's still not a subject they've managed to resolve.
Unfortunately it is true, not something to smile about 
This thread is surreal. Statesman has never "gotten it" from the player's point of view. Adding to the surrealism is that he once actually acknowledged that he probably didn't see the game from a player's point of view, but that insight apparently was never allowed to inform his subsequent approach to the game.
You'd think that with the difficulty slider disputes over the difficulty of the game would be seriously reduced. But, no, even the easy setting has to have frustrating "challenges", making that experience at moments stunningly unbalanced.
The game was wildly fun in it's earlier days. You could work your way up and feel like a superhero. That exuberrant, laugh-out-loud aspect is gone and it's a real loss. Sadly, I don't think the developers understand that at all, not at all. Buried in their numbers and visions and fears of imbalance, it's as if they're worried that their developer buddies won't take them seriously if the game isn't difficult enough and the players aren't being abused enough.
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... Perez Park, reducing level 50's to level 10 frustration status since 2004. ...
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It's even worse at 50: you can't die to get out, which you can do at 10.
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Quote:
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... Perez Park, reducing level 50's to level 10 frustration status since 2004. ...
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It's even worse at 50: you can't die to get out, which you can do at 10.
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This makes me laugh
And cry a bit; a little to close to home I think. 
One other point I left out of my first post here, was the fact that they are going to release an expansion box for retail, which is a first in cox land.
I always found it awsome that this team had decided to release free content expansions. Of course, as they were free, i never expected massive stand alone type expansions, and hindsight has shown that these previous expansions have been so full of nerfs and changes that they would have to be free to get anyone to use them.
I have been thinking about the pro's and cons of that new retail box coming. Pro's, looks to be a bigger content expansion the the free ones, and a retail box will bring some cash flow into the studio. con's, it costs money but seriously, I think the devs have chosen a poor time to charge for more content. maybe they are forced to by simple need, but i think it is going to be just another reason players leave for other MMo's. Why pay more cash to a game for content that used to be freeand got nerfed to all get out, especially when you have been somewhat frustrated at the direction of the game? why not just spend a bit more, and sart anew in a game that looks more promising?
Personally, I will likely try a few others this year, but I wont cancel my account here until i find somthing I like more. Thats another thing I find myself thinking more and more, I used to love this game, now i just like it more then the rest of them out there right now. I dont want it to sound like a dooooom post, but i think there is a good chunk of the player population that is in the same boat. We all still like playing it, but not as much as before. When that title we have been anticipating hits the shelf, we wont be here anymore.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
I just hope that legends system for the level 50's is good... We might get superspeed fly!? Better yet, super speeding combat fly!
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Well, the first thing is to not get caught up in trying to make a comic book directly equal to a video game, especially an MMO. Alot of things do not simply translate well when you take overall balance into consideration.
However your desire to solo an AV is quite possible with the mission difficulty slider. Many build types can now solo an AV downgraded to an EB at the high end game. The few that I am certain that cannot (on the CoH side)are certain Controller builds (which is because of the triangle mez protection).
I would imagine it would be most difficult for Ice melee and War Mace to accomplish this as well (insufficient damage vs EB regen rate). Although, this is more of an AT powerset balance issue and not with the game design as a whole.
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Two points really:
1) It does seem that most arguments (are at least arguers) can be broken into two groups.
To group one, its all about gameplay dynamics.. To them CoX is just another MMORPG with a superhero face slapped on it. Its how you can have fun playing by a certain set of rules that matters. Some sets of rules lead to fun gameplay some do not. These people escape into the
gameplay
To group two, its about the universe that is created. For CoX its about the comic book universe. I was attracted to the game because of this, this is my first MMPORPG, Ive enjoyed it A LOT (besides my family this is my primary outlet for fun) but I seriously doubt Id ever play another MMPORPG (elves and dwarves dont really excite me much). I play to be a superhero. I want it to FEEL like that. Since Ive been around for two years, trust me, to some extent theyve pulled it off, no matter how difficult getting a comic book into a game might be. These people (myself included) escape into the
game.
Almost every change, however, seems to be pulling away from group two and toward group one. As a group two-er this hasnt become annoying enough to make me leave, but it keeps creeping there slowly. So far the only things that have been added which improved the game, are capes, additional costume slots (/icons) and epic powers). As an added problem (to me at least) most people level faster then me. Im a bit of an alt-aholic, but have my favorites. As a slow leveler, my primary is a very different character now at level 47 then when he was level 17. To people who do this in a weekend this much is not so true, so having to play as a changed character isnt such a big deal (I fought Council on Wednesday and Malta on Saturday vs. I fought Council last year and Malta this year).
2) You do a VERY good job pointing out importance of a slider. On a low or moderate setting I should be able to beat an AV or Elite Boss. That is akin to the Flash taking on one of HIS more serious rogues alone. He can do it, but when he knows the threat is really high, he gets friends. I should add the slider to one of the few changes the Devs have made that has, for me, improved the game.
--- Ollie
Professionally certified pessimism expert
Statesman is someone who shouldn't rap ever, even if he's trying to help people out. -IolitePhoenix
Check out my Infinity toons at the Vis Viva family web page.