Official Super Strength Thread

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Let’s say the two of us agree to fund a one-slot snack machine together at our office. I only buy into the idea because you assure me it’ll be filled with cookies. However, being a candy person you really don’t like cookies, but assume that after I’ve invested time and money into the idea you can eventually get things changed so that the machine will be stocked with candy, which I abhor. Now ask me why I’d be annoyed.


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Here is what it looks like from my perspective. After years of wanting a vending machine in our office (mainly because we assumed it would have candy in it, which was a reasonable assumption), someone capable of providing one finally told us we were getting one. We were told for a LONG time that we were going to get candy in it. It got installed, you walked up to it, looked at what it offered and said "Cool! Cookies!", and bought some.

We, feeling ripped off, are trying to at least get cookies with M&Ms in them, so that there is some minor semblance of candy there, since the installer has basically told us that we aren't getting candy, because it would SPONTANEUSLY COMBUST AND LIGHT THE BUILDING ON FIRE ...for some reason. I suspect that it is just that they already gave the candy to someone else, accompanied by many public announcements, and are now making up excuses so they don't have to take it back. (Most of those with the candy now would likely be perfectly happy with cookies, by the way.)

I'm sorry you feel we are stepping on you while doing this, and I understand why you feel that way regarding the knockback changes, and I agree with you on that to some extent. However, I personally feel backed into a corner, as my enjoyment of the knockback doesn't mesh with the enjoyment of my friends, since my "role" is to keep all the thugs in a nice little area where I can make sure they keep beating on me, while Scrappers are going after the biggest guy in the room (what I thought I would be doing). Since Cryptic isn't backing down from the "tankers = crowd control" role, I don't know what else to do. I do at least think they should make Knockback enhancers give a damage bonus equal to damage enhancers, and raise the price to that level as well, so we can be free to choose. The toggle would be great too, but I suspect the enhancement change would be easier.

I came into this game wanting to play someone super strong, and I got a mediocre "hero" whose punches just knock people around more than hurt them. And that is just the beginning of how unhappy I am with what I have to put up with to get a set that looks like and is named Super Strength. This character barely plays like what I would enjoy, and I have no other options, since they won't give Super Strength to Scrappers. I'd love to quit and go somewhere else, but this is the only Superhero game out that lets you make your own hero, and play them as if they were the main character.

I wish they'd just given us real comic tanks out the door, so that you'd have walked up to the vending machine and said "cool! candy!", as it sounds like you would have-- just looking at what is offered and making the best of it. We'd all be a lot happier, except maybe those people that wanted to be immobile meat shields/provoke bots.

Ok, so you think that SS is fine. Alright, you have played a tanker to the endgame.

One question remains though: Have you played other ATs to the endgame? Maybe you have, but then you'd have to wonder why especially the flying Inv/SS tanker build is so [censored] *clunky*?

After my tanker burnout i tried another AT and played him to the same level like my tank (in *3 weeks* mind you, my tanker took about 2 months! But that's a different issue).

A claws/regen scrapper. Both of his powersets just "flow" together. He's pretty much how'd you imagine a Scrapper in comics: Fast, quick moving, little downtime, depends on "undoing" damage rather than resisting it. And with a few defensive picks from the power pool, he becomes a light tank easily, plenty of +def powers and at least one +res power in there - which alleviate some of this "weakness" easily.

He's got mobile status protection (one even *passive*!), high damage cone attacks, 2 (!!) decent ranged attacks (he's really just 5 yards short of a blaster - literally! ), a PBAoE, stamina "built in" and plays just - smooth. I picked flight with him, and I *love* the "dogfights" he can go into against flyers. His ranged attack is quick to execute, does high damage, and knocks down 100% of the time. Runner woes are a non issue for him. And useable from the ait roo!

Then take the classic: The Inv/SS tanker with flight. A concept so widely regarded as "superhero" that even in parodies a typical "Superhero" flies, is super strong and very resilient.

But just the classic is the most clunky build available! Click on flight, and loose access to a whopping 3 powers, becuase they "only work on the ground": Unyielding stance, Hurl, Footstomp. Wee! Dogfights? No chance, many fliers, especially high level ones, have status effects out the wazoo - take it to the air, you're likely the first one to pummel to the ground. No grabbing something, flying up and hurling it, since you need the ground for "ammunition". You stand down there in US and rooted and have the flyer pelt you for eternity with his ranged attacks. No PBAoE in the air, there's nothing there to stomp. My scrapper with spin on the other hand....

Then, Handclap + US and Invincibility: Invinc gets stronger the more mobs you have around yourself. Handclap is a no-damage PBAoE with knockback and a stun. When you use Handclap while USed and Invinced you're off *worse* than before using the power because everything flies in every direction and start to run (while stunned!) into every direction because it's now also outside Invinc's aggro range, and you're rooted and your defense and tohit numbers plummet because all the mobs are out of melee range. Drop US to run after them, their status effects will affect you and you'll likely take lots of damage.

Rooting status protection is a paradox anyway: "Hey villain, to protect me from your root, I'll root myself, hah, and now I laugh at you cause I spoiled your plan! Hahahaaa!"

Reminds me a lot of the guy in Mystery men that could turn invisible only while noone was looking. A self-defeating power. Woot.

Then SS gets a damage buff that has the potential to get yourself killed especially in those cases where you need it. Can be mitigated by US and Unstoppable. And we're either back to the paragraph above or we need to switch to the final power in Invul's set: Unstoppable.

Which almost kills you every 2 minutes and gives you a lot of what you have already plenty of: Resistance, plus a stamina rec boost, and mobile status protection. Most take it to get rid of US's root, but it pales in comparison with other level 32 powers from other powersets. It's really not that great but the best (and only!) alternative to US you have. Another power that, unless heavily slotted to make it permanent, hinders you more than it helps. US does more damage to you by itself than the entire fight would ever do! For a power whose primary purpose it is to mitigate damage it does an awful lot of it!

And Unstoppable alone - unlike nova or the like - does not defeat a single mob. And it's not even really needed against anything even con or con+1.

The entire build manages to completely fall over its own feet, continually. I doubt there's as much self defeating combinations in powersets as there are here. Inv/SS tanks don't fight the environment, they fight their own shortcomings. That's their biggest challenge. The amount of slotting/planning to make this particular build even *work* is mind boggling - and, IMHO, outdoes any (certainly valid) complaints about underpowered powers from other sets (across ATs) in severity.

The Inv/SS tanker is "gimped" by default. And all the suggestions made herein barely touch the surface of what's needed to make the character "play smooth" as Krunch so aptly put it.

Excellent post Silverblade, very well put. In fact if it wasn't for Invuln tripping over its own feet, the Knockback issue would be a moot point for most of us. If we (Invuln and Stone) could actually be mobile during a battle KB would be the most "super" thing about super strength. I am afraid losing KB will just make the set even worse, not better.

When I say worse I don't mean from a min/max point of view or even a game mechanics point of view. Tankers are the only ones that get SS because it "adds flavor to the archetype". Well, SS's flavor just went right out the door. As Krunch has elequently stated it is still underpowered even with the changes on test, and now it doesn't even have the flavoring to hold it over.

The solution presented attacks the problem all wrong. People don't hate KB, people hate being rooted! Having KB only compunds that.

So take KB out of SS, great. We are still rooted! What about those energy blasters, MA scrappers, the pets from illusion controllers, force field defenders, and on and on and on. Did we really gain anything except for a marginal DPS increase when soloing?

States' read this again
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Then take the classic: The Inv/SS tanker with flight. A concept so widely regarded as "superhero" that even in parodies a typical "Superhero" flies, is super strong and very resilient.

But just the classic is the most clunky build available! Click on flight, and loose access to a whopping 3 powers, becuase they "only work on the ground": Unyielding stance, Hurl, Footstomp. Wee! Dogfights? No chance, many fliers, especially high level ones, have status effects out the wazoo - take it to the air, you're likely the first one to pummel to the ground. No grabbing something, flying up and hurling it, since you need the ground for "ammunition". You stand down there in US and rooted and have the flyer pelt you for eternity with his ranged attacks. No PBAoE in the air, there's nothing there to stomp. My scrapper with spin on the other hand....

Then, Handclap + US and Invincibility: Invinc gets stronger the more mobs you have around yourself. Handclap is a no-damage PBAoE with knockback and a stun. When you use Handclap while USed and Invinced you're off *worse* than before using the power because everything flies in every direction and start to run (while stunned!) into every direction because it's now also outside Invinc's aggro range, and you're rooted and your defense and tohit numbers plummet because all the mobs are out of melee range. Drop US to run after them, their status effects will affect you and you'll likely take lots of damage.

Rooting status protection is a paradox anyway: "Hey villain, to protect me from your root, I'll root myself, hah, and now I laugh at you cause I spoiled your plan! Hahahaaa!"

Reminds me a lot of the guy in Mystery men that could turn invisible only while noone was looking. A self-defeating power. Woot.

Then SS gets a damage buff that has the potential to get yourself killed especially in those cases where you need it. Can be mitigated by US and Unstoppable. And we're either back to the paragraph above or we need to switch to the final power in Invul's set: Unstoppable.

Which almost kills you every 2 minutes and gives you a lot of what you have already plenty of: Resistance, plus a stamina rec boost, and mobile status protection. Most take it to get rid of US's root, but it pales in comparison with other level 32 powers from other powersets. It's really not that great but the best (and only!) alternative to US you have. Another power that, unless heavily slotted to make it permanent, hinders you more than it helps. US does more damage to you by itself than the entire fight would ever do! For a power whose primary purpose it is to mitigate damage it does an awful lot of it!

And Unstoppable alone - unlike nova or the like - does not defeat a single mob. And it's not even really needed against anything even con or con+1.

The entire build manages to completely fall over its own feet, continually. I doubt there's as much self defeating combinations in powersets as there are here. Inv/SS tanks don't fight the environment, they fight their own shortcomings. That's their biggest challenge. The amount of slotting/planning to make this particular build even *work* is mind boggling - and, IMHO, outdoes any (certainly valid) complaints about underpowered powers from other sets (across ATs) in severity.

The Inv/SS tanker is "gimped" by default. And all the suggestions made herein barely touch the surface of what's needed to make the character "play smooth" as Krunch so aptly put it.

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The game improved for whom? For you? Because it’s not for me. I don’t consider these improvements.
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And to be frank, you don’t seem to want to play City of Heroes version of a Tanker. You seem more interested in playing an archetype that doesn’t exist that you want to call Tanker. So again, with the archetypes options in mind, why did you choose an existing archetype you didn’t want to play? Because you were hopeful that you could convince the developers to modify it for you?

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I am really sorry you feel this way but there is no point berating Krunch over the issue. He has made an extremely good effort at canvassing everyone's opinions and producing this compromise.

If you don't like it, feel free to post your ideas but don't attack Krunch. He has done a great job at arriving at some form of consensus.

Actually I don't feel Genesis is attacking me. I like his view points on this (I don't nessecarily agree with them but I like them).

What I like that he brings up is the flavor over substance issue, and using the powers as-is to their best effect (too many people don't do that).

However I do want to point out that these are not my suggestions specifically. As a matter of fact, most of them aren't ... they're a general consensus by the majority of SS Tankers on these boards (majority meaning not all, just most). Not only are they a majority, but an overwhelming majority (I based "majority" on a 10:2 ratio btw if you want to know the specifics).

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Let’s say the two of us agree to fund a one-slot snack machine together at our office. I only buy into the idea because you assure me it’ll be filled with cookies. However, being a candy person you really don’t like cookies, but assume that after I’ve invested time and money into the idea you can eventually get things changed so that the machine will be stocked with candy, which I abhor. Now ask me why I’d be annoyed.

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I think everyone who plays an SS Tanker totally relates to this quote of yours (Genesis). The one problem with it (from the perspective you gave) is that most people felt they were promised a more dynamic, less clunky and fulfilling role then the one current given for SS Tankers, both in damage and utility (and need for that matter but that's a whole seperate issue).

Basically that quote is spot on, except Cryptic is the one that promised the cookies and gave us Sour Patch Kid candy instead. My role here is not someone lobbying for changes so I can play something particularly uber (I think I've pointed that out previously). I'm not trying to change the SS line into something I personally want (I think I addressed that as well). I am here as an irate paying customer. A customer who has paid for a certain product and service and hasn't received everything he's paid for (and been misled to boot).

Something you should note: not everyone who plays COH was in beta and got a free sneak peak at what they'd be playing. Like most newly released MMOGs there was no free 14 day trial download. You had to buy the software before you found out that this game didn't offer some of the things it claimed to have. The SS line (among other things) is just one example. Again, don't begrudge me for trying to change it (just like I won't begrudge you for saying you like it "as is"). The alternative would just be cancelling the game and going to another one. Somehow I doubt that that's what Cryptic wants its customers to do.

And just to clarify, I'm L40 currently. Half of these changes wouldn't mean a thing to my character.

I must agree about handlcap NOT being changed. That power is fine in its current concept, what it DO needs ADDED is damage. That will give SS tankers a second AOE attack, giving this power some way to counter the fact that enemies went flying far away and cant be fought in melee range anymore.

A bit about handclap: you dont have to be surrounded to use it, idealy you jump and position so that all enemies are in front of you and even better, with a wall behind t hem (this highly posible i ndoors), then do the clap, enemies will go fly ing in ONE direction and be stuck not so far since they hit the wall. But damage really should be added to it.

Yep, but we *pay* for a PBAoE. The endurance cost is higher because it is a full 360° "attack".

Thus I'd say make it a short range cone with damage and knockback, similar to buckshot, gale or shockwave. Since you create the "blast" in front of your body a cone makes more sense anyway, your own body is in the way behind it. Lower end cost to that of a "true" cone attack.

I have not played much with cone attacks other than fire breath, but i have noticed the cone radius to be rather small. I would not want handclap to have such a small radio, now if you tell me it will have some 160 degrees... that would do for me. Lower endurance cost is trully something needed for the power if recharge was lowered, not much otherwise since you cant use it that much to drain you.

I wont stop placing enfasis on the power needing damage, even if it was medium or low.

OK, I am understanding you better now. I don't like your analogy though, since I never promised anybody anything. Plus I don't like analogies anyway, they are either too vague to be useful or too contrived to be worth explaining.

This is a case of us simply having to disagree. I too bought the game and created a character based on a concept. Only I am far from happy with the result, and I do feel justified in expecting a level playing field, that I shouldn't be penalised for choosing SS, for choosing flight, for choosing to be a tanker at all. I am sorry for the people it may negatively affect but I honestly believe that number is very low, and a tiny fraction of those that are justifiably upset over the internal imbalance of the tanker AT and play with hope for change or have given up completely.

I had an expectation that SS would be equal (not the same, but equal) to the other tanker powersets in overall capability, it isn't even close. I had an expectation that the tanker AT, in any format, would be able to fulfil the descriptions given in the game documentation. For too many combinations, it cannot.

I am not sure of the exact text of the following quote nor who said it, but it goes something like 'A reasonable man changes himself to fit the world, and an unreasonable man tries to change the world to fit him'. I guess I am an unreasonable man, I can live with that.

If its any consolation, I don't think you have much to worry about. I have a very strong feeling we have seen pretty much all we are likely to see by way of changes already.

Hmmmmmmmm,

Let me see if I manage to hit some middle ground here....


Concept wise SS is perfect.

Not being able to hurl while flying is just ok by me. As a fire tanker I cant use burn on the air ether, not all power sets should be 100% compatible, so it would be nice if you analyzed SS as a single entity without considering any other power set you may take along with it.

For example, rage disorient can be taken care off with US or with unstoppable, some other tankers have similar powers that may help, maybe wet ice can help too, but fire armor lacks constant defense against these status and will have no workarounds. (Invulnerability tanker issues are a separate topic)


Ok, going back to my first line (not the hmmm one), concept wise SS is perfect. I love the feeling knock back gives. It takes away DPS? Then I think the solution should not be eliminating the perfect concept element that is knock back, but instead to add damage hit to the knock back. It obviously should be way smaller than the damage taken from fire dot, as he is keeping the enemy close while adding his effect, still getting constant damage.

I think I seen the KB damage idea a few times, and right now it starts to make a lot of sense... it should obviously not be applied to energy blasters, but it should be applied to tankers and scrappers. This damage do should be based on the distance of the knock back, so yes, a KD will do maybe just 0.1 damage (since Geko stated it is impossible for one attack to start in 0 and scale up from there) and add up the farther it goes, never going to insane numbers though. KB should never, in my eyes, do as much damage as a jab does now (regardless changes needed on jab).

Also, of course, there is the issue with agro; this is something that should be worked on the current state of powers, without making them too different.

I mentioned before an idea that is better than AoE, both concept wise and play wise: if you attack a higher than minion ranked enemy he will order all his subordinates to focus on you, at least until he himself looses your attention (he would even throw a line saying "Take this pestering Lungorhtar off me!"). In this I am considering that attacking the ranked enemy obviously generates enough agro to keep him on you. Agro of a hit should last longer than 2 hits, so that if I need to I can juggle 2 ranked at the same time so they call their subordinates to me, or should one hit miss, not loose agro immediately. Minions also should plainly rush to help the lieutenant no matter if he can throw the line or not, I say this because it will be silly for a disoriented boss to throw a "help here guys" line, but the minions still notice and run to aid him.

All higher than minion enemies should be immune to pool provokes or challenge, while only bosses and above should be immune to tanker specific taunt. These guys just have to be dealt with fist in the face.

As for overall damage I agree with all of Krunches points, note that the small damage added by the knock backs should be only to compensate the few seconds you where not able to hit the enemy, so we still need to fix the powers that do not do enough damage.

Following these rules, including the ones I state I agree with from Captain Crunch (sorry was not able to hold that one ), can do both, place the SS tanker where he should be AND keep the current flavor the build has. I still play my Inv SS tanker occasionally, but not that much, I love ALL the feelings from the attacks up to my level, but I don’t like the low damage output or being penalized for knock backs, but I do like them, even if they are of little usefulness. In my eyes, if you drastically change any powers feel you destroy the build for me. Play with taunt effects, damage output, and all that, but do not change the basic feeling of it.

I know many casual players that care little about DPS or boards will really enjoy if suddenly their enemies do not go flying out anymore with almost every haymaker or axe swing.

Gah, great post Silverblade! That statement about super-strength tankers hit the nail right on the head.

Who is the greatest arch-enemy of the super-strength/invulnerability tanker, that mindboggling nemesis who is constantly tripping them up, holding them back, continually pushing them to the brink of failure and providing the biggest roadblocks to filling their perceived role?

Themselves.

With friends like themselves, what Tanker needs any enemies?

Are there any other archtypes whose own power sets work against them in the way that super-strength / invulnerability tankers' do?

Seriously, is there any other Build Up power in the entire game that has a chance of getting the hero killed besides Rage? And that is just one of the many things that are borked with super-strength in this 'their-own-worst-enemy' design.

I love my main character Stateswoman, I love that she's a super-strength / invulnerability tanker because I came here inspired to play a superhero game from years of comic book reading when I was a kid. I continue to have fun with her because I roleplay first and foremost and I'll move on from the game before I change her to any other archtype.

I'm not going to fib that I'm not annoyed as heck that super-strength is the weakest of lines in its archtype, with powers that work against the powers of the invulnerability line, and have major negatives that few other archtypes have.

Blech.

Oh yes, rage, that one surely i agree with, it should be stripped of all negative effects, plainly make it a buildup but with diferent name.

See no reason for it to be the current way, or is rage buff MUCH MUCH higher than that of other tanker's build up?

Even if it was higher i'd rather they just made it the same as the other buildus all toghether except of in name.

Just wanted to add to my comment about coming to play City of Heroes because I once enjoyed comics and the heroes I read about in them inspired me to try this out.

This is my first real MMORPG. I don't care that Everquest created this universal holy game design that the entire industry must diligently follow where something called a Warrior has to fill a meatshield role or the game fails. I never played Everquest, never even considered it. All the horror stories about so many facets of the game just turned me off.

I am definitely one of those customers who came to play here because of the lure of playing a comic-inspired superhero. The description of the Tanker archtype impressed me, and yes, my head did fill with visions of Supergirl.

Ironically, the VILLAIN Tankers in the game are a heck of a lot closer to what I was expecting to play than what the hero tankers have to offer.

I'm not necessarily asking for super-strength tankers to be able to hit for 800 points like a Freakshow Tank Smasher can, but it sure would be nice to have SOME oomph to a couple of our attacks right?

bump

AMEN, Stateswoman!

Altough i did played other MMORPGs i DID was sick of 2 roels:

The meatshield and the healers. Even so if you go to EQ warriors DO have a very very desent damage output.

As far as my comic book goes, this is what i'd expect from ATs

°Tanker - Hits hard but does so slow (slow animation not refresh), hardly gets tired, mitigates damge highly.

°Scrapper - Hits fast, gets tired after a long fight, mainly rellies on evasion, not mitigation.

°Controler & Defender, these are rare in comic books, but always are in groups, they are presented perfectly on the game.

°Blaster - Can throw chains of decent attacks from very far and safe distance. Can also throw masive one damage but takes very long to powerup and usualy leaves them entirely drained (practicaly snipes, but shoud be more flashy and call everyones attention).

So as you can see the diference between the tanker and scrapper are mainly on the way they do damage and handle incoming damage. Also, the scrappers attacks should be more accurate than the tanker slow ones, since slow attack means it is easier to evade them, but if they connect they should be devastating to a single target.

Personal opinion:

I am disappointed in the whole Tanker concept.

I looked foreward to playing a "heavy". A character that can "take it as well as dish it out". Not gonna happen.

I've seen threads saying the Super Strength powerset should be given to Scrappers. I agree. I would immediatily delete ALL of my current tankers and make an SS/INV Scrapper. The Devs know I will do this, and maybe they fear that many, many other Tank players would do something similar. IF this was true it says something about the general acceptance of the "role" of Tanks.

I've been told that a Tank's role is not to do damage, but to take it. Hold aggro for the real damage dealers. Take Provoke and Taunt and do your job. You don't do damage, get used to it.

I refuse.

I will, instead, continue playing my INV/SS character DESPITE the inferior damage. I will not be welcome in groups because I don't have Provoke. I will solo my entire career.

Krunch, I sincerly hope you actually succeed. I hope that someday the Tank role will be revised and changed from being an MMO clone to something we can be proud of.

I don't see it happening, but I hope you succeed. Good luck.

Likewise here- people keep saying I have to be solely aggro-grab and it really, really cheeses me off.

Fortunately, the number of people saying that is fairly low, even if they do say it a lot.

I would like to mention though, that Kruunch said that all tanker secondaries other than SS have two 'superior' damage attacks. I don't think Ice Melee has that. I actually have no complaints about the damage I do, but I don't recall seeing anything above 'Moderate' as a damage label on any of the Ice attacks. Did I miss something, or is that right?

Despite the obvious dislike many of you have for rooting powers, it seems that everyone would rather have powers changed so they mesh better with the rooted concept rather than pushing for a change in powers like Unyielding Stance which cause you to be stuck in one spot in the first place.

I don’t have Unyielding Stance (every time I see a Tanker mention this, it’s followed by fifty-zillion “I don’t know how you possibly survive then” comments, yet somehow we do). What does this mean?

-It means I carry around a few discipline inspirations for emergencies and stock up on them when I’m going on a mission against the Rikti or the Devouring Earth.

-It means I target certain villains first and put them down as quickly as possible, because I know not having Unyielding Stance leaves me vulnerable to certain types of attacks.

-It means I may have to rely on some of the abilities my teammates have to help protect me.

-It means I don’t have to worry about sticking in one spot, and when villains are moving around for one reason or another, I’m right there with them. Thus, I’m not spending time cursing 90% of my powers.

Now, if you go by what the average level 40-50 player says, I’m doomed in that level range because you can’t turn around without running into someone that forces you to use Unyielding Stance to survive. If that’s true, I would call it a design flaw in the game. If the content beyond a certain level requires you to have a certain build to be able to continue playing and advancing, then it’s a flawed design, and that’s what you should be targeting your pleas for change against.

Honestly, I’ll have to see how it goes. Not having Unyielding Stance in the 40-50 game may require me to change my tactics, or rely on the abilities of my group members more. If the only way I can do it is by picking up Unyielding Stance, then this is a broken game in my opinion.

Anyway, when I read a post detailing why the powers in SS/Inv don't mix due to the dilemma of rooting, my answer to that has always been “stop rooting yourself then”. You don’t need Unyielding Stance to win each and every fight. Even if I had the power, I’d only end up relying on it a handful of times each mission, and I know this because I get by without it. Like all powers beyond a certain level, U.S. is meant to be situational, not staple. It blows my mind when a Tanker goes the U.S./Teleport route simply to become the positionable punching bag. Sure, they’re going to be way tougher than I am, but, geeze.. I guarantee you my fights are more entertaining to watch.

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As for making the powers more enjoyable to an even wider population, no, you’re trying to make them into something you’ll enjoy, which may change them in such a way that suddenly many other players are not enjoying them. And while I can understand the desire to look out for your own personal interests, let’s not suggest we’re making things better for tankers everywhere by pushing for these changes.

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Key word here is MAY. While these changes may not be what the majority wants. Of the posters to the forums, the majority of posters do like these changes. If the changes go in and indeed effect many people negatively, they will go to the forums and start discussions for fixing them. As any company service, only those with problems will go out of their way to post how to fix it. If enough people were to express their opinions that these changes are indeed bad. The devs would more then likely listen.

This post was started to pose suggestions on fixing them. Since you don't feel they need fixed, then please don't post. May I suggest that you start a thread for what you feel should not be changed and draw your support from those that respond and agree with you.

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Despite the obvious dislike many of you have for rooting powers, it seems that everyone would rather have powers changed so they mesh better with the rooted concept rather than pushing for a change in powers like Unyielding Stance which cause you to be stuck in one spot in the first place.

I don’t have Unyielding Stance (every time I see a Tanker mention this, it’s followed by fifty-zillion “I don’t know how you possibly survive then” comments, yet somehow we do). What does this mean?

-It means I carry around a few discipline inspirations for emergencies and stock up on them when I’m going on a mission against the Rikti or the Devouring Earth.

-It means I target certain villains first and put them down as quickly as possible, because I know not having Unyielding Stance leaves me vulnerable to certain types of attacks.

-It means I may have to rely on some of the abilities my teammates have to help protect me.

-It means I don’t have to worry about sticking in one spot, and when villains are moving around for one reason or another, I’m right there with them. Thus, I’m not spending time cursing 90% of my powers.

Now, if you go by what the average level 40-50 player says, I’m doomed in that level range because you can’t turn around without running into someone that forces you to use Unyielding Stance to survive. If that’s true, I would call it a design flaw in the game. If the content beyond a certain level requires you to have a certain build to be able to continue playing and advancing, then it’s a flawed design, and that’s what you should be targeting your pleas for change against.

Honestly, I’ll have to see how it goes. Not having Unyielding Stance in the 40-50 game may require me to change my tactics, or rely on the abilities of my group members more. If the only way I can do it is by picking up Unyielding Stance, then this is a broken game in my opinion.

Anyway, when I read a post detailing why the powers in SS/Inv don't mix due to the dilemma of rooting, my answer to that has always been “stop rooting yourself then”. You don’t need Unyielding Stance to win each and every fight. Even if I had the power, I’d only end up relying on it a handful of times each mission, and I know this because I get by without it. Like all powers beyond a certain level, U.S. is meant to be situational, not staple. It blows my mind when a Tanker goes the U.S./Teleport route simply to become the positionable punching bag. Sure, they’re going to be way tougher than I am, but, geeze.. I guarantee you my fights are more entertaining to watch.

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Same boat here. No US, no TI, and I only just got Invince a little while ago. Though, my alternative to disciplines is to have Dull Pain waiting with a Healing SO. Even with just one healing SO in that, it effectively refills my HP by 1/3 while increasing the max- so the moment a Stun or whatever wears off, I hit the DP and start using my Ice Sword to slow down and incidentally KO whatever stunned me. I prefer to rely on my passives, so Stun doesn't worry me too much- I'm generally not fighting anything I can't handle with just the passives anyways.

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As for making the powers more enjoyable to an even wider population, no, you’re trying to make them into something you’ll enjoy, which may change them in such a way that suddenly many other players are not enjoying them. And while I can understand the desire to look out for your own personal interests, let’s not suggest we’re making things better for tankers everywhere by pushing for these changes.

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Key word here is MAY. While these changes may not be what the majority wants. Of the posters to the forums, the majority of posters do like these changes. If the changes go in and indeed effect many people negatively, they will go to the forums and start discussions for fixing them. As any company service, only those with problems will go out of their way to post how to fix it. If enough people were to express their opinions that these changes are indeed bad. The devs would more then likely listen.

This post was started to pose suggestions on fixing them. Since you don't feel they need fixed, then please don't post. May I suggest that you start a thread for what you feel should not be changed and draw your support from those that respond and agree with you.

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Actually, I have to post here because:

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This is now the official Super Strength thread. Standard rules apply. All other threads will be locked.

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This thread was not actually put forward as a brain storming session with suggestsions on how to fix tankers. It was put forward as a list of desired changed by the entire super-strength tanker community with a request for them to be rushed into the upcoming content patch. See the following:

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These changes are listed in order of priority. We (the SS Tanker community as a whole) would like to see these changes implemented within the Content Issue #2 patch. The majority of these changes reflect small number tweaks to existing code. These changes have been requested with thought to balance and gameplay being foremost.

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I did not voice my concerns about the removal of knockback (mainly because I was busy having fun playing my archetype instead of searching the forums for complaints about it) soon enough to have a shot at preventing it, and that change directly impacted my character in a negative way. These suggested changes will as well, and I won’t sit on the sidelines oblivious and quiet until the last moment and watch it happen again.

So, no, Mentalee_Fryde. While you are free to suggest that I not post here, I find that I’m free to continue posting my feelings on any suggested changes that will impact me, as I suspect anyone would want to.

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Likewise here- people keep saying I have to be solely aggro-grab and it really, really cheeses me off.

Fortunately, the number of people saying that is fairly low, even if they do say it a lot.

I would like to mention though, that Kruunch said that all tanker secondaries other than SS have two 'superior' damage attacks. I don't think Ice Melee has that. I actually have no complaints about the damage I do, but I don't recall seeing anything above 'Moderate' as a damage label on any of the Ice attacks. Did I miss something, or is that right?

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Oops yeah you're right. I don't know what category Freezing Touch got bumped up to but Ice was even more feeble then SS for damage (their offsetting perk was slow and holds (not a good sub for damage but ...)).

Fire also doesn't have a Superior or Extreme attack but they make up for it with 3 (4?) AOEs.

Menelee: What Genesis says is correct. He should feel free to voice his personal concerns about these proposed changes, just as you should feel free to support them. In the end, if there is an overwhelming majority supporting these changes and the devs don't find them to be hard to impelement or cause some other unforeseen problems, they may implement a few or even all of them at some point. The fact that they've implemented some already (KO Blow and the KB changes) leaves me optimistic for the future. Even if nothing else gets implemented I'm going to enjoy the crap out of what's on Test already

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Honestly, I’ll have to see how it goes. Not having Unyielding Stance in the 40-50 game may require me to change my tactics, or rely on the abilities of my group members more. If the only way I can do it is by picking up Unyielding Stance, then this is a broken game in my opinion.


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That's what Krunch has been saying for some time now. In a broader sense, sure, but still.

You are correct, this is the official SS thread as locked by CuppaJo. The KB issue has been discussed in about 4-5 other threads, Geko has proposed changes.

I do feel KB should be allowed for those that want it and Geko is trying to implement that now. The changes to KB have already been debated and debated. I am glad you had fun with it, that does not change the fact that that was a minority.

I based my response on yours
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In reality it does no good to present opposing viewpoints. I’ve expressed my viewpoints on tankers since the wee stages of beta and have nothing new to add, nor do I have a desire to restate my point of view in every “fix the tanker” thread that pops up. These threads will always exist until the game comes to an end, regardless of how decent the archetype is or ends up being in the future.

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If you are serious about this claim then your response on this thread should have been. "Here are my opinions on SS set" and left it at that. You felt the need to keep replying to everyone who disagreed with your opion.

I apologize if I misunderstood your intent, but from your words it does not do SS any good showing different view points and with this being the only thread allowed the I can completely see the need for you to post your opinion but to continue to debate them with others that do not agree is useless.

If you don't agree with their reply to your opinion, realize it is simply their opinion and leave it at that.

Krunch is using this thread as the discussion moves forward valid ideas and to add them to the list. I will fully support your opinions when I believe them to be correct and what the SS line needs. If we disagree, we disagree. But the majority of ideas that are agreed upon will be added to Krunch's list.

I am just trying to understand the continue posting on items that are in disagreeance, so bare with me.

Provide me with a reason to support your ideas and I will. I just ask, respectfully, if no one agrees with you, either seek others that do and have them post or take it to PM's and persuade others that have disagreed with you to change their minds. This should not be the place for "arguement debate" of this power is this way because.

I do tend to ramble so if it doesn't make sense let me know.

Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.