I've said this before, but it bears repeating:
The best thing about early CoH was the dichotomy between lowbie and level 40 superhero. At level 10 or so you could fight four or five mobs. At 40 you could, depending on your AT:
- Do massive amounts of damage to hundreds of mobs at once.
- Survive indefinitely in conditions that would kill other ATs.
- Control hundreds of enemies at once.
- Debuff everything into complete impotence.
You started small and became massive. Weak and powerful. Light and dark. Nonfat and whole milk. THERE WAS STARK CONTRAST!
I used to look at level 50 heroes and think "wow, they can do incredible things!" Now I look at them and think "they can do the same things I can do, but to +con enemies." Sorry, not impressive.
~Gabriel
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these previous expansions have been so full of nerfs and changes that they would have to be free to get anyone to use them.
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For the nth time, if they'd been released as paid expansions, you'd get nerfed, but have to pay for the content.
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And the hit on the growth of this game would have been tenfold worse. I can not even begin to imagine what the boards would have looked like when players started downloading nerf patched for pvp expansions they dont even want to buy. With the "forced" patch/expansions, that whole argument was avoided. It is most likely the reson why hey havent started the retail expansion trend yet, they werent done nerfing everything yet. Majority of nerfs done, announcment of retail expansion.
But it goes to show like the rest of this old thread, the mistakes of the past, and what the hopes of the future are from the player base. Hopefully, the retail content is large enough to justify charging for it. Past issues have not been. Most retail expansions around here are 29.99 when they release...would you have paid that for I4 arena?
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
That's what happens when you have a group like the Freedom Phalanx to take all the glory, just look at the RV AV's, you know how much they overshadow every single hero? Now if we had issue-3 characters, they wouldn't overshadow us as much, but still a whole lot 
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I just hope that legends system for the level 50's is good... We might get superspeed fly!? Better yet, super speeding combat fly! 
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"Superspeed combat flight has been shown to be overpowered for high level pvp. Certain builds were able to use it in an unforseen way and the risk/reward for Superspeed combat flight is out of balance. therefore we are cutting the speed of superspeed combat fly in half and doubleing the endurance cost, and putting it on a 10 minute recharge timer."
Seriously though, look at the items of power for the base raids etc. i am pretty sceptical of this new system. they werent willing to give the items of power any real significant boost, and I just cant see them allowing 50's to gain any real significant boost from the new system eighther. I see it as being a 4 hour tf where at the end you can gain 1% flight speed or jump hight, or maybe 10 addtional HP or somthing. I wouldnt hold my breath for rewards on acc or dmg or even endo points or costs or recharge speeds. they just spent a year implementing all the nerfs to cut those down and ED to make sure we cant get to high a value in them. So sure, you could run that 4 hour tf a hundred times, and gain some significant values, but thats 400 hours. thats almost enough time to take a whole new toon to 50 depending on how hard you push.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
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I just hope that legends system for the level 50's is good... We might get superspeed fly!? Better yet, super speeding combat fly!
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"Superspeed combat flight has been shown to be overpowered for high level pvp. Certain builds were able to use it in an unforseen way and the risk/reward for Superspeed combat flight is out of balance. therefore we are cutting the speed of superspeed combat fly in half and doubleing the endurance cost, and putting it on a 10 minute recharge timer."
Seriously though, look at the items of power for the base raids etc. i am pretty sceptical of this new system. they werent willing to give the items of power any real significant boost, and I just cant see them allowing 50's to gain any real significant boost from the new system eighther. I see it as being a 4 hour tf where at the end you can gain 1% flight speed or jump hight, or maybe 10 addtional HP or somthing. I wouldnt hold my breath for rewards on acc or dmg or even endo points or costs or recharge speeds. they just spent a year implementing all the nerfs to cut those down and ED to make sure we cant get to high a value in them. So sure, you could run that 4 hour tf a hundred times, and gain some significant values, but thats 400 hours. thats almost enough time to take a whole new toon to 50 depending on how hard you push.
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If I remember correctly Positron said something about it being like going to level 60 but only better and it would take a bit more. To be honest, I don't expect nothing big but time sinks, I mean look at RV's 1 contaminated for the isolator badge... But I am sure I am not the only one who thinks about what if...
* You could wield objects like lightpoles as weapons
* Throw objects like cars
* This game had better physics with foes and enemies
* Collateral damage
* The ability to grab and toss foes
* The ability to grapple foes and punch or do moves like a slam
* Epic air battles
* Superspeed Flying (Think superman)
* Superspeed without that annoying effects (ok ok I just had to say it :P )
* Combos (Incarnates are supposively going to be able to do combos... I don't buy it though)
a. Combination of attacks that lead to a finisher (like a super buffed KO blow finisher)
b. Continous punches that overpowers a foe making you walk forward while laying the smackdown while he kepts getting punched and walking slowly backwards
* Useful knockback (I.E. Knockbacking a foe into a building and causing wall damage and spinal cord disfunction on the foe)
* Real time fighting (Would get rid of the annoying jousting...) and do much more
* Counter attacking (I.E. In a game like fight night where'd you'd parry a punch and counter or elude a punch and counter, or a time pressed of a button which initiates a counter which can also be countered etc)
* Combination of powers (Super speed + fly + KO blow = super punch Superman did to DarkSied that sent him flying through tons of building and finishing it off with an air superiority attack)
a. Superspeed making all your powers faster (speeding up animations and recharge times, but lowering some of the damage, think Flash)
The list goes on and on, but things that will most likely never ever happen. I went to far with my crazy ideas didn't I...
Yeah, that stuff would be mindbogglingly awesome.
Unfortunately thanks to PvP 'balancing,' none of it will ever happen.
Yep, about the only way you would get me to play my bubble defender is to have missions where I defend citizens and property in a way no else could.
As far as my tank, I could love to pick up a foe and body slam them or go 'ramming-speed' to knock over a small building or truck onto my foe for damage.
I agree. With PvP, there a lot of things that won't happen.
You have it exactly.
This was an MMO "Light".
Instead of the devs rejoicing they had found an ALTERNATIVE to the usual MMO grind, they copied it.
They are clueless.
I used to love taking my Inv/SS tank into the air and battling Sky Raiders back when you could 4 slot hover and actually move at a decent pace. I am still ticked that my hover is so slow I can't use it for a good fight in the air anymore. There was a time my tank's feet never touched the ground for whole levels, but not anymore.
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I could love to pick up a foe and body slam them or go 'ramming-speed' to knock over a small building or truck onto my foe for damage.
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It's not PvP that hinders this.
It's the fact that the entire city would be a smoldering heap of rubble after one day.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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I could love to pick up a foe and body slam them or go 'ramming-speed' to knock over a small building or truck onto my foe for damage.
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It's not PvP that hinders this.
It's the fact that the entire city would be a smoldering heap of rubble after one day.
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And you have a problem with this? 
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
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It's not PvP that hinders this.
It's the fact that the entire city would be a smoldering heap of rubble after one day.
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And you have a problem with this?
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Geez, Plucky, with a comment like that, one wonders why you don't enjoy playing villains more.
My concerns are that we need specifics. The 40+ game is mostly AV's or Elite Bosses if you turn your slider down. There are conflicting messaes being sent.
3 Even cons are supposed to be a challenge, so that is at Heroic I take it? What about the Elite Boss at the end of the mission? If I slide it down to heroic I should have a reasonable chance of defeating the Elite. Will I need teams to do most of my 40+ missions? You just adjusted the slider so we can dial it down and do those missions solo. I don't mind grouping, but sometimes it can be hard to find one. Not all the time, but sometimes.
Then you are saying that 3 even cons means that my shiny SO's were nerfed even more. Will I need SO's by lvl 30 to beat 3 even cons? I found that lvling my first char in Villians was more difficult because of the rate at which you gain Infamy. Yes it was more challenging and I had to dial back to Villianous. Once you max your character you transfer funds. If you really want to nerf something, no SO's till 30. the SO's at 25 enable people to lvl quicker and dial up the difficulty for more XP. In the end, if you increase the XP received for beating 3 cons, isn't it all a wash? I feel more heroic taking on 5 or so at a time, I like melee. If you dial it down and get the same XP what is the difference, except for the epic feel of the later game? That would actually weaken the bosses because we should be able to reasonably beat the bosses and Lt's solo right?
The Dev's have the data. You can datamine, what exactly should be the correct spawn for a 8 man team? 3 even cons per team member? Throw a LT in there? Less does not equal more fun. I left WOW because of only being able to fight 1 or 2 minions at a time. To me it was BoOOOOOrrrring. That is just me though, or maybe it's not. I will try it out and if it is not fun, I'm out.
None of the problems that plague this game are so obscure that the devs should require statistics to suss them out.
Also, statistics has two major problems: hidden biases and identifying and confirming correlation. Frankly, I don't trust the devs to manage much of anything with competence any more, least of all something as delicate as making statistical information useful.
Look at their data regarding kills/deaths. So stalkers have the highest kill/death ratio. No kidding? Did you not realize, back when you were giving them complete invisibility and massively frontloaded damage and a defensive secondary, that this might be a problem? Do you really need datamining to make you see this as an issue? Didn't the most basic design elements of the stalker AT ring little warning bells in your collective heads?
Color me cynical, I suppose.
~Gabriel
Ya this is a problem I'm seeing with all MMO's that get "older".
The design teams always loose sight of the fun of the gameplay and focus only on the data. They don't see any obvious problems with a design until they get the results of datamining.
The game then swings drastically from nerf to nerf until the game is just so unrecognizable to the original concept that the veteran playerbase is alienated and just gives up.
Then the game dumbs itself down even further to pander to the masses of spur of the moment gamers, that only tend to stick around for a month or two.
The heart of the game just dies and eventually the game just falls from the spotlight. Only really diehard loyalist players stick with it then and the game takes years to get back to anywhere near as interesting as it used to be.
Another thing, notice how the players are basically just Heroes now? Not SUPER Heroes like they used to be? Ever notice how only the Signature Heroes (and Signature Villains) are truely SUPER now?
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Another thing, notice how the players are basically just Heroes now? Not SUPER Heroes like they used to be? Ever notice how only the Signature Heroes (and Signature Villains) are truely SUPER now?
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Stars to youy Buzzard for pointing this out for me. You hit the nail on the head with this one. 
I want to feel like a superhero again. not just like a hero.
taking on 3 even cons is also by no means "Super".
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
I just had a thought....concerning the lvl 50 and beyond hero improvment content planned. The biggest issue with allowing players to become more powerful, is that it goes against the nerfs and adjustments made to try to balance out the game for pvp. however...
current pvp zones will auto adjust players to the lvl of the zone, like to lvl 25 for bloody bay. what if....
when a lvl 50 hero goes through this new content, and gets the bonus reward or whatever, the plaer gets designated as lvl "50+" now when they enter a pvp zone, like RV where all players are lvl 50, they get auto exemped to lvl 50 in the same way as one would get auto exemped to lvl 25 for BB. the bonus rewards are coded to be like powers in that they are asigned a value and when you enter a pvp zone they are to high a value and get taken off, sorta like unstoppable would get removed when you get exemped to 25.
This way, the rewards could be substantial and truly have no effect on pvp. the other option this opens is the idea that the "x lvl +" can be applierd to every lvl of ther game, and this opend the system to the entire player base with no pvp problems. right now my main is shelfed at lvl 38. i could take him through a tf or somthing, gain a 1%bonus to dmg or somthing, then go to sirens call, be exemped to 30, and lose that 1% and any other bonus attributes with the auto exemp system.
this way, all players can buff themselves, it interferes in no way with pvp balance, and allows hard pve players a chance to build up to old levels if they want to spend the timne to do it.
thoughts?
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
PvP (I hate it for CoX but) needs:
Completely free zone - you come in and take your chances with no restraints.
Capture the flag zone. It cycles like the old Dustbowl in Halflife TFC used to. You get to play defending team - then it cycles to attacking team next. It is timed and the fastest team - changes something on the Main CoH/CoV maps - Like Atlas globe is destroyed if Villains have won or something such as this.
Make it a 12 man per side max to lessen lag.
You could have multiple groups running it at once. This would actually make me want to try PvP. I imagine the old Dustbowl in Halflife and think of doing it with Heroes and grin. Of course TP doesn't work on the flag carrier
PvP.... It needs another leter so I can say it's a four letter word...
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
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PvP.... It needs another leter so I can say it's a four letter word...
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PvsP.
There ya go.
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I could love to pick up a foe and body slam them or go 'ramming-speed' to knock over a small building or truck onto my foe for damage.
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It's not PvP that hinders this.
It's the fact that the entire city would be a smoldering heap of rubble after one day.
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That is a VERY narrow view you have for a suggestion that adds to the game. Did I mention anything about it being in the open zones? Did I mention Steel Canyon, Perez Park, etc? Maybe its in a new zone. Maybe its in missions. Or maybe the buildings are only partway destructible, the area is then cordoned off using the same force field technology they use for the war walls. Maybe there is a HUGE penalty for destroying buildings and other property. Maybe its another part of the game to rebuild the city(non-combat anyone?). Maybe police drones come and take you away before you completely destroy the city.
I just love when people answer "it can't be done". Yeah, maybe just the way you envisioned it. Luckily there are many avenues to approach a problem and arrive at a solution. I asked about destructilble environments two SD comic cons ago and the dev their said the same thing. Well, here we are today with Mayhem missions. Not exactly the same thing that is true but it proves my point just fine since I didn't specify how/where/when.
And yes PvP is definitely a factor as the devs have shown they haven't exactly gotten the two types of gameplay completely separated where one does not affect the other. I can't believe you said that. Any ability you add in the game definitely has to be taken into account in PvP as well for balances sake.
Thank you for your negativity though. It has been noted.
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I saw in an interview with posi he wants to get back into the story aspect of cox. I hope that means more, and more detailed content for pve. I hope it means fleshing out older zones like perez and faultline that are vacant most of the time now. i hope it means a focus more on what got cox where it is today- unique AT's and content in an immersive world.
the 3 white minions and the pvp thing are all well and good, but they arent what made this game a contendor in the market share, and they never will be.
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Nice post.
I have always despaired at Statesman's 3 minions concept. It might be an okay "game" concept but is it a valid "Super Hero" genre concept? I'd be inclinded to say No.
Plus given that this game engine copes with a 100 mobs on the screen it seems silly to limit that number to 24.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I know it's been said before, but I'll just re-iterate.
Three minions vs one hero is just plain wrong for a superhero genre MMO. Minions should be the waves upon waves of disposable pawns that just bogs the hero(es) down in their march towards the true villains. How many times have Wolverine, Spiderman, Captain America et al been surrounded by sheer numbers of essentially cannonfodder? Take X3 (*sighs*) as a recent example. Magneto sends in the clowns first. His minions. The chaffe to his wheat. The numbers which threaten to overwhelm the heroes.
In my - often ill-considered - opinion, the con system should reflect something like:
10 minions should equal 1 Hero.
3 Lts should equal 1 Hero.
1 Boss should equal 1 Hero.
1 Elite Boss should equal 3 Heroes.
1 Archvillain should equal 10 Heroes.
1 Giant Monster should equal 20 Heroes.
In addition, Archvillains should reflect the power and levels of the heroes that go up against them. At Level 50, one should not be facing some alternate-universe copy of an established Signature Hero. The threats should be on a cosmic level. More Hamidon than Praetorian.
A lot of the feeling of "dooom" can be traced back to the concept that no matter how great your character is at Level 50, you'll never match up to a Signature Character. They're the established yardstick. The characters that define how powerful your hero is in the world. So when a L50 Tanker meets - for example - Siege (a signature Tanker)... you're automatically comparing one to the other. And they never stack up side-by-side. They'll always be better. Harder. Stronger. More durable.
And that's a shame... since by Level 50, you should have earned the right to be up there with the big names.
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Three minions vs one hero is just plain wrong for a superhero genre MMO. Minions should be the waves upon waves of disposable pawns that just bogs the hero(es) down in their march towards the true villains.
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Yes, the comics are full of examples (particularly in the Silver Age Marvel Comics) of a single hero wading thru the minions on the way to the Real Fight. I remember old issues of the Fantastic Four where the Thing booted the Mole Man's minions away like grains of sand...
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And that's a shame... since by Level 50, you should have earned the right to be up there with the big names.
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Actually, I slightly disagree here. Yes, by level 50 our heroes should be "cosmic", more interested in thwarting world menaces than street crime, but there has to be a standard of superhero that our characters cannot reach, or the game is over.
I don't want my inv/ss tank to reach Statesman levels. I want to approach that level of power, sure, but the idea of "completing" my character turns me off. I should either be able to build my alts or build my level 50; currently the game only lets us build alts while the level 50s rot on Hive duty.
PvP is not about character development, and while it might be about skill development, mostly it's about nerfing the PvE game.
I scratch my head in puzzlement about the so-called "veterans" or "legends" system(s). How in the world are the devs going to implement these without ratcheting up the nerfcalls on the forums because of perceived PvP imbalance?
If it were up to me, I would have implemented all PvP in this game as a "don't expect to find it balanced" minigame. Cope with PvP as best you can, the PvE game is the primary concern. That would have eliminated nerfs to a host of powers, like Phase Shift, which wrecked for everyone a well-known subset of comic book superhero (e.g., Phantom Girl/Kitty Pryde/Red Ghost/Vision).
There are enough missing superhero types (shape-shifter/size-shifter/elastic/aquatic/animal control/mind-transfer/vehicle-based) that nerfs should not essentially eliminate any of the available concepts just to satisfy PvP.
Now I'm reading nerfcalling threads about granite armor, just as I expected to see. Hopefully the devs can show some restraint on this issue, even if they are following the very flawed "EQ in tights" playbook.
EQ was most emphatically not a great success story. It was just the first of the modern 3-D MMOs to arrive so it had a "captive audience". EQ had plenty of features that players didn't like and those features weren't really addressed in any meaningful way until competition started arriving. I was glad to get out of that game and come to CoH, which has more fun in its little finger than EQ had in its first seven expansions.
CoH should ignore advice from game developers who push the mean old EQ doctrine that an annoyed and frustrated customer is a long-paying customer. That fallacy was only true when there was only one MMO on the block.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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these previous expansions have been so full of nerfs and changes that they would have to be free to get anyone to use them.
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For the nth time, if they'd been released as paid expansions, you'd get nerfed, but have to pay for the content.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.