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Its the min-maxers who calculated the loss in DPS due to knockback that almost cost Super Strength its defining cool feature: Knockback.
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I'm far from a "min-maxer", I'm just a casual player (level 32 SS/Invuln tank on Pinnacle). While KB does indeed seem cool and looks great when you first get Haymaker, after a while it's nothing but a PITA not only for me to have to chase down the target, but also the other melees that are in my group. Also, it has the disavantage of knocking targets out of AE range.
Like Amway, KB looks good in theory and on paper. Once it's in practice though, you see it's flaws.
I'm definately up for these preposed changes. This is a good starting point, but then must get taken even futher... Good work Krunch and to everyone else who wants to pull the Tank out of the gutter, and putting them back on the podium with the rest of the ATs where we surely belong...nice
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I don't want Super Strength adjusted so that you can make another perverse Tanker-Scrapper combo. Its the min-maxers who calculated the loss in DPS due to knockback that almost cost Super Strength its defining cool feature: Knockback.
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You are so wrong here! I am a Champions player. I usually play a Brick, its my favourite character type. If I laid out my character design here you would see a very standard Tank build except that it has NO Taunt and NO Provoke.
But you know what we have to live in Paragon City. This means that as much as I HATE Unyielding Stance I can't survive with out it. All my suggestions have one thing in mind and that is making my characters more fun. There is no god mode hidden in those proposed changes on page 1. Just a power set that would be a damn site more playable.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I think what everyone is getting at here is there is a large difference between a min/maxxer who wants to play in god mode and a normal gamer who wants to develop a good character.
If I were truly a god-mode aspiring min/maxxer I'd be playing my Fire/Dev Blaster or one of my Scrappers or go roll a Fire Controller or some other such nonsense.
I tried that route. I don't like it.
Fair enough. If all these changes went in though, as requested, would Super Strength not be the ideal Tanker Secondary line? What would the shortcomings of Super Strength be?
It will naturally be the most popular and attractive due to its common appearance in Comic book heroes. It still is one of the most common secondaries even though it is commonly believed to be gimped. Once these changes go in, would the achetypical power-gamer not always point to super strength as the optimal Secondary?
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Fair enough. If all these changes went in though, as requested, would Super Strength not be the ideal Tanker Secondary line? What would the shortcomings of Super Strength be?
It will naturally be the most popular and attractive due to its common appearance in Comic book heroes. It still is one of the most common secondaries even though it is commonly believed to be gimped. Once these changes go in, would the achetypical power-gamer not always point to super strength as the optimal Secondary?
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Didn't you read anything of the original post in this thread?
Basically here is the breakdown of the playability of each Tanker secondary from best to worst (someone correct me if they think I'm wrong):
Fire (AOE damage is king in this game)
Axe (best single target damage of any of the Tanker secondaries)
Energy (great high end attacks)
Stone (good all around attacks)
Mace (mediocre attacks)
Super Strength (sub-par attacks)
Ice (nth degrees below freezing)
After the current changes that are on test:
Fire (AOE is still king)
Axe (best single target DPS ... possibly out of any Scrapper line as well)
Stone (all round better DPS then energy now (possibly))
Energy (still great high end attacks)
Mace (mediocre attacks but 2 AOEs)
SS (mediocre attacks but better DPS)
Ice (slightly above freezing)
After our proposed changes:
Fire the III (AOE is still king ... long live the king)
Axe (still the best single target DPS in the Tanker lines)
Stone (still better overall DPS then Energy (I think))
Energy (still great high end attacks)
SS (good DPS and smoother to play)
Mace (mediocre attacks but 2 AOEs)
Ice (still in hypathermia land)
Another point some people like to keep bringing up is the secondary effects. So let's take a look at that:
Knockback (current) - Worse possible secondary effect for a Tanker.
Knockdown (Test) - Cures the DPS woes (no more chasing mobs). Otherwise essentially useless (no long enough duration for mobs to lose an attack except for a couple of really high knockup powers.
Disorient - Great secondary effect if pathing is fixed. Currently broken (from the Tanker's perspective)
Slow - Eh. Ok secondary effect but totally meaningless in the 30+ game.
Sleep - Useless (since one of Ice's other powers breaks it)
Hold - Ultra short duration for Ice (I believe) but otherwise would be the best secondary effect.
The overall thinking on Tanker secondary power effects (by those that use them day in and day out) is that they're either mildly amusing, or downright frustrating to gameplay. None seem to overly enhance game play the way the game currently plays out.
As I am trying to illustrate here, these proposed changes are to make the SS Tanker a more fun character to play (more fun by being less frustrating to develop). As you said yourself, it's also one of the most popular secondaries in the Tanker AT because of conceptualization. Doesn't make sense that the AT line everyone can identify with also happens to be one of your worst ones. I just want to make it middle of the pack.
And finally a look at the SS powers themselves:
Jab - The weakest mandatory power in any of the Tanker secondaries.
Punch - The weakest second power in any of the Tanker secondaries (on a par with most power pool melee attacks)
Haymaker - Bread n' butter power.
Taunt - Mixed thoughts on this but every Tanker secondary has em so we'll leave it alone (most don't take it though).
Handclap - Considered a useless power by and large except by the minority who loves to see mobs go flying.
Knockout Blow - Currently a relatively useless power. Being made into a useful Superior attack power. However the caveat here is that it will be the lowest damaging Superior attack power out of any of the secondaries with twice the recharge time to boot.
Rage - our damage and accuracy buff. The only one in all the Tanker secondaries to come with a major drawback (20 second disorient at the end of it).
Hurl - Currently considered undesireable due to mediocre damage when compared to the freakishly long animation time and Knockback (in Issue #2 this will now have DOUBLE knockback).
Footstomp - Our only AOE damaging attack and is only attainable at L38. Good power.
Does that sound like an AT line you would want to play? RP or min/maxxer or just regular gamer?
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...Compared to a scrapper like Wolverine who cannot take the huge hits and cannot do as much damage but is faster and can do like 2-3 hits before Colossus finished 1 hit.
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I totally agree with what you have said except for one thing: Use Nightcrawler as your Scrapper, not Wolverine.
Wolverine can't take big hits and can't dish out big damage? My comics say differently. Wolverine can cut through foot-thick cadmium steel doors like butter, take down 30 foot sentinels single handedly, and shrug off direct hits from Juggernaut, Cyclops, and the Hulk.
I think this is one of the biggest problems with the melee ATs. Scrappers were based on Wolverine, who is NOT a Scrapper. The only things keeping Wolverine from being a Tank-mage are heat-vision and flight. Every other Scrapper in comics does far, far less "damage" than Wolverine, and they all do less "damage" per hit than the Tankers. Where they excel is speed, adaption to difficult circumstances, and the ability to take on multiple opponents at once.
What you say is correct, Scrappers should be fast, medium damage with a couple cones and/or AoEs, and tankers slow, high single target damage with one or two situational use, non- or low-damage cones and AoEs like Handclap. Scrappers in comics take out the hordes of minions while the Tankers take out the biggest guy around. This fits Nightcrawler/Colossus, Captain America/Hulk, and Batman/Superman (if you reduce Superman to his old-school Inv/SS tank with super leap version).
Also, if we weren't crowd-control anymore, you realize that knockback would be cool and fun, right? Who cares if we knock the boss all over the room, we are still taking him out and keeping him from hitting anyone else.
The problem is, switching this now would upset some Scrappers (though I think most would remain happy-- killing hordes of minions is what many of them do anyway, and it sure is fun). Of course, you've already got a lot of upset people, so I say do it anyway, just to get the game to where it should be.
Blah. Statesman isn't listening to this (or isn't willing to make such a radical change, even if it is for the better) though, so instead we have to just ask for removal of knockback and an increase in damage so we can be slightly more effective, but feel even less like comic tanks than we do now.
How dull.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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The bulk actually seems to be supportive of many of these changes.
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Actually, the boards represent an incredibly small minority of the playerbase. And within this tiny sampling there are players that simply choose not to comment in threads like this one because they not only disagree with what is being said, they also dont feel like stepping into the middle of (what feels like) a super-strength bash session and state I disagree! because its pointless. Your minds are already made up and youre not looking for opposition, just agreements.
For the record, I disagree with a lot of whats being said here. I disagreed with the changes to knockback. I do fine with my tanker and while I believe there are many large problems with balance in this game, I dont believe changing tankers powers left and right to work best within that imbalance is the correct way to go about things. I believe players perceive tankers as broken because they compare them against broken systems with problems that have nothing to do with tankers.
On an end note, I have to say Im curious (and this is a rhetorical question). Why did you all bother to stick with super-strength when you obviously arent happy with it? Honestly, it doesnt take very long to get a feel for this powerset. That is, super-strength leaves very little room for surprise as it is a very simple and straightforward set of powers. You can tell whether its a powerset youre going to like or not long before you've invested a whole lot of time into it. Obviously many of you dont like it. Personally, I wish those of you that dont would find which powersets you do like and play those instead, rather than attempting to change existing ones into something theyre not (and into something I didnt sign on for when I chose my powersets).
Obviously this isnt going to happen, but do understand there are players who like super-strength just fine and dont comment in threads like these for one reason or another. The vast majority of players dont even visit these forums, probably because theyre busy just enjoying the game and their powers in the first place.
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For the record, I disagree with a lot of whats being said here. I disagreed with the changes to knockback. I do fine with my tanker and while I believe there are many large problems with balance in this game, I dont believe changing tankers powers left and right to work best within that imbalance is the correct way to go about things. I believe players perceive tankers as broken because they compare them against broken systems with problems that have nothing to do with tankers.
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I'm glad you said this. I think the reason this thread is here, is that most of these people (myself somewhat included, not quite there yet) have either given up trying to get Tankers to be like Comic Tanks, or come from other MMORPGs and just want to make good meatshields that can deal decent damage.
Cryptic totally screwed up Tankers and Scrappers by basing Scrappers on Wolverine instead of Nightcrawler/Spiderman/Batman, and Tankers on a cross between The Blob and MMORPG Tanks instead of Colossus/The Thing.
If they hadn't done this, if we weren't given the crowd control role, and if Statesman wasn't sticking to his "Tankers role is to 'take damage'" stand, I bet nobody would be asking for knockback to be changed to knockdown.
On the other hand, Super Strength being so dramatically inferior to Axe, Firey Melee, and Energy Melee is just silly in a comic book game, so I support the effort to bring it up to their level, effectiveness wise, regardless of my position on what the "real" problems are.
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Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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"As it stands, making a soloable or offensively effective SS tanker takes an inordinate amount of work, and even then we're still lagging behind."
There's where the difference really kicks in, in differences between understandings of soloable or offensively effective.
I can solo 15 orange baddies, but it takes a good while. I find that normal. Offensively effective? I'm not as effective offensively as a scrapper or Blaster, but I stand toe to toe offensively with defenders and controllers. That seems reasonable to me.
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I'm not comparing Super Strength to scrapper or blaster damage, that's like comparing a kite to an F-15. I'm comparing SS to other tanker power sets when I say that its subpar, and since Super Strength is pretty much the classic comic book power, I think that's a bad thing.
You seem to be arguing mainly that you're content with SS as it is, which is fine. For the most part so am I. But I fail to see how any of these suggested changes will make your life harder. Even if all of these go through somehow, SS will not be in danger of unbalancing anything. We've actually put some thought into this, and as tankers I think we have as good as or a better appreciation of the balance issues facing this game than anyone else does.
Ultimately its up to the Devs. All we're doing is making suggestions.
"I'm comparing SS to other tanker power sets when I say that its subpar, and since Super Strength is pretty much the classic comic book power, I think that's a bad thing."
My argument is that Super Strength being the weakest is a good thing, precisely because it is the classic comic book power. That's why Fly has an -ACC and isn't as fast as others, for example. People still take fly foor the cool factor and they will still take Super Strength. HEck, they will still Make Super Strength Tankers knowing that they are subpar Scrappers in an effort to make the staple character.
People will naturally gravitate toward the staple powers and if there is to be any hope for variety in the game, the non-staple powers have to have something to offer.
So yes, you could argue that since people expect the staple powers to be the best, they should be the best, I would continue to argue otherwise.
Ideally, the difference should be marginal and some of the changes would simply move SS closer toward that margin. All the changes though would, IMO, put it above the others.
Genesis -
I think the answer to your question is: many didn't. I "stuck with Inv/SS" until L23, at which point it had become obvious that the knockback was making our group less effective as I was regularly bouncing things out of the Blasters', Controller's, and Defenders' AE effect ranges. "Use knock back to position mobs", you say? Well, in your 20s, not really an option. You can be mobile, and slept/held/stunned, or you can be immobile in Unyielding Stance, and then be unable to move yourself to allow effective repositioning.
Sure, if you pull all the bad guys into a dumpster or a blind alley or dead-end hall, maybe you can get into U.S. afterwards and bounce the guys into the wall where they don't fly off. But if your group has the patience for that, more power to you. I play with a mix of experienced MMOG'ers, and some relative newbies. The latter don't want to stand around for 3 seconds, much less longer, waiting for me to run mobs into someplace convenient to fight. I shouldn't be a steady source of inefficiency to the group.
My Inv/SS guy, Black Diamond, was build on the "Luke Cage" mental model. I found it a tad disconcerting that his punches were so ineffectual, compared to the damage being dealt by other members of the group, but I stuck that out, figuring my job was to take punishment. But the Knockback become too much, and while my concept called for Super Leap, it just didn't work well with U.S., and since our group is fairly casual in terms of amount of play time, I wasn't going to be L32 quickly enough to have Unstoppable as an option.
So I rolled a new tanker, Inv/Fire, because Fire melee has no knockback. I was pleasantly surprised that the damage was better, and that I actually had an effective AE attack before level 38.
Inv/SS has multiple problems that people have pointed out. It's much weaker than the comic-book-based people envisioned (clearly not Juggernaut, and considering the garden variety gang member hits harder with fist or baseball bat, I'm dubious you can call it "Super", other than in terms of the knockback "Superball Strength", perhaps? 
.
It combines poorly with Invulnerability, which one could argue was my fault, for choosing a defensive line whose status protection, for much of its development, requires immobility.
It combines poorly with other archetype's AEs. Unless you want to solo, this is -the- straw that breaks the camel's back. It also raises serious questions about the intelligence of the hero. He's not smart enough to learn to direct his blows to avoid knocking villains everywhere? Is it "Stupid Strength?"
Anyway, while some folks may like superball strength, it's got significant frustrations.
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The bulk actually seems to be supportive of many of these changes.
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Actually, the boards represent an incredibly small minority of the playerbase. And within this tiny sampling there are players that simply choose not to comment in threads like this one because they not only disagree with what is being said, they also dont feel like stepping into the middle of (what feels like) a super-strength bash session and state I disagree! because its pointless. Your minds are already made up and youre not looking for opposition, just agreements.
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Small, sure, but vocal nonetheless. As with any issue you have to speak up if you expect to be heard, which is the whole point of having a forum.
I stuck with Super Strength because it was the powerset I originally wanted. I stuck with it, played with it, and tried to find ways of making it fit the superhero concept it's based on. I was happy enough with it to keep going, though it was rather discouraging every time I played a new alt and invariably had an easier time of things. I like my SS tanker and will keep playing, and without Super Strength as a powerset I doubt I would have bought this game at all. I'm not going to just give up and play a different character when there is so much room for improvement here, and the Devs seem to actually listen.
If the vast majority are "busy playing and enjoying their powers" that's great. This is just trying to make those powers even more enjoyable to an even wider population.
If you have opposing viewpoints, present them. This isn't a dictatorship.
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Ideally, the difference should be marginal and some of the changes would simply move SS closer toward that margin. All the changes though would, IMO, put it above the others.
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Alright then, that's where we disagree. Realistically though, I don't expect even half of these suggestions to be seriously considered by a Dev, let alone implemented.
Anyway the more nitpicky back and forth we have in here, the less likely that either of our points will be considered by the head honchos, so I'm off to give my tanker a Sparkle aura on the test server for no good reason whatsoever.
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If the vast majority are "busy playing and enjoying their powers" that's great. This is just trying to make those powers even more enjoyable to an even wider population.
If you have opposing viewpoints, present them. This isn't a dictatorship.
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In reality it does no good to present opposing viewpoints. Ive expressed my viewpoints on tankers since the wee stages of beta and have nothing new to add, nor do I have a desire to restate my point of view in every fix the tanker thread that pops up. These threads will always exist until the game comes to an end, regardless of how decent the archetype is or ends up being in the future.
Sure, I can list examples and ways the powers and features of super-strength are useful to me. If you dont personally find the same properties useful, youre not going to agree with me. Chances are you wont even believe me to begin with. Oh, youll probably believe that I believe they're useful, but youll assume that I just havent had the opportunity to run into the same problems you have, but inevitably am doomed to do so, and then Ill see the light. If I then counter with a comment that Ive taken a tanker into the end level game, youll just assume Im willing to settle for playing a weak archetype when youre not. There is nothing I can gain from debating against your beliefs. But I can point out that theyre not universal by any stretch of the imagination.
As for making the powers more enjoyable to an even wider population, no, youre trying to make them into something youll enjoy, which may change them in such a way that suddenly many other players are not enjoying them. And while I can understand the desire to look out for your own personal interests, lets not suggest were making things better for tankers everywhere by pushing for these changes.
This is somehting i posted in another thread
Well This is my final Super Strength idea. First of all, Rage should be tweaked so it can give more dmg% boost, secondly knockoutblow should get extreme dmg or atleast a better recharge time, In Addition to that Hand Clap should be replaced with something thats useful (example of current horrible hand clap : Hand Clap activated, enemies fly, enemie says, " Hey you blaster i am gonna shove this knife right up your a$$ and kill you".) Well my point is, basically when you activate handclap enemies get scattered and stuned and when they unstun they go right after your teammates. Last but not least hurl, yes hurl. It has horrible damage, horrible recharge time, and horrible activation time.
Now to the fixing part. Tankers say they need more damage eh? Well the easiest way to do this is by giving rage more of a damage boost and making it a defining power in super strength like most 7th powers are (instant healing, invincible etc etc). As for the stun effect, it can be negated by unstoppable and from my personal expirience rage almost never stuns me only RARELY. In addition to that Unyielding Stance can also negate the stun effect. This would basically improve our over all dps and give us something more to do in av fights other than taunting provoking etc etc. Well for our second problem, knockout blow. I have no past expirience with the old one (in update #1). The damage seems pretty good but still not enough because its being send at such a slow rate. What can fix this is making kockout blow recharge faster or just improve the dmg to extreme. Now as for handclap, either its made to knockdown with minor or moderate damage or its out the ball park, seriously its not very effective since it scatters them with knockback then the enemies scatter themselves by running around stunned, after that they go boom the nearest blaster or scrapper. It would be nice to replace it with freeze breathe ranged attack (slow effect moderate dmg single target, small range). And about hurl, little damage, activation time that kills for no reward, and recharge time thats not worth it, Haymaker blows hurl out of the ball park. A fix would be to simply remove it and make it heat ray from eyes (moderate DoT single target small range). One last thing i forgot to mention, FootStomp. It is the last power in the set yet useless as to dmg. Energy melee has 2, yes u heard correctly 2 extreme damage moves, as to super strength NONE!!! It would be nice to make FootStomp extreme damage or reduce recharge time, You decide which is best.
for my conlusions, Super Strength is going in the right direction but still not enough to say its like another secondary, these fixes will make super strength a bit more solo-able and will give all angry ss tankers what they want without making it overpowered but just making it a real secondary. Thx for your time post your feedback on my ideas.
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The bulk actually seems to be supportive of many of these changes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the boards represent an incredibly small minority of the playerbase. And within this tiny sampling there are players that simply choose not to comment in threads like this one because they not only disagree with what is being said, they also dont feel like stepping into the middle of (what feels like) a super-strength bash session and state I disagree! because its pointless. Your minds are already made up and youre not looking for opposition, just agreements.
For the record, I disagree with a lot of whats being said here. I disagreed with the changes to knockback. I do fine with my tanker and while I believe there are many large problems with balance in this game, I dont believe changing tankers powers left and right to work best within that imbalance is the correct way to go about things. I believe players perceive tankers as broken because they compare them against broken systems with problems that have nothing to do with tankers.
On an end note, I have to say Im curious (and this is a rhetorical question). Why did you all bother to stick with super-strength when you obviously arent happy with it? Honestly, it doesnt take very long to get a feel for this powerset. That is, super-strength leaves very little room for surprise as it is a very simple and straightforward set of powers. You can tell whether its a powerset youre going to like or not long before you've invested a whole lot of time into it. Obviously many of you dont like it. Personally, I wish those of you that dont would find which powersets you do like and play those instead, rather than attempting to change existing ones into something theyre not (and into something I didnt sign on for when I chose my powersets).
Obviously this isnt going to happen, but do understand there are players who like super-strength just fine and dont comment in threads like these for one reason or another. The vast majority of players dont even visit these forums, probably because theyre busy just enjoying the game and their powers in the first place.
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Don't look now, but you're commenting.
And if you had actually read the first post of this thread you would have realized that these changes are being suggested as a balancing point within the AT, not the current game's lack of balance (which I did specifically address).
Why do I play a Tanker? Because I want to. Why do I lobby for changes? Because I would like to see this game improved. Don't begrudge me the opportunity to do that.
Finally: 94011 Registered User(s).
That's 50% of the current subscriber base. And a far greater majority of those people who play this game on a long term basis (the target demographic if you will).
Because Statesman wants to be disingenuous about the vocal opinions of those on these boards, doesn't mean he's actually telling the truth.
And yes, the bulk of long term players who do play SS Tankers have made their opinions known.
Krunch is exactly correct 
everyone has the right to opinion and freedom of speech And statesman or whoever said that the forums is a miniority shoulda thought about that before saying that the reason being is that A) we r taking the time to make suggestions B) doesnt matter how small or big the forums is, its the fact that atleast these indivisuals r taking their time to make suggestions to make this game better C) And if the forums are a miniority and the devs r not gonna listen to them since we r a "minority y did they make a forums..... exactly. now listen to this thread devs we r not making these threads for our pleasure of typing because seriously we r not, one thing we r doing this for is to better our gaming expoirience and to enjoy playing this game
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And if you had actually read the first post of this thread you would have realized that these changes are being suggested as a balancing point within the AT, not the current game's lack of balance (which I did specifically address).
Why do I play a Tanker? Because I want to. Why do I lobby for changes? Because I would like to see this game improved. Don't begrudge me the opportunity to do that.
[/ QUOTE ]
The game improved for whom? For you? Because its not for me. I dont consider these improvements.
And to be frank, you dont seem to want to play City of Heroes version of a Tanker. You seem more interested in playing an archetype that doesnt exist that you want to call Tanker. So again, with the archetypes options in mind, why did you choose an existing archetype you didnt want to play? Because you were hopeful that you could convince the developers to modify it for you?
See, I didnt enter this game thinking I want to be a tank type!. I came into the game with an idea of what kind of hero I wanted to make, perused over the powersets that CoH offered, and decided which matched most closely to my character concept. The Invulnerability and Super-strength pools (and not the names, the individual powers within) were the closest match on this particular idea, and so I ended up being a Tanker simply because it was the archetype that had these pools. And, for the most part, Ive found most of the powers to be fine. The ones that arent (to me) I avoid picking.
Now, maybe Tanker-type-X kicks more rear than I do, but Im frankly oblivious to that because I dont sit there running trials against Tanker-type-X to see how I stack up. All I know is that I seem to kick rear too. Does it matter that Tanker-type-X can kick more rear than me so long as I can kick it also? I guess, if youre the type that feels insecure about that sort of thing. I dont.
So, when someone comes on here and says We must make these changes in order for SS Tankers not to suck! and I comment I seem to do fine, I certainly dont feel like Im sucking.., and then someone tries to point out Yes, but compare yourself to Tanker-type-X and then youll see how much we suck!, Im kind of left thinking Who the [beep] cares? Did I miss the contest sign-in sheet? And then, to want to change around the powers I carefully and purposely chose for that silly reason? Nuh-uh. I cant jump behind a cause like that.
[ QUOTE ]
Finally: 94011 Registered User(s).
That's 50% of the current subscriber base. And a far greater majority of those people who play this game on a long term basis (the target demographic if you will).
Because Statesman wants to be disingenuous about the vocal opinions of those on these boards, doesn't mean he's actually telling the truth..
[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize this figure includes everyone that registered in beta, and registration from pre-orders. Three of those registered users are actually me, as I've registered two pre-order boxes (one at the last moment after deciding which prestige power to go with) and a beta account. Of course, I only actually have one real account, but its counting all three. It also includes players that dont even have accounts here anymore because theyve cancelled their service, and players that registered once and never returned to the forums, and those who simply use it for technical hardware issues. Youre kidding yourself if you think the number of players that actively make comments on balance issues is anywhere close to 50%.
And the idea of the forums being a vocal minority is not a new concept that can be pinned on Statesman. It is the way it has been on virtually every MMO and normal video game to date. Any long term gamer knows that. Most players that pick up a game never visit the forums tied to it.
Anyway, this is veering off track and Ive said my bit, so someone suggest again that a power like Handclap needs to be completely redesigned or removed so that I can sigh to myself and wonder if people actually play the same game I do.
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And if you had actually read the first post of this thread you would have realized that these changes are being suggested as a balancing point within the AT, not the current game's lack of balance (which I did specifically address).
Why do I play a Tanker? Because I want to. Why do I lobby for changes? Because I would like to see this game improved. Don't begrudge me the opportunity to do that.
[/ QUOTE ]
The game improved for whom? For you? Because its not for me. I dont consider these improvements.
And to be frank, you dont seem to want to play City of Heroes version of a Tanker. You seem more interested in playing an archetype that doesnt exist that you want to call Tanker. So again, with the archetypes options in mind, why did you choose an existing archetype you didnt want to play? Because you were hopeful that you could convince the developers to modify it for you?
See, I didnt enter this game thinking I want to be a tank type!. I came into the game with an idea of what kind of hero I wanted to make, perused over the powersets that CoH offered, and decided which matched most closely to my character concept. The Invulnerability and Super-strength pools (and not the names, the individual powers within) were the closest match on this particular idea, and so I ended up being a Tanker simply because it was the archetype that had these pools. And, for the most part, Ive found most of the powers to be fine. The ones that arent (to me) I avoid picking.
Now, maybe Tanker-type-X kicks more rear than I do, but Im frankly oblivious to that because I dont sit there running trials against Tanker-type-X to see how I stack up. All I know is that I seem to kick rear too. Does it matter that Tanker-type-X can kick more rear than me so long as I can kick it also? I guess, if youre the type that feels insecure about that sort of thing. I dont.
So, when someone comes on here and says We must make these changes in order for SS Tankers not to suck! and I comment I seem to do fine, I certainly dont feel like Im sucking.., and then someone tries to point out Yes, but compare yourself to Tanker-type-X and then youll see how much we suck!, Im kind of left thinking Who the [beep] cares? Did I miss the contest sign-in sheet? And then, to want to change around the powers I carefully and purposely chose for that silly reason? Nuh-uh. I cant jump behind a cause like that.
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Finally: 94011 Registered User(s).
That's 50% of the current subscriber base. And a far greater majority of those people who play this game on a long term basis (the target demographic if you will).
Because Statesman wants to be disingenuous about the vocal opinions of those on these boards, doesn't mean he's actually telling the truth..
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You do realize this figure includes everyone that registered in beta, and registration from pre-orders. Three of those registered users are actually me, as I've registered two pre-order boxes (one at the last moment after deciding which prestige power to go with) and a beta account. Of course, I only actually have one real account, but its counting all three. It also includes players that dont even have accounts here anymore because theyve cancelled their service, and players that registered once and never returned to the forums, and those who simply use it for technical hardware issues. Youre kidding yourself if you think the number of players that actively make comments on balance issues is anywhere close to 50%.
And the idea of the forums being a vocal minority is not a new concept that can be pinned on Statesman. It is the way it has been on virtually every MMO and normal video game to date. Any long term gamer knows that. Most players that pick up a game never visit the forums tied to it.
Anyway, this is veering off track and Ive said my bit, so someone suggest again that a power like Handclap needs to be completely redesigned or removed so that I can sigh to myself and wonder if people actually play the same game I do.
[/ QUOTE ]Is there anything about the super strength power set that you are unhappy about? Anything at all?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seems to me that you're satisfied with what you're playing right now. If these changes do in fact increase the amount of damage that you can do, or the ease of playing your character, how does that hurt? You've stated that you enjoy knockback. You've also stated that you don't seem to mind the damage you do. If SS gets a minor damage boost to a couple powers, and you have to slot one KB enhancement to return it to its current usefulness, doesn't that negate the loss of an ehancement?
Personally, it seems you're railing against this change to maintain the status quo. I fail to see how increasing damage, decreasing knockback, and giving you access to a damaging AoE is going to decrease your character's effectiveness.
I'm not being rude, I'm honestly confused. Perhaps I just don't know how you make use of these attacks/secondary effects that is so useful.
If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Any chance you can explain?
The I do a problem with one thing you said earlier, Genesis, in telling people that are unhappy with SS to get a different powerset. You state that you are a concept player that makes a character, but you deny that luxury for someone else. Or is that that you expect people with a character concept to have weaker characters by design? I am honestly curious and completely non-hostile about this.
I have 2 character concepts that focus on super-strength. Not using an axe, sword or mace, not having glowing fists or energy, or drawing negative energy from some netherworld, or using martial arts. But being really, really strong. Is it fair that those characters are 50% less effective on a team because I make that choice? I don't think it is. I don't think it is fair to me when I solo, or to the teams I play with when I group. I am not asking if you care about it from your own personal point of view, you have made it clear you don't make those kind of judgement calls. That's cool. But the question remains, is it fair to others who, through character concept or ignorance of the terrible balance among tanker secondaries, are left to operate with a secondary powerset that has less than 50% of the overall offensive capability of most other secondary powersets?
I'm afraid this thread will start falling into flame wars now...
Please do not argue saying "your vision is wrong", just say what YOU think should be changed.
It IS a fact that SS is underpowered compared to the other tankers and as stated above it has nothing to do with the perseption of comic book tanker. That is an entire diferent topic.
The point here is to balance out SS between the other tanker secondaries.
If you think these are not the solutions to this underpowering, then just say what you would propose, if you think this powerset is balanced then i doubt you will feel hurt if you got a boost from the issues stated here.
I also noted i dont like my knockbacks taken away, that is being talked about somewhere else, making knockback enhancements add damage is a very good idea, and i dont think it will take code at all, after all, enhancements are database entries, just like powers are.
BTW, I have yet to see anyone do their sugestions (on another thread of course) abot ice melee...
On a side topic, wont get too far from the topic, if tankers where made into comic book tankers, where they do heavy damage on slow hits (this should be long animations, not just long refresh, to avoid hasten abuse), i can see ice/axe/ss/mace/stone all being hard hiters, but i have never really seen a comic book fire tank...
Has anyone seen this? I just cant visualize a fire tank as a slow heavy hiter...
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And to be frank, you dont seem to want to play City of Heroes version of a Tanker. You seem more interested in playing an archetype that doesnt exist that you want to call Tanker. So again, with the archetypes options in mind, why did you choose an existing archetype you didnt want to play? Because you were hopeful that you could convince the developers to modify it for you?
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He CLEARELY wants to play a CoH version of a tanker. Else he would be asking for slow heavy hit attacks and he is not doing that. He wants the power set to be up to par with the other tanker secondary power sets.
Really quick, and just going off the first post as an example of suggestions.
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3) Hurl changes. Bump Hurl up to Superior damage (change of graphic to match Propel would be nice too, but certainly secondary). Increase recharge time to 16s (this is to bolster the SS line with a second Superior or better damage power to match all of the other Tanker secondaries). Many people are asking for Extreme damage considering the double KB effect being proposed for this by Geko (and SS has no Extreme category damage power currently).
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I have no desire to see the recharge time of this power doubled. This power is useful to me in situations that require it being available on demand. Doubling its recharge time lessens the chance of it being ready as the tool I use it for. To me, its not a power that represents yet another button that deals damage. I have more than enough offensive attacks and do not require an additional one to add into my cycle. I do, however, require it to be ready when I need it for specific circumstances. Many of the higher-end powers work this way.. they are situational attacks, not extra damage opportunities. Fast re-use time fulfills one of those roles while higher damage does not.
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4) KB changes. While currently in the works and in line with what has already been proposed by Geko, we would like to see the Knockdown rule apply across the board for all SS powers (all Tanker secondaries really) that currently have Knockback in them (including Hurl and Handclap) with the ability to add Knockback enhancements in them as the player chooses.
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Im completely against this suggestion if it does not come with the following feature (that I have backed since it was first mentioned):
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Additional suggestion is just to have a KB/KD switch that a player can run in game to choose whether to have knockback or knockdown. The rationale being that players who like knockback shouldn't be penalized moreso for having to replace a damage enhancement with a knockback enhancement on top of the DPS penalty for the actual knockback itself.
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Without the latter, I am completely against the former.
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5) Exchange Footstomp and Knockout Blow on progression order (important for build schedule). If Hurl changes (#3 above) are implemented then place Hurl at the L38 spot, Knockout Blow in place of Hurl in progression and finally Footstomp in the L20 spot in place of Knockout Blow.
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This seems more like a personal request and I disagree with it for likewise reasons. This may be important to his build schedule, but its not to mine (and in fact would have interfered with my build schedule). Hurl is a power I feel I have to wait long enough for as is, and knockout blow was useful when it became available (so I wouldnt want to have to wait any longer for it either).
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6) Handclap. Add the ability to enhance Handclap with Taunt Duration enhancements. Buff base Taunt Duration slightly. Allow enhanceable knockback but knockdown by default. Decrease recharge time to 12s. This would be a replacement power for Provoke ideally (#8 below).
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I have no interest in seeing yet another power be stripped of its knockback and replaced with knockdown, nor using an enhancer to recover the knockback on this attack.
Heck, I still remember the day I landed on the catwalk high above the streets of Terra Volta and had more Sky Raiders than I could count swarming all over me. The only thing that saved me at that moment was breaking out the handclap and sending at least half of them over the railing and crashing far to the street below with a single move, leaving a manageable amount for me to deal with until the main force could slowly path their way back to my location in smaller packs. Tell me why I dont want Handclap to do knockback again?
Obviously Im not going to sit here and say No, attack-X should not do an ounce more damage!, as that would be silly. If the developers want to make it do more damage, then sweet. I may not necessarily agree that it needs to be more damaging, but Im not going to oppose it until someone starts trading in features to get their request considered (i.e. more damage, but less speed!)
Warspite:
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The I do a problem with one thing you said earlier, Genesis, in telling people that are unhappy with SS to get a different powerset. You state that you are a concept player that makes a character, but you deny that luxury for someone else. Or is that that you expect people with a character concept to have weaker characters by design? I am honestly curious and completely non-hostile about this.
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Warspite, Ill put it this way.
Lets say the two of us agree to fund a one-slot snack machine together at our office. I only buy into the idea because you assure me itll be filled with cookies. However, being a candy person you really dont like cookies, but assume that after Ive invested time and money into the idea you can eventually get things changed so that the machine will be stocked with candy, which I abhor. Now ask me why Id be annoyed.
This is how I feel when people want to change the powers that make up the character I spent time leveling up, powers that I picked for a reason. Personally, if I was looking for the type of character some Tankers seem to want, I would have said "Doesn't exist, I better come up with something else", and I've had to do just that on many concepts. Never did it cross my mind to try and convert an existing one into what I want it to be by campaigning for change on the forums. I'm willing to make the best of the options I'm handed, and while there's nothing wrong with trying to reach for something more, it becomes wrong when you start stepping on others to get there.
Losing knockback on Haymaker (unless you're willing to sacrifice a valuable enhancer slot) was the first such example and casualty of this, in my opinion.
Here is my proposed dream version of the Super Strength power set.
Level 1: Jab...just fine as is.
Level 2: Punch...just fine as is. Perhaps increase the recharge delay and damage both by 25%.
Level 4: Hand Clap...move this here as a 'Rival' to Provoke. Lower the endurance cost, and remove the Disorient. As of this power, you start to feel like a Comic Book Tanker. The aggro this generates might be troublesome to inexperienced players at this level, but the Knockdown will help them.
Level 10: Taunt...because it has to go somewhere, I suppose.
Level 16: Footstomp...a natural follow up to Hand Clap, and with merely Moderate damage, I don't feel this is overpowered or overly complex here.
Level 20: Haymaker...Your level 20 power should define the secondary. As of now, it's "Clobbering Time". This attack should do at least Superior damage, and it should do knockBACK. I can see balancing this with a lack of slotability for damage or recharge, very long recharge, even making it a sniper attack. You should be able to use this power to one-shot white minions at the beginning of a fight, and use it occaisionally, but to much appreciated effect, in long fights.
Level 28: Rage...I personally have no issue with the disorient, but an alternative would be a speed and damage debuff.
Level 35: Hurl...Propel animation, please. And make it an AoE.
Level 38: Knockout Blow..."Finish Him!" Move this here as the crowning power in the set. I am currently confused as to whether this power Sleeps or not, but I think it should.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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"This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage."
Don't take this wrong, but anyone who wants to run this kind of character really has to sit back and be silent about what powers should and shouldn't be able to do. You are a min-maxer who wants to squeeze every ounce of effectiveness out of every power. That is not what the bulk of us want.
I don't want Super Strength adjusted so that you can make another perverse Tanker-Scrapper combo. Its the min-maxers who calculated the loss in DPS due to knockback that almost cost Super Strength its defining cool feature: Knockback.
You don't have a concept of what 'normalized' characters are doing with these power sets. You don't appreciate that Super Strength is perfectly fine in a normalized environment. You want it skewable.
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I have to take issue with both the tone (Krunch was far more polite to you than I would have been) and the reasoning.
Its not the players fault that the design is broken, its the devs. Pure and simple. If KB was not detrimental to playing a brick (like it isn't in any tabletop SH game) no-one would have asked for changes to it.
Don't take this wrong, but you really have no idea what other Tanker powersets and other ATs are really capable of. Why is it wrong to ask for equality in potential between tanker secondaries? If you want to keep your current gimpy damage and high knockback, just slot 2 damage, 2 KB and whatever else you want - why does allowing people that want to do something different, to be effective and contribute to teams on more than one level, bother you so much?