Moonbeast

This is similar to the Increase Density issue. Not only is the buff shorter than Clear Mind, but it has the movement penalty.

It receives some resistance to smashing and energy but doesn't cover Sleep, which Clear mind does.

If the energy/smashing resistance is deemed to be better than Sleep resistance, then why does Increase Density have *two* other shortcomings (duration and movement penalty)?

It seems like the durations should be the same for the two powers and let the movement penalty offset whatever advantage Energy/Smashing vs Sleep is deemed to have.

Wow. 8 man groups in hazard and trial zones being the ideal way to experience COH?

Am I being driven into the arms of Blizzard or what?

I don't want to depend on these massive, unwieldy groups of strangers every time I want to play. In EQ, we were basically forced to create large groups and large guilds to accomplish anything. Sure, you could peck at the content solo or with a partner but if you wanted the "meat" of the game you *had* to be in a guild and it *had* to contain a solid core of very active players. Anything less and you simply couldn't get the coverage necessary to consistently create sold, effective groups.

I don't log on at the same time every day. I don't log on for 4 hours at a stretch. When I log on for a couple of hours, the prospect of finding a large group, which will inevitably lose a player every 15 minutes, is incredibly daunting....almost to the point where instead of eagerly waiting for Issue 2, I'm now dreading it.

I'm afraid that in an effort to give a small core of what they hope will be long term powergamers a sufficient challenge to keep them actively engaged in the game, the devs are driving a spike into the heart of COH.

The core demographic of COH is *NOT* the serious, committed EQ guild player. Those people are going to be playing *other* games. Without loot or high end rewards, there is simply not the type of content required to keep those players. The devs are chasing a playerbase that they are destined to lose to other games and in the interim are going to alienate the players who really saw the hope and promise of a *different* type of online game.

Kinda sad really.

I had basically told several of my friends that I would not be migrating to WoW. I didn't want the EQ-style grind and gameplay that the WoW beta showed me was in store for me. Now, if it's a choice between a grinding, forced grouping CoH and a grinding WoW, then give me the one where more people will be playing.

I didn't sign up for CoH to play 8 man groups. I also didn't sign up to play a solo/duo game that is basically pecking at the scraps left behind by a forced-grouping-grinding game design strategy.

It's too late to change horses midstream. You are what you are. Play to your strengths, because to do otherwise is a huge mistake.

Good deal. Now this whole mess can go away. I can now get two badges!

Oh, and for the Canadian player who seemed to think that I (as an American) would somehow be

"on the edge of taking offense at the fact that I am supposed to stand beside a meaningless (to me) flag as a symbol of my character's concept of "Freedom"."

It wouldn't bother me one bit. You know what? I liked Alpha Flight. I thought they had cool costumes. There's a canadian guild on my server that has people from all over that have cool, canadian flag inspired costumes and you know what? They look very cool. It wouldn't bother me *one bit* to wear the leaf on my costume if a mission was about saving Canada. If there was an expansion centered in Nova Scotia, I'd be all over it and singing Oh Canada till the cows come home.

Very nice. Energy has to wait till 38 for Total Focus. If KB remains at 20 and has the same damage scaling as TF, then I'd say this move alone goes a long way to putting SS right there with EM which is widely considered one of the two best secondaries.

Sweet!

I can hear Bonesnap creaking down in the basement, I may need to add some 4 in 1 oil to his hinges.

Excellent news. Forced Grouping = Cancellation in my case, so any efforts the devs make to keep the game solo-friendly (as advertised) is, in my case, a positive customer friendly decision.

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I believe every primary and secondary needs something to make it appealing. With the lack of any significant damage capability, I see no reason why SS can’t be THE definitive aggro management secondary.

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Beat_Knuckle, in my opinion, aggro-management is one of the cornerstones of the entire AT. It's fine to give the various secondaries an advantage in their own niche, be it some ranged ability or slows, or disorients or what have you. Aggro-management is not a "niche" however and all tankers should have equal access to the same level of control.

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Hey Bonesnap, sorry for the confusion. The Handclap changes were listed as a preference. The Provoke changes were thrown in there (across all Tanker secondaries) should the Handclap changes not be desireable the devs (as an alternative suggestion basically). My thinking is was that if they made the Handclap changes, they would go across the rest of the Tanker secondaries and make similar changes (as the rest of the Tanker secondaries have a non-damaging AOE I believe). It should have really been an either or under the same suggestion. Hopefully they don't get tripped up when reading that.

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Actually, the other secondaries would be hard pressed to have an ae aggro power similar to Superclap worked in without giving them an even bigger "powerup" than the Clap would be.

Axe - No non-dmg ae. Whirling Axe is ae but it's a superior dmg attack

Energy - Whirling Hands is ae and is Moderate Damage. They have a non-damage power in Stun, but I don't see them changing it to an AE Provoke/Stun

Ice - Ice Patch is ae, but it's pretty small so wouldn't be good for a Provoke addition. It's also quite powerful as is and an expansion of it's range significantly would be too much

Stone - Here's what you're referring to. Fault is knockup-disorient/0 dmg ae

Mace - See Axe. They have the same powerset basically but get disorient instead of KD/KB

So, unfortunately, only Stone and SS are likely candidates for this type of power change. I think it's probably much more balanced to just slip in Provoke in place of Taunt.

That does beg the question though of what to do with Taunt. Some people like it.

I guess you could put it in the Presence pool, but that pool is so weak already that removing Provoke will pretty much doom it to "never used" status. It already has Challenge which is watered down Taunt as is. Sure, a handful would take Taunt, but if people are concerned about blowing a pool on Provoke, imagine how irritated (to the point of not bothering) they'll be when Taunt is the only thing in there worth having.

If I had to guess, I'd expect to see Provoke replace Taunt in the tanker secondaries, while the Presence pool remained the same (with both provoke and challenge).

That way, Tankers get the not insignificant advantage of not having to take a power pool for provoke, but the Presence pool remains at least a viable option. I'm not saying Scrappers should have access to Provoke, something some tankers take issue with, but I don't see how you can remove the ability from the pool without just deleting the entire pool itself due to uselessness.

Stateswoman, I understand and agree to an extent.

Kruunch had stated however, when this thing started rolling, that the Provoke changes were intended to be a change across all the secondaries. This came after the questions from numerous tankers of other secondaries wondering where they would be left in the wake of the SS changes.

Increasing damage or recycles or even effects of the SS powers is, by and large, something that may not, or doesn't necessarily *have to* impact the other secondaries except as a way to balance their relative effectiveness within the AT.

Basically making Provoke, one of the absolute cornerstones of the entire AT, a power that only the other secondaries have to take, while SS takes a superior version of provoke + knockdown (+ KB capability perhaps and even suggestions of damage), seems to me to be needlessly divisive.

In my opinion, the SS players would do well to get as many tankers under their tent as possible. Devs are probably less likely to make changes that will cause envy within an AT.

I know SS is hurting, and hurting bad, but I think it would be wise to keep the focus narrow and zero in on must-haves. Kruunch has been really good about not over-reaching so far and I thought I would just offer a bit of feedback along these lines.

By the way, count me in. My first hero was a SS tanker and I still have a fondness for him.

I guess I'm confused. Will SS tankers be using Handclap (revised to be superior to Provoke) while other tanker secondaries will just have Provoke inserted to replace taunt? Will SS tankers get the super-handclap-provoke and also get Provoke replacing Taunt?

Making the single-best tanker CC be a SS only power would appear destined to leave the other secondaries saying "well, we get provoke, but I wish we had Aggroclap"