I am taking that comment in context with his one previously about looking at a way to get tankers deal more damage as they take more/get hit more/whatever. That sounds extremely close to the Hulk to me, and I don't like it. I could be wrong, which is the only reason I didn't cancel immediately, I want to see what else he has to say, as long as it is said soon. But its another vague promise with no timeline, no detail and little else. If its a tanker wide change it does nothing the address the hopeless internal imbalance, if its an SS only change it is unacceptably concept restricting.
Krunch, Doc_S, sturm, Volante and all the others I have thoroughly enjoyed talking with these last few months - been a pleasure meeting you all. I'll be watching you guys for the next week or so though, so be good 
Edit: How could I forget Foo!! Take it easy mate (and I did complain about the name for Rage back in beta, heh)
Out.
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Actually I feel like Krunch has been instead pushing to change Tankers to work within a broken concept, instead of working to fix the broken concept (if one even exists) so Tankers work correctly again in the end-game. Theres a difference.
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You might feel that way (and I can't help how you feel) but that is incorrect. The changes I proposed originally and have been since crafted and added to and subtracted from from more then 4 dozen people (by my last count). This has all been done within the framework of staying within the Tanker AT with the idea of bringing up SS Tankers up to the same realm as the other Tanker secondaries (Ice aside for a moment).
I specifically said that these changes do not reflect the much broader issues of Tankers losing their primary role in groups post 30th.
I hate playing the "level" card, but you really need to get to a higher level to know what most of us are referring to. I've got no clue what level you are but I'd be willing to bet it's somewhere in the 20s which is pretty much the ideal level range (18-31) for a Tanker in this game. Either that or you just solo 100% of the time oblivious to everyone and everything else around you (I have a friend who does this and he loves his Inv/SS Tanker).
I don't mind you disagreeing with me at all. Just don't assign incorrect motives to the time I've invested in this particular issue.
Thanks.
Warpsite: Sigh. I feel your pain man and you will be missed bro.
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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This is great and right on the money! 
Statesman,
If you're still skimming, could you please please please with sugar and a cherry on top elaborate a little on some of the ideas you may be considering for how to improve Tankers across the board?
Just say before hand that nothing is set in stone and that you're not even sure at this point if all of your ideas are possible to implement at this point.
If people want to flame after that then they're just being contrary.
Just please share some of your ideas with us so we can have a little bit of insight into the big picture you're trying to paint and maybe offer a little constructive feedback before a lot of development goes on.
I think the vast majority of us understand that some things just won't be possible to implement, and that some things won't happen quickly and will require a lot of work, and that you really do have our collective best interests at heart.
Please share a bit with us if you can, even if it is just a lot of brainstorming right now. I'm not suggesting game design by commitee even in the slightest, I'm just suggesting a productive and constructive dialogue about the future of tanking in this game. We all know that in the end you have the final word and what you decide is for the best will be implemented.
Thanks so much for your time!
When you describe super-strength as Hulk-ish, I picture massive damage, slow hitting attacks. I honestly hope this isnt the direction super-strength is going. Im comfortable with the speed of most of the super-strength attacks, and slowing them down simply to make them appear more damaging and flashy while maintaining the same DPS is not how I want my character to be.
The majority of valid complaints I personally see people making are:
-Tankers cant compete in the high-end game (because of the frequency of powers like mez) without having specific powers (like Unyielding Stance) that clash with other powers in the set because of its side effects (rooting). If thats true, there are multiple problems here. First, the frequency of which powers that require specific counters are showing up on villains in the high level game. Second, the concept of rooting in Unyielding Stance. I completely skipped that power because as soon as I understood you couldnt move while using it, I thought Wow, that is so not how I play this game. Pass.. I can understand the concept of digging in to gain the benefits that Unyielding Stance allows, but would much rather see an Unyielding Stance that slows the movement of the players and slows the refresh rate of their offensive powers while its active to represent the extra focus needed to reap the benefits of this power. That, to me, is much more acceptable than forcing my character to stand in one spot.
-Tankers cant compete in the high-end game because it has turned into an AOE fest where players prefer the practice of rounding up hundreds of villains at a time and killing them with area-effect attacks to make what they deem acceptable XP over time. There are so many things wrong about this, and none of them have anything to do with Tankers being too inadequate to do fulfill their role.
-Tanker damage is on the low side. Everyone will always feel their damage is on the low side, but it really comes down to where you meant for it to be. I know the damage output of Tankers is on par with the damage output of Defenders. If thats where its supposed to be, you succeeded. If Tankers are supposed to be more damaging than that, then the attacks need beefing up (and not at the cost of speed). If Tankers are supposed to be less damaging than that, I would be pretty disappointed.
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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YAY!!! By the sound of it I'll soon be able to punch the bejeezus out of stuff and still play my tankers. That's really ideal. Can't wait to test out your ideas. I'll be first on line on the test servers!
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently SS is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.
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I need to fix that....
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently Ice Melee is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.
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There we go 
SS may be gimped compared to other attack powers, but it's certainly not the gimpest. SS is simply being sensationalized because it's the most popular (everyone and their brother wants to be their own Superman). If Ice Melee or any of the other secondaries was as popular as SS, then we'd have the same topic too.
Hmm... some of us still hoping to see more damage on our Tanks... *crosses oneself.* I don't know; seeing either endurance costs going down some more, or maybe endurance recovery going up when not fighting? Not sure; but I am loath to all the downtime in between battles right now.
I still wish SS would lose it's AoEs and get a big damage boost... maybe slow the casting times to compensate... agh *throws hands in the air* I tell you what, I can appreciate the Dev's dilemma. Statesman has anything but an easy matter to solve here.
Certainly, nobody seems to have much of - pardon the pun - an axe to grind with the Axe secondary, so that may well be a good direction to go in.
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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YAY!!! By the sound of it I'll soon be able to punch the bejeezus out of stuff and still play my tankers. That's really ideal. Can't wait to test out your ideas. I'll be first on line on the test servers!
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I can't wait to find out what his ideas are
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But its another vague promise with no timeline, no detail and little else. If its a tanker wide change it does nothing the address the hopeless internal imbalance, if its an SS only change it is unacceptably concept restricting.
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"vague promise..."
I think he's being as specific as he can be before all the details are ironed out. I for one have been pretty impressed with the amount of follow-through on promises here. If you really want to see an example of vague promises with little detail and no timeline, go check out SWG's developer/spokesperson Thunderheart. When there is a timeline given it is invariably broken there.
"tankerwide change..."
So what if it makes all Tanks more powerful at the same time? More powerful is more powerful even if the fire/* or inv/* tanks can still make me look like crap, I'll be happier personally and I'm playing one of the gimpiest tank combos if not THE gimpiest. I thought the bigger problem was useless post 30 anyway? Are not any positive changes good?
"...SS only change it is unacceptably concept restricting. "
I find this only to make sense if you're referring to the "more damage=hit harder" idea. Some non-Hulk concepts:
Superman, angered at the death of Krypton, his family and his life, really knocks the crap out of some bad dude who was taunting him with old family holos whilst beating on him...
Wonder Man, angered because he has a fatal illness, draws on this anger and really knocks the crap out of some bad dude who was threatening the children's hospital full of terminally ill kids whilst beating on him.
If it's not the taking damage=hit harder idea you were talking about there, then I find that comment confusing.
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently SS is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.
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I need to fix that....
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently Ice Melee is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.
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There we go
SS may be gimped compared to other attack powers, but it's certainly not the gimpest. SS is simply being sensationalized because it's the most popular (everyone and their brother wants to be their own Superman). If Ice Melee or any of the other secondaries was as popular as SS, then we'd have the same topic too.
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NO WE'RE MORE GIMPIER THEN YOU GODDA.....
Oh wait you're the one Ice Tanker playing this game.
My bad. You're gimper.
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I hate playing the "level" card, but you really need to get to a higher level to know what most of us are referring to. I've got no clue what level you are but I'd be willing to bet it's somewhere in the 20s which is pretty much the ideal level range (18-31) for a Tanker in this game. Either that or you just solo 100% of the time oblivious to everyone and everything else around you (I have a friend who does this and he loves his Inv/SS Tanker).
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Krunch, 39 is the highest SS/Inv Tanker Ive had (and life up to that point seemed fine), although now Im playing a lowerlevel tanker on a different server where some friends of mine are. While I have solo'd at times, most of my adventuring is done in smaller groups because I feel the game lends itself best in that format, with larger groups (which I do now and then as well) being chaotic and for the most part un-fun (but that's another debate).
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently SS is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.
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I need to fix that....
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently Ice Melee is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.
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There we go
SS may be gimped compared to other attack powers, but it's certainly not the gimpest. SS is simply being sensationalized because it's the most popular (everyone and their brother wants to be their own Superman). If Ice Melee or any of the other secondaries was as popular as SS, then we'd have the same topic too.
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NO WE'RE MORE GIMPIER THEN YOU GODDA.....
Oh wait you're the one Ice Tanker playing this game.
My bad. You're gimper.
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Dang straight!
Carry on your little SS discussion
Will you quit quitting this discussion now?!
How'sabout waiting for the change being announced, and then deciding what to do? After all the posting you've done here it's kind of a waste to lose you in this...
I'm all for a little Hulkishness, just as long as I don't have to morph into a huge green half-naked man.
Holly jolly molly christmas cringle pringles Batman! It's Statesman once again proving he kicks butt.(as does Positron and the other devs).
Stay tuned to the next post by Statesman!
Quick question for the number-Krunchers...
Aren't the Tanker DPS'es, and especially Super Strength, supposed to be 75% of what Scrappers dish out?
If so, is that true in practice? On paper?
What about damage per minute?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Quick question for the number-Krunchers...
Aren't the Tanker DPS'es, and especially Super Strength, supposed to be 75% of what Scrappers dish out?
If so, is that true in practice? On paper?
What about damage per minute?
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All you have to know right now is that it sucks and will be improved. Don't worry so much about the numbers.(personally I just like to sit back and enjoy the game I don't pay attention to numbers too much)
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NO WE'RE MORE GIMPIER THEN YOU GODDA.....
Oh wait you're the one Ice Tanker playing this game.
My bad. You're gimper.
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Secondary Ice or Primary Ice?
Oft times I have been slowly punching/icicling enemies to death with my Ice/SS whilst thinking I should have gone Ice/Ice so I could be taking on more of them while they slip on ice patch and I frost breath more than one at a time to death with a cone AoE. Course I don't have foot stomp yet so bleh.
I would challenge you to a paraplegic duel to prove who is teh g;mpz0r but I have no hand with which to throw down the gauntlet I can't wear anyway. 
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Quick question for the number-Krunchers...
Aren't the Tanker DPS'es, and especially Super Strength, supposed to be 75% of what Scrappers dish out?
If so, is that true in practice? On paper?
What about damage per minute?
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Depends the build. Fire/Fire Tankers can do 75% DPS of most Scrapper builds. They will also kill alot more at once then most Scrapper builds (barring Spines) because of the combined AOEs of that build.
Once Issue #2 comes out Axe will be right up there (possibly even 100%+ of some Scrapper builds actually).
High level Energy might be as well. Nowhere near it in the early game, but I hear their later offensive powers are truly amazing.
Stone/Mace/SS/Ice/Fire (secondaries) don't come close to matching 75% of a Scrapper's DPS (any Scrapper). More like 40% in practical terms.
Except for maybe the Fire secondary, damage per minute is meaningless since most fights don't last a minute. However if you were going damage per minute, then Scrappers far exceed Tankers (190%?) as Tanker endurance issues start to come into play (somewhat relieved by Issue #2) and Scrappers generally attack much faster.
Flip_X: I was talking about Ice secondary. Ice primary is only gimpy if you leave Outbreak
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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The good news is that he/they are finally addressing the base issue I've always had, CoH Tanks aren't anywhere close to comic book like. The bad news, and why I am still concerned, is that it has taken 4-5 months from release, plus several months of beta to recoginze this fact.
I am not sure what is possible at this point. Too big of a change, and they could do some serious damage to their player base. However, in my opinion, the entire tanker secondary lines should be scrapped and started over. And that is a huge change, but probably the only one that will produce my desired result.
This dev team is the best though. The only other MMORPG I've been involved with was SWG, and these guys are infinatly better than they are, at least in acknowlaging problems, and puting quality first ahead of quantity.
Maybe they will have to go as far as to create a 6th general AT (the Brick). They could be very similar to Scrappers, and have offensive primaries, but concentrate on extreme damage single targets, with nice defense. That gives a lot more options to existing players who like their meatshield, while allowing others to play what they really wanted, a comic book tough guy.
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently SS is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.
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I deffinitly agree, doing some overall Tanker improvement wont change that SS (and Ice melee) is seriously lacking compared to the other Tanker Secondaries. Any fix SS by a general buff to Tankers would also overpower the better sets like Fiery Melee, Energy Melee and Battleaxe. Internal balancing and external balancing is two totaly diffrent things and should not be mixed up.
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Krunch, 39 is the highest SS/Inv Tanker Ive had (and life up to that point seemed fine), although now Im playing a lowerlevel tanker on a different server where some friends of mine are. While I have solo'd at times, most of my adventuring is done in smaller groups because I feel the game lends itself best in that format, with larger groups (which I do now and then as well) being chaotic and for the most part un-fun (but that's another debate).
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Absolutely true. I find groups <5 to be the best. Especially if you have one of each archetype, so that you can see what's what. 'course, my friends aren't min/max types, so it doesn't really matter. My girlfriend and I do a lot of duoing as Inv/SS and Fire/Fire tanks. I pull, she vaporises.
Ain't love grand?
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I hate playing the "level" card, but you really need to get to a higher level to know what most of us are referring to. I've got no clue what level you are but I'd be willing to bet it's somewhere in the 20s which is pretty much the ideal level range (18-31) for a Tanker in this game. Either that or you just solo 100% of the time oblivious to everyone and everything else around you (I have a friend who does this and he loves his Inv/SS Tanker).
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Krunch, 39 is the highest SS/Inv Tanker Ive had (and life up to that point seemed fine), although now Im playing a lowerlevel tanker on a different server where some friends of mine are. While I have solo'd at times, most of my adventuring is done in smaller groups because I feel the game lends itself best in that format, with larger groups (which I do now and then as well) being chaotic and for the most part un-fun (but that's another debate).
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How on earth did you get up to L39 and not run into multiple stun issues without either US or Unstoppable?
Do you just enjoy sleeping/drunken walking alot?
Or did you solely kill 5th Column (sans Vamps) in all that time?
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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.
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/sigh.
Well guys, consider this news the nail in the coffin. Been great talking with many of you, and I wish you all the very best.
5 weeks, lord knows how many posts and suggestions, and he thinks we all want to be the Hulk.... I give up.
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Easy, brother. I know you have problems with the whole "Hulk" concept (as evidenced by your dislike of the "madder we get, harder we hit" idea), but don't fret.
We all DO want to be the Hulk in the following ways:
-to dish out and take some damage
-a reason to be respected (or feared) in combat
-to be viable as an archetype both grouped and solo (especially post-30)
I mean, honestly, we have a power called "Rage" already. That's pretty Hulk, but I don't see people complaining about the name, but rather the effect.
Have heart. We NEED people that don't want to be shoehorned to comment on changes. Look how much Genesis' commentary has sparked discussion here. (Thanks, Genesis.)
(Intelligent) Dissenting voices are necessary to operate as checks and balances in these discussions.
*edit* Though maybe you do need a break. At least to get some distance?
Genesis: Okay, now I hear ya. What we really have here is a mindset difference. You are of the slow and steady wins the race view, while I am more of the why should I have to go this slow when others of the same class can go faster?. I cant argue with your mindset, nor do I want to. Im of that mindset, too, but, to me, the inherent imbalance between the secondaries is just too staggering for me to accept.
Statesman's comment gives me hope that there'll be something coming for super strength (and tanks) in the future. I hope you'll stick around to hash those changes out when they come.
Krunch: I wonder as well if the "scrapper" comment was a typo. Perhaps our discussions have had more effect than we think and they're considering making bigger changes to tanks than expected?