[ QUOTE ]
Wait, wait, disorients STACK? I've never been stunned while using Unyeilding Stance.
[/ QUOTE ]
As Volante said but I'll confirm that you can be stunned out of US (rarely) and Rage's disorient allows you to be stunned out of US easily. Easily enough that doing Freaks with Rage is a death sentence. Same goes for other heavy stun mobs.
Liquid: Yeah I would love shorter animation times (and a cooler look) on Taunt. Dunno what the devs were thinking when they made that and then Provoke. /boggle
[ QUOTE ]
Does Knockdown not knockback
[/ QUOTE ]
I have handclap on my long time retired tanker, and it does knockback, not knockdown.
I must say i DO like the power as it is, altough i'd welcome even 1 point of damage at lvl 50 (just for kicks) and a big endurance reduce.
Right now i use this power not while solo, i realize it would not be a solo power the time i took it. I knew (and it has worked for me) to get hordes off my team mates if provoke fails or if it still is not ready to reuse. With invinsibility i get enough accuracy bonus that i rarely miss any of the enemies arround me in such a situation and most of them end up disoriented for a long time.
I been planing to slot it for disorient duration if it do accepts that type of enhancements.
As for taunt duration y ou are right, the first time i took provke was after taking taunt on my first character. First i did it so i would use provoke on aweful situations (that was the idea) but the provoke animation was so slow on taunt that i rarely managed to get the agro to me the second i needed too. Heck it was long enough for me to loose the defender i was trying to taunt off at the hands of some hellion!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does Knockdown not knockback
[/ QUOTE ]
I have handclap on my long time retired tanker, and it does knockback, not knockdown.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was talking about why Mob Handclap works. Mob Handclap seems to do Knockdown while Hero Handclap does Knockback.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I'd only like to add three comments to what you've already said...
<ul type="square">[*]Regarding Knockback:[/list][ QUOTE ]
4) KB changes. While currently in the works and in line with what has already been proposed by Geko, we would like to see the Knockdown rule apply across the board for all SS powers (all Tanker secondaries really) that currently have Knockback in them (including Hurl and Handclap) with the ability to add Knockback enhancements in them as the player chooses.
[/ QUOTE ]
And, so that Knockback enhancements don't 'waste' a slot, I'd like to see Knockback enhancements add extra damage based on distance (when Knockback occurs).
<ul type="square">[*](2) Regarding Provoke/Taunt:[/list][ QUOTE ]
8) Replace Taunt with Provoke (across all Tanker secondaries) in effect for Tanker secondary version of Taunt. Most Tankers feel they shouldn't have to give up a power pool set for this one power that is essentially, a Tanker-only power to begin with. Alternative suggestion is to add to base taunt duration and allow Taunt Duration enhancements to be placed in all AOE non-damaging Tanker secondary powers (1 per secondary) as per suggestion #6 above.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to see the AoE-Taunt that's in the Tanker set be a PBAoE, instead of a targeted-AoE like Provoke. Taunt (single-target) and Provoke (targeted-AoE) would still be available in that power pool, for those who specifically wanted them.
<ul type="square">[*](3)Regarding group roles:[/list]I still thing something needs to be done to further define an active role for Tankers in groups (ie. not just "taking damage"). Tanker's should get an AoE-Taunt as part of their power-sets, but it shouldn't be their only purpose in a group.
Some/all of the needed changes would probably need to take place in the Primary power-sets (ie. shielding allies, etc), so really don't involve Super Strength directly, but I did want to at least mention it, lest they fix Super Strength, but still leave us with our main team contribution being to stand around auto-provoking.
Just my opinion.
Thanks for the thread!
Blurg
(Science Tanker)
[i]"City of Heroes is at its best as a Superhero game that's implemented as an MMO, rather than as an MMO that just happens to be about Superheroes..."[/i]
Hey Blurg ... yeah I agree on both of your points. I'd like to see those done.
Statesman has repeatedly acknowledged the lack of role that Tankers have post 30th, so I think that will be addressed. It just won't be a light switch type of fix. You'll see some of that happen in this patch and more and more down the road.
/sign
*sigh* i've almost quit playing my inv/ss tanker... my favorite character but ah well. to frustrating!
I hear your pain man.
I put up a post in the Training Room forum highlighting this thread. The idea is to keep these issues in front of the dev's eyes. I've also outlined the differences between the SS line and other Tanker secondaries.
Go there and post your own thoughts (and keep that thread bumped and in front of the devs):
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#1292611
I am definetly for the changes you mentioned. I have played every type of tank and INV/SS is my favorite build (weakest most frustrating) but favorite. I would say it make you fell like a real superhero except , how can I my 86 year old grandmother can hit harder than my ss tank. (We should just give all the citizens of paragon INV and they could do a better job of protecting the streets. than a ss tanker) Especially would love to see the animation change for hurl. I don't want people thinking I am a outcast brick. 
my biggest issue with SS is that it shouldn't be so weak, Damage wise, when compared to other Tank secondaries. hell, it should be the best!
stop screwing with all these "additional effects" and let Super-Strength do what it's supposed to do, make you super strong! all Damage catagories should be raised by one level, adjusting end cost and recharge time appropriately.
SS should also have a Damage catagory that is unique to it, for the final power.
Hurl should animate similar to Propel.
that is all.
-f
I just recently start a INV/SS build. I enjoy the char but I hear a lot of people saying SS is flawed. Super Strength sounds nice but no damage to back it up.
All that muscle, Big Deal... A martial arts scrapper with smaller muscles can hit for more damage....
Lucky I created 5 AT and play the 1 that is least gimped. Guess I will shelf my Tanker until DEV fixes Super Strength.
In the comic, Tankers like Colossus can take the huge hits and can do a lot of damage but is slower...
...Compared to a scrapper like Wolverine who cannot take the huge hits and cannot do as much damage but is faster and can do like 2-3 hits before Colossus finished 1 hit.
That is the way COH should be. Drop Hasten and use it to replace Super Reflex/ELUDE instead.
/signed
/signed
/agreed
/signed
Krunch is my hero
-----------------------------------------------
Justice Goliath Invul/SS Tank Justice Server
<Edited with update damage number from test server>
Hello all,
I have some concern in regard to the proposed changes. I understand that we, Super Strength tanker, are not really that good in damage dealing, but this is question that I have...
how many of you actually 6 slot your attacks?
With Jab, Punch, Haymaker and Footstomp 6 sloted. They do the following damage for me against even con (42 Tanker) (rough number from memory)
Without Rage
Jab - 73 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Punch - 107 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Haymaker - 175 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Footstomp - 151 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Knockout Blow - 154 (4 sloted 3 damage & 1 accuracy)
With Rage
Jab - 92.76 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Punch - 136.41 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Haymaker - 194 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Footstomp - 223.12 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Knockout Blow - 212 (4 sloted 3 damage & 1 accuracy)
I may not able to kill a group of enemy very fast, normally it take me a jab + punch + haymaker + rage to kill one, but with footstomp come into mix, it really speed up the killing process.
The knockout blow as currently doing about 20-30 damage above haymaker on the test center. It has gone from useless to pretty good for it's timing. The knockdown part make me want to haste and just footstomp all day long while surround by a group of mob.
Granted, I am a late stage tanker who is running Unstoppable and Rage permanently on. And all those proposed change, will just make me even better. I am just suggest caution on the side. If we get too much love, we may break balance as well.
Nerfetiti level 43 Magical Tanker Pinnacle.
[ QUOTE ]
...Compared to a scrapper like Wolverine who cannot take the huge hits and cannot do as much damage but is faster and can do like 2-3 hits before Colossus finished 1 hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like the thought of this but I have a feeling that it would cause tremendous waves.
For instance say a claws scrapper first power hit for 5 points of base damage every 8 seconds(we are talking in the tutorial here) then a ss tanker first power hits for 10 or 12 base damage every 16 secs.
Then you could increase the effectiveness of both,for instance the scrapper gets + 5% speed boost every level and 2% power then reverse this for the tanker the real problem comes in with accuracy.
If the scrapper misses oh well he gets to try again and again and again if the tanker misses oh crap. Another inherent problem I could see being raised is that scrappers are supposed to do the most damage of the melee AT's. Even with the ability to hit more and stack the damage it would still have the fell of being the weaker AT, then you have to factor in the animation times and the fact that your scrapper would effectivelly become a quisinart.
This could be done don't get me wrong it would have to be handled with care is all. Plus I don't think the devs would go for it but alas to dream.
I have had a though on this as well.
My Idea goes a little something like this:
A tankers damage goes up for every agro he keeps on himself.(this refering to even level baddies) For a boss 2 points for a Lt. 1 point and for a minion well lets just say one Lt. is worth 3 or 4 minions so for every 3-4 minions you have agroed on yourself 1 point. This way being a "Meatsheild" has a benifit for you and your team.
There would have to be a cap on this kind of gain of course and several details would have to be worked out but I think this could work.
It would give a tanker a feeling of usefulness not only are you diverting the damage from your friends but it is makking you stronger "adrenaline rush" if you will.
I am sure this could work for a solo tank as well, to really gain any benifit you would have to take on large mobs by your self which a tank should be able to do better than anyone..... They are a tank after all.
[ QUOTE ]
<Edited with update damage number from test server>
Hello all,
I have some concern in regard to the proposed changes. I understand that we, Super Strength tanker, are not really that good in damage dealing, but this is question that I have...
how many of you actually 6 slot your attacks?
With Jab, Punch, Haymaker and Footstomp 6 sloted. They do the following damage for me against even con (42 Tanker) (rough number from memory)
Without Rage
Jab - 73 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Punch - 107 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Haymaker - 175 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Footstomp - 151 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Knockout Blow - 154 (4 sloted 3 damage & 1 accuracy)
With Rage
Jab - 92.76 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Punch - 136.41 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Haymaker - 194 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Footstomp - 223.12 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Knockout Blow - 212 (4 sloted 3 damage & 1 accuracy)
I may not able to kill a group of enemy very fast, normally it take me a jab + punch + haymaker + rage to kill one, but with footstomp come into mix, it really speed up the killing process.
The knockout blow as currently doing about 20-30 damage above haymaker on the test center. It has gone from useless to pretty good for it's timing. The knockdown part make me want to haste and just footstomp all day long while surround by a group of mob.
Granted, I am a late stage tanker who is running Unstoppable and Rage permanently on. And all those proposed change, will just make me even better. I am just suggest caution on the side. If we get too much love, we may break balance as well.
Nerfetiti level 43 Magical Tanker Pinnacle.
[/ QUOTE ]
A similarly specced Energy/Stone/Axe/Fire Tanker does much more damage (Fire being AOE).
Mace has 2 AOEs which can be achieved much earlier then SS's single AOE currently (and they are complaining now that they aren't getting enough love) which increases their DPS dramatically in anything but one on one encounters.
Ice Tankers (all 5 of them) are the only ones with more gimpy damage then S (they will be my next crusade I think).
While the damage looks impressive on its own, compared to other ATs (all of them and almost every build combo therein) at the same level, it's really not.
This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage.
My Knockout Blow is doing ~116pts (at level 32, vs level 32 5th Column minions in FF) on Test right now with 3 Damage SO's. This is about 2x what's on the Live servers.
To me, this is where it should be with only a single SO (if any at all). The entire SS line should be brought up to about the 2-3 SO level to bring us more in line with other classes and make us viable for groups at the upper levels.
[ QUOTE ]
A similarly specced Energy/Stone/Axe/Fire Tanker does much more damage (Fire being AOE).
This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you get some number some where to compare the damage?
I think a straight number comparison for those number are not exactly fair either. Need to look at secondary effect as well.
As my experience goes, I am a level 43 tanker on Pinnacle and test server. :-) So I experienced the same change as you do.
The biggest difference between our build is a single power. Haste (and UYS but that's a philosophy thing).
"This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage."
Don't take this wrong, but anyone who wants to run this kind of character really has to sit back and be silent about what powers should and shouldn't be able to do. You are a min-maxer who wants to squeeze every ounce of effectiveness out of every power. That is not what the bulk of us want.
I don't want Super Strength adjusted so that you can make another perverse Tanker-Scrapper combo. Its the min-maxers who calculated the loss in DPS due to knockback that almost cost Super Strength its defining cool feature: Knockback.
You don't have a concept of what 'normalized' characters are doing with these power sets. You don't appreciate that Super Strength is perfectly fine in a normalized environment. You want it skewable.
can't comment much on this since my tanker is only up to 11, but i do feel that knockback/knockdown should be a toggle for the players to make the choice. losing an enh slot can hurt.
[ QUOTE ]
"This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage."
Don't take this wrong, but anyone who wants to run this kind of character really has to sit back and be silent about what powers should and shouldn't be able to do. You are a min-maxer who wants to squeeze every ounce of effectiveness out of every power. That is not what the bulk of us want.
I don't want Super Strength adjusted so that you can make another perverse Tanker-Scrapper combo. Its the min-maxers who calculated the loss in DPS due to knockback that almost cost Super Strength its defining cool feature: Knockback.
You don't have a concept of what 'normalized' characters are doing with these power sets. You don't appreciate that Super Strength is perfectly fine in a normalized environment. You want it skewable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how I would take that right.
But in any event, min/max builds should never have *that* great a diversity within an MMOG. Since this game has no loot nor lateral content, people tend to concentrate on their character development (hence promoting the min/max nonsense).
The sad fact is that this game doesn't suffer concept characters well, because it IS a video game and you will always have min/maxxers, and min/maxxers blow through this game far too easily. If the disparity weren't so great, concept characters would be a ton more tolerable because they would still work well. Currently they do not.
Having said all that, you apparently didn't read my original post. Game balance to me is of far more concern then min/maxxing builds. That's what this whole thread is about.
QingTin: Get all the numbers you want here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...t=all&vc=1
[ QUOTE ]
"This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage."
Don't take this wrong, but anyone who wants to run this kind of character really has to sit back and be silent about what powers should and shouldn't be able to do. You are a min-maxer who wants to squeeze every ounce of effectiveness out of every power. That is not what the bulk of us want.
I don't want Super Strength adjusted so that you can make another perverse Tanker-Scrapper combo. Its the min-maxers who calculated the loss in DPS due to knockback that almost cost Super Strength its defining cool feature: Knockback.
You don't have a concept of what 'normalized' characters are doing with these power sets. You don't appreciate that Super Strength is perfectly fine in a normalized environment. You want it skewable.
[/ QUOTE ]
The bulk actually seems to be supportive of many of these changes. I can see where you're coming from, but I'd say its a solid grasp of how these powers do work in the 'normalized' environment that made us come up with these ideas in the first place. We've seen normal, and we're not particulary happy with it.
Think of it this way, if Super Strength gets some improvements, people won't have to min/max as much to get the hero they want. As it stands, making a soloable or offensively effective SS tanker takes an inordinate amount of work, and even then we're still lagging behind.
"As it stands, making a soloable or offensively effective SS tanker takes an inordinate amount of work, and even then we're still lagging behind."
There's where the difference really kicks in, in differences between understandings of soloable or offensively effective.
I can solo 15 orange baddies, but it takes a good while. I find that normal. Offensively effective? I'm not as effective offensively as a scrapper or Blaster, but I stand toe to toe offensively with defenders and controllers. That seems reasonable to me.
If I was to surround myself with Alpha-strike min-maxers and tooled up BS/Regen Scrappers, I'd probably feel differently. My friends and I don't go hunting purples casually. We don't pull an entire mission for a nova-strike. We play the normalized game and SS seems perfectly fine there. SS needs to be the weakest of the Tanker secondaries BECAUSE it is the most intuitive and popular choice.
I suppose I am naive; Living in an ivory tower. What I consider to be the 'normal' game is not the reality of it.
The bulk of the players are likely making the uber builds and thereby shaming the SSers. Ah well. If anything, right now the game is too easy (36).
[ QUOTE ]
A note i have not seen mentioned (or missed badly) in this thread is that the handclap sugestion of duration does not seems to note that this power consumes a lot of endurance. Even sloted, if you used it every 10 seconds for a fight you would run out of end very fast. Not sure how it is on test now, though.
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Definately. For Handclap to be a Provoke replacement (which I think it should) it needs to be low end and fast recharge.
The problem with Handclap as it stands is that by the time you can select it you don't need or want a "get away from me" power. However Handclap works great for Ancestrial Spirits and Tank Smashers. Why is that?
<ul type="square">[*]Does Knockdown not knockback[*]Heroes often have toggles[*]Heroes can be hit while disorientated (unlike villains)[/list]
So IMO it doesn't work as it stands but I do like the concept. So if you turn it into a Provoke replacement I will get the power next even level
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04