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I believe every primary and secondary needs something to make it appealing. With the lack of any significant damage capability, I see no reason why SS cant be THE definitive aggro management secondary.
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Beat_Knuckle, in my opinion, aggro-management is one of the cornerstones of the entire AT. It's fine to give the various secondaries an advantage in their own niche, be it some ranged ability or slows, or disorients or what have you. Aggro-management is not a "niche" however and all tankers should have equal access to the same level of control.
Bonesnap,
Firstly, I disagree. Not every tanker absolutely has to have the same level of any aspect of Tanking. Some tankers should be better at certain aspects of tanking than others, making them different from each other.
That said, every Tanker secondary line DOES have an extra power that could be changed to be a superclap. Outside of Stone and Super Strength, that would include giving up an attack though.
Every Tanker secondary line but Stone and Super Strength has seven attacks. Stone and Super Strength have six attacks and Fault and Hand Clap as non-damage disorients.
If every other Tanker line gave up an attack to be modified, they could have something similar to 'superclap' too.
Energy - Modified Stun
Fire - Modified Combustion maybe? Incinerate?
Ice - Modified Frozen Aura or Frozen Touch
Battle Axe - Modified Whirling Axe or Pendulum
War Mace - Modified Whirling Mace or Crowd Control
(or any other power per secondary line that data mining shows just isn't getting used much, if there is one)
Now, right now I'm pretty sure every non-Stone or Super Strength tanker's head is spinning around like a top like that possesed girl in the Exorcist. I doubt anyone wants to give up an attack to have a 'superclap', but if you really want every Tanker line to be 'equal' and have the same or similar 'assets', then that is what would have to happen. All Tanker secondary lines would have six attacks and a themed 'superclap'.
Again, I don't agree that's the best thing though. I think it is perfectly reasonable that Stone and Super Strength tankers get a super-powered provoke ability to set them apart just as Axe and Fire have offensive capabilities that set them apart.
I think handclap is fine. Maybe give it a minor DOT. But changing it into a provoke alternative negates what it was meant for. Taking into account that the devs doubled the KB on handclap (and Hurl), would seem to agree. I think using it as an "oh crap" power is how it should be. Admittedly some builds don't alway need an "oh crap" power. But I am sure in some situations it would be useful, I have used it as such myself mainly for my other team members though. Though it's usage would be rare, those few occasion where you need it, I am sure it would be very valuable.
Well, was making the suggestion with a couple of things in mind. Mainly the proposal that started this thread, which suggests moving Foot Stomp down to be available in the teens like Energy's Whirling Hands is. Foot Stomp fits the bill for causing some AOE damage that does some knockdown/back.
Hand Clap would serve a lot less purpose as it currently is at that point, and while I've really enjoyed it myself, many tankers seem to indicate it is a skippable power anyway. I can't really argue with that too much to be honest. It is pretty much fluff in its current form, but that's just my opinion.
Very true, not every Tanker secondary has an AOE non-damaging Provoke replacement candidate in that sense.
I should have said that every Tanker line has either that or just a damaging AOE (and all Tanker secondaries already have a built in taunt to their attacks).
I'd much rather have a Superior damage AOE to replace my Provoke. Since I don't, I'm proposing a compromise. Keep the damage, give me the utility (I'd gladly do the reverse however if offered).
And no, I don't agree that all Tankers need to be the same in ability to tank or manage agro. I'd be peeved if Fire Tankers could take as much damage as Inv Tankers. However I have no problem with a smart Fire Tanker being able to manage agro a lot better then I can (they just have the powers for it).
I like it, thank you mr krunch! 
But, I've been thinking. They supposedly looked over super strength already, which is where the knockout blow change came from. So the balance team must have already decided that the rest of the super strength line is fine as it is. I would love to hear Statesman's, geko's or any dev's view on why the rest of the super strength line should remain as is and way below other tank secondaries.
I don't want scrapper damage, I just want to be able to keep up with other tanks. oh! and to throw anything other than just rocks, that would be nice too.
Well it's not as simple as that from a post release point of view. In beta and pre-beta you can tweak powers however you want and get down to what you desire (more or less). In the post release game, with the paying public (us) watching and critiqueing every move you do, you don't get that kind of luxury. And you desperately don't want to overbalance the AT so that SS becomes the new uber FOTM AT (forcing a nerf of the AT later).
I'll give you a good example and it starts right here with this thread. Let's say the developers took everyone's suggestions with respect to how they wanted damage pumped up across the line. This is what the new SS line would look like:
Jab - Moderate Damage (lowside)
Punch - Heavy Damage
Haymaker - Superior Damage
Handclap - Minor damage AOE
Knockout Blow - Extreme Damage
Hurl - Extreme Damage
Footstomp - Heavy Damage AOE
Rage - 80% damage buff
You know what this build would produce? A pre-nerf Fire Tanker. The only difference would be that with this build I wouldn't have to wait around for the mobs to die in Burn patches. I'd just run in with Rage on, Footstomp .. Hanclap, run to the next pack. Rinse and repeat.
Basically I'd be recreating a really short ranged Blaster. One that has the bonus of being virtually unkillable.
So this is why the developers won't rush out changes, even if they see them as the most common sense things to do. And I sincerely doubt that the developers have a person playing an SS Tanker, 2-4 hours a day, everyday. You really need that kind of exposure to see clearly what the problems are from day to day, mob to mob, zone to zone, level to level and so on.
Is anyone else getting weird tells. I spent about 20 minutes with a "newbie" tanker last night. He was asking all sorts of pointed questions about Super Strength. What I liked, what I didn't, how my primary worked with my secondary. What changes I'd like to see. Wanted to team for a while but I was on a full SuperGroup mission. I just wondered cause it was either an interview for Tanker and Squishie magazine or the newly famous name. Turn me into an NPC will they?
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I get tons of tells in-game (stupid big mouth here) and some of them get down right hilarious with some of the questions and requests.
My favorite so far: "Hi I've been playing this game since 2002 but this is the first time I'm trying a Tanker. Since everyone knows SS is teh uber can you level me please?"
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My favorite so far: "Hi I've been playing this game since 2002 but this is the first time I'm trying a Tanker. Since everyone knows SS is teh uber can you level me please?"
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ROFLMAO!!! I need a good laugh.
Ok, of your sugestions i would not change taunt to an area effect.
To solve (try) the overal tanker agro problem i would increase the mag of every tanker secondary attack to the maximun mag for the high+ damage attacks and just slightly less for the other attacks. Over this i would give every attack an additional small radius AOE taunt effect of magnitude one lever lower than that of the target.
Attacks that already are aoe obviously would not do an additional aoe around each affected target, just the ones that got hit by the aoe will get the effect.
I note this should only be for all secondary set powers, note this because else chilling embrace and fire aura alone would grant infinite taunt.
The duration of this should not be mitigable, it should always last the same, but it will hit only if the attack hits.
Above this i would add an endurance cost to the real Provoke, this way other character types will have a harder time using a tanker intended power for free. (Side note that fears will be changed, i guess the same will come for this pools final power).
This will change most of the agro issues of the tanker, true he will be forced to be on melee range of enemies to get the agro he needs, for the exception of single targets with taunt, but that also gives more reason to bring a controler aboard (another topic but they too need insentive to be on a team these days).
In my eyes, the tanker should not be perfect at his job, he should have to struggle here and there, just like most ATs have to, that is why i am sugesting the ranged provoke be nerfed further with endurance cost ONCE we are given other means to hold agro.
A note i have not seen mentioned (or missed badly) in this thread is that the handclap sugestion of duration does not seems to note that this power consumes a lot of endurance. Even sloted, if you used it every 10 seconds for a fight you would run out of end very fast. Not sure how it is on test now, though.
The more I think about it, the more I like our proposed changes to Handclap and have it replace or supplement Provoke. The game mechanics require that Tanks have aggro control, but to get there you need Taunt and/or Provoke. Neither of those makes a lot of sense from a role-playing aspect. If you read a comic where the Human Torch dropped a nova and defeated a dozen Doombots, Dr. Doom and the surviving bots are not going to stop going after him because the Thing called them some names. For that matter, how do you insult Doombots (or Fungoids, or Swarms, or Mek-Men, or aliens etc.) Either the Thing does a lot of damage to Doom and his minions so they ignore the Torch to focus on the biggest threat, (AoE damage) or the Thing does a "Handclap" that blows out their eardrums (low damage, high "provoke"). They would then focus on the Thing because he was causing them the most pain (but not the most damage).
Provoke and Taunt really are closer to mind control powers. Maybe the Controllers should have a power that Provokes mobs to another teammate (the Tanker).
The Devs want everything to work as far as game mechanics, but they also want to make sure everything makes role-playing sense in the context of the game. That's why we have this huge backstory about why nobody has capes until Issue #2, even though I'm sure there are a lot of players who don't really care. These proposals would let them do that.
EveryNighters:
Tar Heel Lvl 50 Inv/SS Tank
Knight of Purgatory Lvl 50 Fire/Ax Tank
Kilmainham Wall Lvl 50 Stone/Stone Tank
Re-Fridgerator Lvl 50 Ice/Ice Tank
Yankee Doodle Dandy Lvl 50 Will/Eng Tank
Teen Tar Heel Lvl 50 MA/SR Scrapper
EvilNighters:
Tar Heel Dead Lvl 50 DD Brute
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Provoke and Taunt really are closer to mind control powers. Maybe the Controllers should have a power that Provokes mobs to another teammate (the Tanker).
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This would be cool on so many levels.
Of course no one would ever group with Controllers again but ... *evil smirk*
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This would be cool on soon many levels.
Of course no one would ever group with Controllers again but ... *evil smirk*
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LOL - no kidding! But such a cool idea!
Different controllers could have different ways of doing it too. A gravity controller starting some sort of gravity field around the Tanker that sucks all nearby bad guys toward them for instance. I hope the Devs grab this one for the idea box!
Following DS post, it gave me an idea...
If the Thing decided to clober some lowsy minion of Dr Doom for half an hour, Dr. Doom would not care at all and just ignore him. BUT if the Thing started clubering Dr Doom, not only he would turn arround to focus on this high cripling threat (since every hit the Thing does knocks him arround), but he would call all his minions to focus on him too.
How nice would it be if you at tacked a Liewtenant, that he yelled to his lower lvl rank friends (minions in this case) "ignore the others, focus on this pestering Krunch!!!"
With this you just have to actualy focus on keeping the big boss, or the next best thing, bussy untill he falls. After this the minions would be confused and they will start attacking rampantly, they do will be very subebtible to taunts and provokes. But lieutenants, bosses and AVs, should all be imune to provoke and taunt.
What if there are multiple enemies of the highest rank? (example 2 lieutenants)... HANDCLAP! Wirlwind axe! Fire Sword Circle... and so on! A longer duration on the taunt effect caused by normal hits will also help you to jugle between hitting 2 liewts or 3 in a row to keep them all bussy.
THAT sounds like a fun battle to me, anyway!
As for the controler being able to give others agro, i recall EverQuest had a similar thing for Shadow Knights, where the Shadow Knight would increase the amount of hate a creature had against any enemy of his choice with the use of his dark powers. Would be interesting to see something similar here for a few contrlers, not only mind ones, but not all of them ether, just those that fit. (Dark controler surely needs it).
note: Excuse my spelling, english not my first language and i have no spellshecker at hand right now.
Ok, I haven't read the whole thread yet, and I will and will make comments later (I have some work to do), but I wanted to make this statement:
I fully support these changes, but I do NOT think that this will be enough to make Super Strength comparable to Axe, or late-game Energy Melee.
Reliance on Rage to get our damage to equal theirs still handicaps us, because they now have a higher damage cap than we do, and because they still have Buildup.
Anyway, I'll comment more later.
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Excellent work, Krunch! A giant step in the right direction. A fix for a game which I personally enjoy, but have problems with.
Ladies and gentlemen, keep this post alive. Maybe the Devs will wake up and realize that the tanker community is unhappy with the lack of direction they're taking with the tanker line in general.
I'd like to point out that axe has:
3 Superior Dmg Attacks
2 Extreme Attacks
Of these, 1 Superior is a CONE.
There is also a PBAoE thats Moderate.
The Axe level 38 is the Superior dmg Cone, the SS level 38 is a moderate PBAoE.
Axe has a level 28 moderate PBAoE.
I dont think any discussion of the relative worths of SS can be truly discussed before it gets WAY more high dmg attacks. Its currently abysmal, and even with the proposed changes, which I agree with, it'll still be sub par.
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Looks better then what we have now.
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I'm very much opposed to the Rage changes. Raising the timer? How will this help SS tankers? Also, how would a -DEF or an Endurance hit help either?
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I'm very much opposed to the Rage changes. Raising the timer? How will this help SS tankers? Also, how would a -DEF or an Endurance hit help either?
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It helps by being less completely debilitating than the current drawback, which leaves you disoriented and helpless unless you use it with US or Unstoppable, and even then any additional disorient effect will send you reeling around like a drunken fool while the mobs open up a party-sized can of spank on you and your team.
I'd gladly have a full duration Def penalty AND an endurance hit/freeze instead of something that leaves me with no control of my hero whatsoever.
Wait, wait, disorients STACK? I've never been stunned while using Unyeilding Stance.
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Wait, wait, disorients STACK? I've never been stunned while using Unyeilding Stance.
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Rage's disorient is a heavy magnitude one, enough at least to cap Unstoppable's resist so that any other stun you get during that time will break through and hit you. US seems to be more durable, but I bet you could still get nailed through it if enough effects pop at the same time. I've gotten stunned through Unstoppable even without Rage in fights with multiple Tank Smashers and Freak Slammers hitting me simultaneously (the TV respec trial on the test server for example).
It might take a somewhat extreme encounter to push you over the limit, but trust me, things can get very messy very quick if it does happen.
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I would definitely keep Taunt in the secondary line. It has its single target pulling uses.
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I said this in the last thread: If Taunt must remain in the Tanker Secondaries, please, PLEASE, reduce the animation time to 1 second. I just got the new Katana taunt animation on the Test server, and it is cancelable after about a second. It is wonderfully short, cool looking, and doesn't make my female character sound like a man when doing it (though the Katana one doesn't have ANY sound).
If we have to have a single target taunt, for the love of god, reduce the animation time. The only reason I took Provoke instead of it is because the animation time is half that of Taunt, looks cooler, and sounds perfect, nevermind the AoE aspect.
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[ QUOTE ]
Its not like were going to do any power leveling with Handclap as a taunt.
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Hahaha. Can't argue with that!
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04