Great Briton

Welcome back to the airwaves, w00tradio!

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P.S. - I wouldn't be opposed to your original idea here, but it would have to be in the context of a change of vision for both Tankers and Scrappers. My thinking is the opposite of others in that I think Tanker's should have the best single target melee damage and their AOEs should be mitigation based with low or no damage (i.e. Fault, Handclap, etc ...) and Scrappers should have more damaging AOEs and less then Tanker base damage versus single targets with regards to base damage (criticals still apply though) and no AOE mitigation at all.

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That would be my ideal Scrapper/Tanker dynamic, and what I was trying to convey to Statesman in that PM all those years ago.

Being the 'inspiration' for this idea () I just wanted to chime in.

I think Starsman's proposal is a good one. It's useful on Teams, and useful Solo. It makes the Taunt mechanic useful to Tankers while not taking anything away from the Brute/Scrapper variants.

An idea *I* had - which I won't create a new thread for - is somehow having a scale increase depending on the target's rank- the rationale is that the higher the rank, the harder the Tanker hero will hit, because the threat to the team is greater. This should - rightly - consider the NPC's level, too, adjusting the damage downwards where the NPC level is higher compared to the Tanker (or Team Average?).

This mechanic could be intergrated into Starsman's OP: the 'crit' depending on the rank. The balance(?) would be that as a target's rank increases, the greater the bonus, BUT offset by the target's relative level. An even-level, white con, Minion doesn't give the Tanker any bonus at all, while an AV gives the highest possible.

In essence, some kind of formula similar to: TargetRank - TargetCon + TauntFlag = D%

Unfortunately, I'm always full of ideas, but often I don't take into consideration how this would play out if it were Live. LOL

Referring back to the OP however, I would just like to add my /support.

I made my evil Praetorian counterpart the week COV came out. My main COH toon is a hero of the people, for the people; thus 'Great Briton' become comes...

...'Fascist Briton', brutal superhuman enforcer of the Police State of Great Britain.

Nothing like crushing dissent beneath a giant nightstick. LOL

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I'm sorry to see you let them break you.
Perhaps you're not the Tanker you thought you were.

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Honestly, it doesn't matter to me. You're entitled to your opinion - and making more half-arsed comments about my alleged 'lack of Tanker-ingness' as some kind of reverse psychological baiting if it makes you feel better - but at the end of the day, I'm not losing sleep over it.

I'm playing - and enjoying - the world they created. Do I want to have it differently? Of course. But until I make my own, I'll just be grateful they made this game.

But roll on J_B.

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Great_Briton, your analysis is very good, but Statesman had a good point and it's one that Arcanaville keeps trying to push down people's throats because players refuse to understand it:

There are no comic book Tankers.
There are no comic book Scrappers.

These are CoH concepts, constructs made for this game with specific gameplay patterns in mind.

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Again, this was in 2005. I only brought it up now because of the sense of deja vu I was experiencing.

I did think that way. I don't now. I got better.

*sounds of electro-shock therapy*



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The thing is, it is a smart thing. If there was a way to make tankers be at risk but be strong ST I would be tottally behi.l.... hmmm.... i think it CAN be done...

Hmmm...

Let me see....


Give tanker a FoeCount aura that just serves as a count of foes that are surrounding him... this aura "counts" foe rank, so .33 points for a minion, .66 points for a lt, etcetera... make an inner radius/outter radius play so that the very very near by foes count more than the further foes..

Now, give all single target attacks on the tanker extra bonus damage that is multiplied by the number of critters around you, this damage is not enhance-able so damage bonuses do nothing to it... result: you are stronger at single target the more danger you are it but your AoE is never improved!

With proper balance, this can make the tanker better at single target without stepping on scrapper/brute territory, nor would it improve tanker herding capabilities.

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Well, it sounds good to me. But with all ideas here, it's having the majority support that makes-or-breaks.

Personally speaking, I would love to have any concept implemented that improves Tankers to more my view of how they should play. I would. It's only natural. But I'm also happy (resigned?) to playing them as the Devs view them, not just how I want them to be.

But, back to your suggestion above. It's superb. It's the sort of balancing mechanic I could never think of. But the Litmus test is whether it's equally accepted - or just positively contemplated - by the rest.

*waits with bated breath*

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Great_Briton, your analysis is very good, but Statesman had a good point and it's one that Arcanaville keeps trying to push down people's throats because players refuse to understand it:

There are no comic book Tankers.
There are no comic book Scrappers.

These are CoH concepts, constructs made for this game with specific gameplay patterns in mind.

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Again, this was in 2005. I only brought it up now because of the sense of deja vu I was experiencing.

I did think that way. I don't now. I got better.

*sounds of electro-shock therapy*

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Oh, I get all that. That was an idea I had after just 1 year in the game, after all - and I'm not the number-cruncher you lot are. :P

I understood the mechanics a lot less then I do now. I'm of the school of Havok (or was it Kruunch?) who coined the slogan during the KOB campaign "I just want to punch the bejesus out of stuff!".

But, yes, you're right.

As an example of my less-than-concerned interest in combat statistics, I also submitted to Statesman in '05 something called "Comic Book Mode" where you set an option that removes the damage numbers from combat, and replacing them with onomatopoeia ("Boom!" "Freem!" "KPOW!") - others here - to give the game a more immersive 'comic book' feel if you wanted it, and not worry about DPS and other stuff.

I got an "Interesting...".

I bet CO will get it. Heh.

But I digress.

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So that's where they got the idea for their April Fools joke a year or two ago.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day

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Oh, I get all that. That was an idea I had after just 1 year in the game, after all - and I'm not the number-cruncher you lot are. :P

I understood the mechanics a lot less then I do now. I'm of the school of Havok (or was it Kruunch?) who coined the slogan during the KOB campaign "I just want to punch the bejesus out of stuff!".

But, yes, you're right.

As an example of my less-than-concerned interest in combat statistics, I also submitted to Statesman in '05 something called "Comic Book Mode" where you set an option that removes the damage numbers from combat, and replacing them with onomatopoeia ("Boom!" "Freem!" "KPOW!") - others here - to give the game a more immersive 'comic book' feel if you wanted it, and not worry about DPS and other stuff.

I got an "Interesting...".

I bet CO will get it. Heh.

But I digress.

Great Briton - Unleashed by my friend James Bentley;
An incredible artistic talent that should be tapped.

or

Great Briton - Portrait by the one-and-only David Nakayama;
This is hanging up in my flat, pride of place. Such an amazing piece.

or

Great Briton - On Patrol by Douglas Shuler (aka Dark Jedi).
An amazing 3D image that has been my wallpaper many times.

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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?

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In a comic book representation of a CoH fight, my Tank could definitely pick up a Clockwork Boss and tear it in half.

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I know exactly what you mean.....

*looks at Hurl and sighs*

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Here's another question. What is the scrapper supposed to be doing while the tanker is still handling all the aggro management, soaking up the damage AND going after the boss?

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Seriously, he should be clearing the crowds with his faster attacks like a little blender set to 'Mince'. You wanna give someone better AoE? Give it to Scrappers. They're apparently hard up for a team role. Larger crowds are found on teams, which is an area I don't think Tankers have a problem.

Better AoE really wont help Tankers when solo, unless you want to make them better at grinding in hazard zones, which is a goal I don't share.

Wolverine, Daredevil, they fight a bazillion ninjas. Colossus or the Thing take on the giant ninja robot.

EDIT *Ahem*
On who comic Tankers fight:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5...avyhitters.jpg


.

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I generally don't get involved in these sort of threads, because nothing is ever resolved, and it turns into an 'You vs Me' competition. Nevertheless, I'm amused that I'm getting a not-so-weak sense of deja vu.

Back in '05, I PM'd Statesman with this very concept. I can't remember the circumstances, but it was when Tankers were up in arms - reading back through the original PMs, I think it was to do with our slashing of non-S/L Resists. Anyway, I said:

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[...] What seems obvious to me is that the Tankers - if we follow established Comic Book mythos - are designed for heavy damage one-on-one. The "Slug It And See" fighters. They're not particularly well-designed for fighting the masses. The X-Men send in Colossus to take out the single larger foe, for example.



But that's fine, because as mighty as Colossus is, he can't do it all alone. The rest of the team don't sit back and say "Well... who watched 'Lost' last night?"



When it comes to sheer numbers: this is the "Scrappers" domain. Whilst not as physically powerful as the "Tanks", their ferocity and speed in combat more than makes up for it. Captain America tears through waves of villains like tissue paper. Not because he does more damage, but because of the speed he can dish it out.



The general point I am trying to make (and succeeding like a beached whale) is that Scrappers shouldn't have been dubbed "Boss Killers", with high damage caps. Granted, their criticals make sense, but their strength should have laid with their incredible recharge rates of attacks. To have an almost continous chain of damage by even the earliest of levels. A much higher DPS, I think is the correct terminology, but with generally lower actual damage output. Surrounded by foes, their attacks should have had written AoE all over it. The Melee AoE Specialist, if you like. Against Bosses, their talent should have been delivering DPS that would negate - or at least slow - the regeneration of these bigger villains.



Tankers, on the other hand, should have been highly skilled at toe-to-toe combat. Very high damage, but with much slower recharges than Scrappers. One-shotting even cons shouldnt have been something to balk from, since their DPS would be - in comparison - vastly inferior to a Scrapper. On the other hand, their survivability in groups should have been based on taking the hits and keep going..one mob at a time.



As you can see above, both ATs would have had aggro-management abilities, but with very different methods of doing so.

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At the time, I thought this was at least a reasonable suggestion (if not with realistic chance of ever being successful). Of course, today, I realise I was attempting to shoe-horn my own preconceptions of what I see the Tanker should do... despite it, still to this day, being the most logical in my opinion.

However, after receiving the below reply, I knew that changes of this magnitude would be completely dismissed; be it due to the complexity required, or the sheer stubboness of the Lead Dev. Whether the 'new administration' is more open to such debate is, itself, open to debate. But I found the reply below telling...for so many different reasons:

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City of Heroes is its own universe - not based on or related to any trademarked or copyrighted properties. As a result, City of Heroes characters are different from others...

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Anyway, this is old news. But I thought it's interesting that 4 years later, we're talking about the same thing.

EDIT: Just to clarify: I don't want to change how Tankers (or indeed Scrappers!) functions these days. I've accepted that what I want isn't always what others want. Certainly, this whole debate doesn't have the backing that Knockout Blow once did. End of the day, it's an interesting thought experiment but on-the-whole redundant.

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...
Kapitan Kirov


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THIS guy is killer! I love the Screenshot, it looks to me like he's standing in downtown Tokyo, while burning the place down with meteors... way cool!

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Thanks! Praise indeed!

I'm a little disappointed I can't think of how to do similar poses for the others, but they're mostly 'punch things until they fall' and so lack the cool-looking powers... lol

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I would like to make all my tanker powers transparent please.

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Agree. I'd love to get rid of/tint-'out' the Unyielding 'cage' effect at the very least.

What a great idea.

Most of my heroes & villains have a nationalistic/patriotic theme from around the world, but these are the ones I'm (currently... ) most proud of:

Heroes
Great Briton - original costume 1
Great Briton - original costume 2
Great Briton - new costume 1
Great Briton - new costume 2
(He was my very first character back in '04, and the first to L50).

The Tank of England

Villains
Kapitan Kirov
The Dishonoree

And representing all of Earth itself, the Kheldian Peacebringer:
The Plenipotentiary

I hope these pics are ok for your endeavour.

Cheers!

Star Strider Forces Registry

Name: Great Briton
Global Contact: @Great Briton
Level of Classification: 50
Origin: Tech
Super Rank & Super Group: Leader, The Darkguard

Wouldn't mind seeing Great Briton by the one and only COH fave David Nakayama up there, myself.

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Nice artwork, chief!

Looks like we cornered the ol' Brit hero market, eh? LOL

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Yeah, it was nice with this and the others I've had done just fleshing out the details to get it to look right, the helmet in particular. As good as the costume creator is in CoX there's always stuff it can't do, yet.

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eg. Flag cape.

That and having outlining for patterns. That would be nice.

Got a few more in the works myself, so I'll be sure to post 'em here.

Nice artwork, chief!

Looks like we cornered the ol' Brit hero market, eh? LOL

Fantastic stuff!! Obviously I most like the second wallpaper ( ) but I'll be sure to use 'em all at one time or another!

*squeals*

I have nothing more I can add!

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Knowledge is power!

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For real!

("Jack & Heat Vision" rocks.)

Welcome, Ex Libris!

Wow.

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For the record <. .> I want a kitty. That is all.

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For the record, I'd like to have a 'pet' photographer/reporter, following my hero around:


"So tell me, Great Briton, my readers want to know if it hurts when the Rikti slice you like that"

"Will you bugger off! I'm in the middle of something here!"