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And that's a shame... since by Level 50, you should have earned the right to be up there with the big names.
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I don't want my inv/ss tank to reach Statesman levels. I want to approach that level of power, sure, but the idea of "completing" my character turns me off.
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I guess I should have been a bit clearer here. 'The Statesman' is an anomaly in the CoX universe. He's the 'Superman' of Paragon City, as it were. Possessed by the power of a Greek god, it's no small wonder he's the world's foremost hero. And I agree with you; that level should not be achievable any more than a SWG character (god forbid!) could level to a point where they could take out the Vader NPC.
However, his allies and compatriots are not so almighty. Manticore. Miss Liberty. Synapse. Positron. These display powers at a level that should not be out of reach to a L50.
What happens, then, when you reasch this L50? Endgame?
I would hope not. If it were me, I'd make these signature heroes your contacts for further L50 missions (with mobs upwards to L54). Missions that, for some reason or another (reflected, perhaps, in the comics) they can't do themselves, or decree "you're the best man/woman for the job."
If immersion is highly regarded in the development of missions and world environment, imagine the secret swell of pride you'd feel when a hero you see in the comics admits you could do better.
My point is, Level 50 shouldn't be the endgame in terms of where you are. Granted, it's not now to an extent (Hamidon, for example.. 
) , but the difference is: no matter how well slotted your powers are... Mynx will always be better than you. Hell, she's better than at least three heroes combined.
Ultimately nothing you do in-game will mean much in the grand scheme of things. Because, subconciously, you'll always know that you're just doing the minor jobs Freedom Phalanx are too powerful to waste their time on. 
The way I see it, the AVs and Heroes are pre-Crisis Kryptonians. Everybody else is post-Crisis Kryptonian.
They whoop our booties via writer/developer fiat. It's that simple.
~Gabriel
First off, I agree with the OP 100%. Statesman is the best MMO developer I have ever seen. He has a great vision of what this game should be like and I hope he sticks to it, ignoring all the nay-sayers.
Now, onto the
discussion
about how our heroes should compare to the signature heroes and villains (forgive me if this has been gone over already, but Im at work and dont have time for the 30+ pages). Heres how I see it
Statesman is the equivalent of Superman (duh). Except for a weakness (does he have a Kryptonite? [maybe that rifle from the Recluse SF?]), he is the perfect hero; invincible, incredibly strong, and backed with some other awesome powers. We will never be Superman. Thats why hes Superman. Batman would be one depressed little rich boy if he compared himself to the Man of Steel. Instead, Batman focuses on what he can do for society with what he has. He needs no super powers, just the will to fight, and dammit, hes one of the best.
Now, were all a little better off than Batman (well, maybe not the Defenders [j/k]), power-wise. We should be happy with our strength level, not downtrodden that there is someone stronger. There will always be someone stronger. No, we arent the Phalanxs cronies or lackeys; were their allies. So what if we arent as strong as them? What, you wanted to fight your allies?
I know, its irksome to see them running around Recluses Victory one-shotting groups of villains; but would that really be fun (or fair)? If, by the end game, everyone was at Phalanx-level of power, then wed need to commission some tough-[censored] enemies to fight. I mean, imagine teams of 2 Statesman-tanks holding aggro and Footstomping everything; Positron-blastfenders debuffing and ripping mobs to shreds; Sister Psyche-trollers untouched behind their wall of psychic mezzes. After a couple missions of Wow, Im the UBAR! wed get bored and saunter off to another MMO.
We need challenge, we thrive off of it. If we want to feel godly at 50, go to Atlas Park and Nova some Hellions for the newbies to ogle. If you want to feel like a hero, go to the Hive or wherever and fight 51-52s. Those are what you should be fighting. Youve spent months gaining that strength; go focus it properly.
/em rantoff
I hate it when people talk about challenge. This game isn't challenging for me. Any time people bring challenge into the equation I can't do anything but shrug and wonder.
I don't get it. I don't get it at some very basic level, and I suppose it's preventing me from seeing some brilliant overarching game design that is, at the moment, totally opaque to me. Or maybe I'm just not their target demographic? 
~Gabriel
Firstly, I happen to think this game - and the Devs - are the best in the business. I have never thought otherwise. I've not ranted about ED. I've not bemoaned the GDN. I have a high-regard for the work that has gone into the creation of the world we all play in.
This being said, I am not against pointing out certain issues I personally see wrong with the system at hand. Yes, Universe, you are quite right - we are their allies. That was pretty much my point.
However, it seems you are under the erronous impression I am unhappy with the position my own hero is at the moment. And you'd be wrong. I'm not Level 50, and won't be for some time. Curious, then, that I offer these opinions in an effort to add content, flavour, and wider-reaching implications for the players who have indeed reached the Level 50 that is such an accolade and testimony to the player.
My point is that - using your analogy - none of us happen to be even Batman. Batman is the top of his game, allowing interaction and combat that the average vigilante would be unable to handle. But why can't L50s be up there with the signatures? The top rank achievable in game is Level 50. If there were an extra 10 levels, I might understand it. If Statesman was conning above Level 50, I'd understand it; expect it even. But when Ms Liberty et al - the heroes we IC and OOC should aspire to - are outside the reach of even the top ranks, what does that say for the IC gameworld?
Also, I'd want to make something quite clear: I don't PvP. I loathe it. Ergo, my time in RV would be minimal when I do indeed reach the level to enter. Therefore, I don't care about being "UBAR" et al. It's PvE that is the crux of this game. PvP is a tag-on that still needs work.
The fact that you suggest that as Level 50s you should go to Atlas and blast Level 1s to feel superpowered pretty much validates my entire argument. At Level 50, they should be fighting concepts and events that transcends popping to the local street. The Shadow Shard begins to approach this notion, but more needs to be implemented.
But hey. As long you get Nova, you're happy right? Thats cool. However, I personally feel Level 50 should mean something more than just conning white to Level 50 mobs.
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I hate it when people talk about challenge. This game isn't challenging for me. Any time people bring challenge into the equation I can't do anything but shrug and wonder.
I don't get it. I don't get it at some very basic level, and I suppose it's preventing me from seeing some brilliant overarching game design that is, at the moment, totally opaque to me. Or maybe I'm just not their target demographic?
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Is that because the 3M-to-1H formula is still out of whack? I'm genuinely curious. I manage fine on Unyielding level, but even I worry about Invincible (although that's probably because I haven't yet respec'd into a Tough and/or AS build).
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Firstly, I happen to think this game - and the Devs - are the best in the business. I have never thought otherwise. I've not ranted about ED. I've not bemoaned the GDN. I have a high-regard for the work that has gone into the creation of the world we all play in.
This being said, I am not against pointing out certain issues I personally see wrong with the system at hand. Yes, Universe, you are quite right - we are their allies. That was pretty much my point.
However, it seems you are under the erronous impression I am unhappy with the position my own hero is at the moment. And you'd be wrong. I'm not Level 50, and won't be for some time. Curious, then, that I offer these opinions in an effort to add content, flavour, and wider-reaching implications for the players who have indeed reached the Level 50 that is such an accolade and testimony to the player.
My point is that - using your analogy - none of us happen to be even Batman. Batman is the top of his game, allowing interaction and combat that the average vigilante would be unable to handle. But why can't L50s be up there with the signatures? The top rank achievable in game is Level 50. If there were an extra 10 levels, I might understand it. If Statesman was conning above Level 50, I'd understand it; expect it even. But when Ms Liberty et al - the heroes we IC and OOC should aspire to - are outside the reach of even the top ranks, what does that say for the IC gameworld?
Also, I'd want to make something quite clear: I don't PvP. I loathe it. Ergo, my time in RV would be minimal when I do indeed reach the level to enter. Therefore, I don't care about being "UBAR" et al. It's PvE that is the crux of this game. PvP is a tag-on that still needs work.
The fact that you suggest that as Level 50s you should go to Atlas and blast Level 1s to feel superpowered pretty much validates my entire argument. At Level 50, they should be fighting concepts and events that transcends popping to the local street. The Shadow Shard begins to approach this notion, but more needs to be implemented.
But hey. As long you get Nova, you're happy right? Thats cool. However, I personally feel Level 50 should mean something more than just conning white to Level 50 mobs.
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<<Space reserved for rebuttal when I get home from work>>
I dont really want to be grouchy, I do enjoy CoX...
but...
I think as far as extremely successful MMORPGs go it is missing some serious components... and you can tell...
heres a quick contrast and compare.
I know that a lot of people play WoW now adays so ill use that.
OK, first the differences in game play...
CoX==relatively small world.
WoW==like rediculously huge world.
CoX==Team centric (SK and EX)
WoW==the world is REALLY big and there is no sk or ex system, good luck finding a team
CoX==No economic system
WoW==Rediculously expansive economic system with an auction house, crafting, and a bunch of dough changing hands all the time
CoX==no determination of servers based on RP or PvP
WoW==deligated PvP and RP servers so that people have an idea of what the server will be like based on play interest
CoX==same number of servers is launched with
WoW==keep adding servers, dozens at this point
CoX==sometimes ill see 4 servers with medium activity, most of the time its one maybe two
WoW==the new servers fill up almost as they launch
These last two speak volumes for me... CoX is a lot of fun, but the community is not really growing its just maintaining it self.
In my opinion its cause there is no economic system. I feel like this detracts from the sense of community in some way. There isnt a good PvP rewards system (PvP items/xp) ... if you are in there for a while you can get an SO... doesnt really seem like a big deal.
Also CoX has this 3 minions==1 Hero thing... thats cool, very true to the genre, i think that this is good because it emphasizes the only thing that CoX offers that other MMORPGs dont (other than its unique theme)...
Beating up on a metric crap ton of badies at once... and then doing it again and again...
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First off, I agree with the OP 100%. Statesman is the best MMO developer I have ever seen. He has a great vision of what this game should be like and I hope he sticks to it, ignoring all the nay-sayers.
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I think you missed the point of the OP. It wasn't at all that Statesman is a great MMO developer. It was that he'd finally, in Krunch's opinion, gotten something right.
While I'm posting, however: why the frack is this thread still going? Let's get this thing locked up, man.
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In my opinion its cause there is no economic system. I feel like this detracts from the sense of community in some way.
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Does CoX need an economic system, or just more depth of some sort, something extra to do with our characters, both as they develop and especially at 50? Bases are perhaps the beginning of that something extra. I think eventually our characters might be able to create temp powers also, although I'm not sure. Issue 8 may have lots of endgame surprises, who knows.
I am happy that there's very little economy in the game, although I was pretty unhappy to discover that bases were going to be financed by "prestige" instead of all that influence we've been accumulating. That was a nasty devaluation of the influence currency, imho.
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There isnt a good PvP rewards system (PvP items/xp) ... if you are in there for a while you can get an SO... doesnt really seem like a big deal.
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PvP is also an attempt to provide depth, although it's done more harm than good to the feeling of immersion, and caused and may cause a host of nerfs. I don't think PvP will generate more of the right kind of subscriber -- the loyal, long-term kind, that is.
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Also CoX has this 3 minions==1 Hero thing... thats cool, very true to the genre, i think that this is good because it emphasizes the only thing that CoX offers that other MMORPGs dont (other than its unique theme)...
Beating up on a metric crap ton of badies at once... and then doing it again and again...
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The 3 minions = 1 hero idea is not "true to the genre", it's vanilla MMO design, and represents a betrayal of the comic book theme. Comics heroes do indeed plow thru dozens of minions without much trouble.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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The other MMO i played gave me a sense of power once i started leveling. If your still gonna be stuck killing the same 3 white minions at lvl 40 as u did when u started that's not going to be very heroic or feel much different then the beginning of the game where your a wimp.
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Exactamundo.
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double for me, I want to feel like I am a SUPER hero playing this game and everything so it seems has been done exactly the opposite to make me feel weaker, maybe the end game content could make me feel tougher IRL then my toon, yay. The game is a self security helper, thanks.
Reading the first couple pages, I figured most of this thread would turn into a whine and cry fest. Statesman doesn't get it? I'm pretty sure he does, you just don't get it cause you have a different OPINION of the creator. What the hell would be the point of having a Minions class enemy if they don't pose some sort of threat?
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I hate it when people talk about challenge. This game isn't challenging for me. Any time people bring challenge into the equation I can't do anything but shrug and wonder.
I don't get it. I don't get it at some very basic level, and I suppose it's preventing me from seeing some brilliant overarching game design that is, at the moment, totally opaque to me. Or maybe I'm just not their target demographic?
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Is that because the 3M-to-1H formula is still out of whack? I'm genuinely curious. I manage fine on Unyielding level, but even I worry about Invincible (although that's probably because I haven't yet respec'd into a Tough and/or AS build).
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No, it's because I know that it's merely a matter of how long I take to defeat a challenge, not whether I'll defeat it. Barring Archvillains and Giant Monsters, there isn't anything in this game I can't solo with any character. It's not a matter of my being an awesome player, it's a matter of extreme AI stupidity. If I come across a group that's too large for me, I pull. If I come across a single enemy that's too tough for me to defeat in one go, I do as much damage as possible, run away and rest, and come back. The bottom line is that all I'm thinking about when I look at a group of enemies - at any level - is: how long is this going to take?
That's not challenge. Challenge requires some kind of critical thinking. This game doesn't. Although, I do admit that what might have been critical thinking the first time is routine the fiftieth. Maybe that's my problem.
~Gabriel
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Also CoX has this 3 minions==1 Hero thing... thats cool, very true to the genre, i think that this is good because it emphasizes the only thing that CoX offers that other MMORPGs dont (other than its unique theme)...
Beating up on a metric crap ton of badies at once... and then doing it again and again...
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The 3 minions = 1 hero idea is not "true to the genre", it's vanilla MMO design, and represents a betrayal of the comic book theme. Comics heroes do indeed plow thru dozens of minions without much trouble.
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Minions should not be giving your hero a lot of trouble, The LT's and The Bosses should. The artificial Caps they placed on the game are bogus. blasters can only hit 17, Melee only 5. Sad.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
why does it seem like ur contradicting urself Jericho? You talk about how you face certain mobs w/ pulling and kiteing, and yet say it's not a challenge or involve critical thinking o_O Knowing what to pull involves thinking, you just don't go "eeny meeny miny moe" cause you know you can end up pulling that whole mob if you choose wrong. Kiteing is basically hit n' run which involves atleast some thinking.
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why does it seem like ur contradicting urself Jericho? You talk about how you face certain mobs w/ pulling and kiteing, and yet say it's not a challenge or involve critical thinking o_O Knowing what to pull involves thinking, you just don't go "eeny meeny miny moe" cause you know you can end up pulling that whole mob if you choose wrong. Kiteing is basically hit n' run which involves atleast some thinking.
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I don't consider that thinking. As I said, it's too routine to be considered critical thought. I suppose that's just a difference of definition. Good to clarify. 
~Gabriel
well, I guess to some it becomes boring after a while 
that's what you get for having too much EXP
Though am I the only one getting really annoyed by people who keep making references like "well such and such famous superhero wouldn't have any problems w/ 3 minions"? I mean damn, yes the game is designed after comic book stuff, but god dammit ur NOT that Super Hero, I should hit you w/ a brick for keep on bringing up that damn comparison. This is what happens when you spoil children, take it away l8r and they'll bring up "back in the day" or something of the likes -_-
In my opinion, I don't see why should Signature Heroes and Signature Villains surpass us by such a huge margin when we are at level 50. Why don't they go fight Hamidon or why aren't they always out taking the pillboxes, they can sure as hell do it much faster than we can. Seriously, they outshine us too much, hopefully the legends system closes the gap and make us feel super again without having to go to atlas park.... <_<
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well, I guess to some it becomes boring after a while that's what you get for having too much EXP
Though am I the only one getting really annoyed by people who keep making references like "well such and such famous superhero wouldn't have any problems w/ 3 minions"? I mean damn, yes the game is designed after comic book stuff, but god dammit ur NOT that Super Hero, I should hit you w/ a brick for keep on bringing up that damn comparison
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Exactly, that's the problem, we are not SUPER heroes. So what is the point in playing? The only reason many of us are still here because this is a Monopoly on SuperHero MMO's. Once DC comes out with their MMO I am not sure I would be willing to stay here, especially in the crappy direction this game seems to be going. And you seriously can't tell me these retarded AI are a 'challenge.' We are talking about the same AI that can be herded and that herd is only limited by the aggro cap, yes these AI are incredibly stupid and have been since the game first came out.
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Why don't they go fight Hamidon or why aren't they always out taking the pillboxes, they can sure as hell do it much faster than we can.
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then why bother giving us something to do?
letting us getting up to the damage they can output would break the game and make it less fun that some already complain it is now. I don't mind the short bursts of buffing damage like Fulcrum Shift, cause that [censored] is fun as hell, but having it on like 24/7 and ripping through mobs so fast all the time while taking very little dmg, sure it'll be fun at first, then l8r down the road not to shortly after you'll be saying again "where's the challenge?"
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Once DC comes out with their MMO I am not sure I would be willing to stay here, especially in the crappy direction this game seems to be going.
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let me know when they decide the nerf something so I can go read people whine and cry there. The history of ALL MMO's is that something will get nerfed in order to balance.
I just wanted to post this again. I think it was lost within one of the ED threads after a lot of people were rallying against ED and the GDN.
This was originally posted by Luminara and it just really put into words how I want to feel when I become my "Superhero". Honestly, I don't really feel that way on most toons, really only my stone tank. The nerfcalls for Granite have already started so who knows how long that will last. My very first serious toon started 18 months ago a Fire/Fire Tanker still wallows at 45 and will probably remain there, not even really a "hero" anymore...
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A young Dark Miasma/Dark Blast defender was patrolling Paragon City late one night when a call came in from another hero, asking if she would be willing to join a small party on a high security mission. Elated at the opportunity to prove her worth to the hero community, do deeds worthy of note, and experience something truly challenging, she streaked off through the darkness, risking certain death along the way through the perilous Founder's Falls zone, and walked into the building with her head lifted and determination bolstered. The sight that greeted her was something the likes of which she never witnessed again, and it left a mark so profound that she was forever changed.
There, in the midst of a score of steam-driven machines and soldiers in antiquated uniforms, stood a man, unlike any man she'd ever seen before. Bullets shattered on his skin, fire rolled off his muscled frame, and blow after blow rebounded from his body as he stood defiant amidst the enraged villains, his fists cracking jaws and sending his enemies to the floor in boneless heaps, spraying bits of shattered machinery across the room. His friend, a curious man with powers of great control, smirked as he watched the battle rage, occasionally lifting his hand to still an unruly enemy or steal away their strength and will to fight, all the while pointing out weaknesses and giving advice, and cracking wise, to another young woman who stood at his side, eyes so wide that they looked ready to leap from their sockets.
As she stared, dumbfounded, the smiling hero tossed the last of the crowd of now defeated soldiers to the floor, gave her a brilliant smile, and said, "Come on, sidekick, let's go have some fun."
Following along, the young woman slowly began to realize that her presence here wasn't necessary, it was a gift, a hand of kindness extended from a hero she'd never met before. She swallowed the lump in her throat as she realized that what he and his friend had done. She and the other girl were there not to assist, but to learn, to benefit from these great mens' knowledge and experience, and to see what awaited them in the future. Some would later suggest that their presence was simply to put the word out on the streets and force the enemies they were facing to send in additional troops, but had that been the case, there would've been no need for the young heroines to even attend this raid. No, this was something far more noble in intention and design, an opportunity for the girls to experience a taste of their future in Paragon City, and they relished every moment of it.
With the abandon that only the greatest, or most foolish, of heroes know, they four tore through the installation, laying out one group of enemies after another along the way, determination leading them onward. As they stepped into a room, a group of a dozen of these curious robots and soldiers descended upon them, then half again more, and the air grew thick with the sounds of violence. Caught unawares, the small team found themselves nearly overwhelmed, the tall man rapidly losing strength and the other three fiercely defending themselves. Desperate, knowing that the tide could turn at any second, the young defender reached out and made a final grasp at one of the soldiers, reaching not for his weapon, but his soul, and tore away enough of its essence to revive the failing group. The tall man suddenly straightened, his eyes clear and his wounds healed, and cocked her a flashing smile as he turned the tide of the battle, a quiet and simple gesture of appreciation, and acknowledgement of her act of heroism. Startled and still locked in combat with one of the soldiers, she stumbled back, and inadvertantly attracted the attention of another squad in the adjoining room.
Within the space of five heartbeats, the girl hit the floor, feeling the life bleeding out of her, and another score of brutal machines and uniformed thugs swooped down on the tall man. Struggling to keep her eyes open, she locked her gaze on him, and nearly slipped into the blackness when he threw his head back and let out a primal scream, suddenly seeming to grow even taller and more imposing, and stood like a rampart as the waves of villainy crashed over him. Single-handedly, he ripped apart the horde, destroyed every machine and felled every man, and it was at that moment, finally, the girl knew what it meant to be a hero. He had not been beaten, despite overwhelming odds, willing to fight the very darkest and most vile that the universe could throw at him to save his friends.
In the worst moment, the tall man had summoned up all of his strength, stood even taller, and ripped victory from the jaws of defeat, saving them all.
Two weeks later, a hero new to the city, a young girl by the name of Alice, but who called herself The Black Whip, heard a distress call. A team of heroes had gotten in over their heads and were facing certain destruction. Rushing across the Hollows, heedless of the dangers that surrounded her, the Black Whip went to aid these noble heroes. Upon her arrival, she had to stop for a moment to take in the situation. Deep in a cavern, dozens of Superadine-enraged trolls had gathered, guarding a case of the hideous drug and fighting amongst themselves. The troupe of heroes had gone there to confiscate the illicit substance, but soon realized that they were outmatched and outmanned by the horde they faced. But as she cast her gaze across the seething mass of Trolls, the Black Whip knew they were no match for her. She could withstand their assault, she was certain, and give this motley assortment of super-powered people a chance at victory, as a tall man had once done for her friend, a dark defender.
Courageously, the dominatrix leaped into the throng of Trolls, running from end to end in the cavern, until the entire lot of them were gathered around her, wildly swinging fists and shrieking in rage. The Black Whip, elated, encouraged them, hurling insults and epithets as she flung one blow after another... and the heroes stood at the entrance, stunned into silence at her fierce determination and astounding ability to withstand the brutality that engulfed her. One by one, they shook off their shock and joined the battle, until minutes later when they all stood, gathered around the young woman, shaking her hands and praising her for her bravery and remarkable resiliance, all save for the single coward who fled the moment she first dashed in, heedless of the danger.
And that evening, when each of those heroes departed for their secret homes, they carried within them an inspiration, a dream to one day be a great hero, a superhero, like the Black Whip, who had, herself, been inspired by another's greatness.
I relate this story not to bore the readers, or chastise Cryptic, but to remind everyone that there was a time when heroism abounded in Paragon City. There was a time when we could do great and amazing things, when playing this game truly felt like playing real heroes, and when we inspired others to rise to their ultimate heights. But after the changes in the name of "balance", those times have grown fewer and farther between. The tall man in the first part of the story was an invuln tank, one who I never will remember the name of, but who impressed and inspired me so greatly that I felt, for the first time, like I really was playing a game about superheroes, not just an RPG with a different face on it. I created The Black Whip as a tribute to that inspiration and wonderful, exciting chance to be a "real" superhero, and I got the opportunity to pass along that remarkable feeling to others many times afterward.
I implore you, Cryptic, give us back our heroes, our inspirations, our role models. The changes implimented in Issue 5, and the coming "Enhancement Diversification", serve only to turn those memories of profound wonder and awe into faint and fading remnants of something that was once good and pure. Repeal the taxes you've buried our characters under, restore the shining examples of heroism to Paragon City, because THAT is what the city truly needs. Not balance, especially not a broken balance that sacrifices regular gameplay to the god of PvP, but feelings of power and greatness, like we used to have.
The drive for "balance" is ofttimes a decent and noble goal, but heroes need to feel heroic, and "balancing" the game overall in favor of player versus player combat takes the heroism out of it. Player versus player combat is a specialized thing, different from regular gameplay, requiring a different kind of balance. When you weaken one power to "balance" it for PvP, you create a greater imbalance in one or multiple other powers in the regular game, and it only harms us as a whole.
Please, let the balancing act end. Let the heroes of Paragon City stand tall, proud once more, as they fight to preserve life and liberty for its citizens. Allow our tankers to feel like tankers again, our blasters and scrappers to shine gloriously, and our defenders and controllers to do battle with their heads held high again and not merely buffbots and control automatons. Let our heroes be heroes, not shadows of a bygone era.
We, the players, love this game not simply because it has some interesting powers, but because it allowed us to become great heroes, to share in the times of greatness in Paragon City and amongst our teammates, and to inspire others to those staggering heights. We understand your goal of letting each player feel "useful", but it detracts from the true underlying attraction of the game, that of feeling unique, special, and truly noteworthy. We, as players, don't select "weak" characters out of masochism or a desire to be "fixed", but for the opportunities to play as heroes and experience new things, to rise to greatness in different ways and along different paths, and because each of us has a different idea of what it means to be "super", and a hero. Weakening all heroes to create a baseline ultimately detracts from the glory and wonder that being a hero means to all of us.
We beg of you, end the balance, before it ends the game.
--------------------
Pinnacle
Black Whip - 50 Vulnerable/SS tank
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Reading the first couple pages, I figured most of this thread would turn into a whine and cry fest. Statesman doesn't get it? I'm pretty sure he does, you just don't get it cause you have a different OPINION of the creator. What the hell would be the point of having a Minions class enemy if they don't pose some sort of threat?
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Even if heroes were equal to a couple of dozen minions, those minions collectively still represent a threat.
But never mind that. If anything makes a hero feel super in this game, it's trouncing large numbers of minions.
Plowing thru the minions establishes the hero's power level, and makes the battle with the elite boss a duel of titans rather than just two Paragon City citizens having a slap fight with carp.
The minions provide the necessary perspective. The more minions you can take on as you work your way to the boss, the bigger the fight feels against the boss.
So making one hero = 3 minions from lvls 1 to 50 is a big devaluation in terms of relative power and how super your character feels.
I would recommend 1 hero = 3 minions until level 12 (DOs), then 1 hero equals 6 minions and 1 lieutenant until level 22 (SOs), and then 1 hero equals 12 minions, 2 lieutenants, and a boss thereafter.
That's why I enjoy missions with a full group the most: there's lots and lots of minions, lots of action, the minions go down easy and the battles against lieutenants and bosses feel riskier and more super by comparison.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
If they nerf Granite...I wouldn't see the point especially since it has built in nerfs -Spd, -Travel except Teleport even though you'll drop straight down immidiately, -Recharge and -Dmg
I think that I read that story once before, it was good to read it again, though if we ever get things back the way they were before I5, it's because there's no longer PvP.
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I would recommend 1 hero = 3 minions until level 12 (DOs), then 1 hero equals 6 minions and 1 lieutenant until level 22 (SOs), and then 1 hero equals 12 minions, 2 lieutenants, and a boss thereafter.
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I would have to agree w/ that assessment as well cause the 1 hero = 3 minions isn't true throughout the game, especially at lv 50.
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But never mind that. If anything makes a hero feel super in this game, it's trouncing large numbers of minions.
Plowing thru the minions establishes the hero's power level, and makes the battle with the elite boss a duel of titans rather than just two Paragon City citizens having a slap fight with carp.
The minions provide the necessary perspective. The more minions you can take on as you work your way to the boss, the bigger the fight feels against the boss.
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I find your ideas interesting and would like to subscribe to your news letter.
The missions should feel like a build up leading to a major showdown.
Protector: Tulare 50 Inv/SS/EM-ph1x3r 47 Bots/Traps
VIP: VIC-29(Traps/AR) - Corinth(Grav/FF) -Wrecka(Claws/SR)
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Three minions vs one hero is just plain wrong for a superhero genre MMO. Minions should be the waves upon waves of disposable pawns that just bogs the hero(es) down in their march towards the true villains.
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Yes, the comics are full of examples (particularly in the Silver Age Marvel Comics) of a single hero wading thru the minions on the way to the Real Fight. I remember old issues of the Fantastic Four where the Thing booted the Mole Man's minions away like grains of sand...
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And that's a shame... since by Level 50, you should have earned the right to be up there with the big names.
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Actually, I slightly disagree here. Yes, by level 50 our heroes should be "cosmic", more interested in thwarting world menaces than street crime, but there has to be a standard of superhero that our characters cannot reach, or the game is over.
I don't want my inv/ss tank to reach Statesman levels. I want to approach that level of power, sure, but the idea of "completing" my character turns me off. I should either be able to build my alts or build my level 50; currently the game only lets us build alts while the level 50s rot on Hive duty.
PvP is not about character development, and while it might be about skill development, mostly it's about nerfing the PvE game.
I scratch my head in puzzlement about the so-called "veterans" or "legends" system(s). How in the world are the devs going to implement these without ratcheting up the nerfcalls on the forums because of perceived PvP imbalance?
If it were up to me, I would have implemented all PvP in this game as a "don't expect to find it balanced" minigame. Cope with PvP as best you can, the PvE game is the primary concern. That would have eliminated nerfs to a host of powers, like Phase Shift, which wrecked for everyone a well-known subset of comic book superhero (e.g., Phantom Girl/Kitty Pryde/Red Ghost/Vision).
There are enough missing superhero types (shape-shifter/size-shifter/elastic/aquatic/animal control/mind-transfer/vehicle-based) that nerfs should not essentially eliminate any of the available concepts just to satisfy PvP.
Now I'm reading nerfcalling threads about granite armor, just as I expected to see. Hopefully the devs can show some restraint on this issue, even if they are following the very flawed "EQ in tights" playbook.
EQ was most emphatically not a great success story. It was just the first of the modern 3-D MMOs to arrive so it had a "captive audience". EQ had plenty of features that players didn't like and those features weren't really addressed in any meaningful way until competition started arriving. I was glad to get out of that game and come to CoH, which has more fun in its little finger than EQ had in its first seven expansions.
CoH should ignore advice from game developers who push the mean old EQ doctrine that an annoyed and frustrated customer is a long-paying customer. That fallacy was only true when there was only one MMO on the block.
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please see my post about 6-7 before yours for an idea on the legends system, i think it will work. Maybe i will post it in the suggestions area too.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time