[ QUOTE ]
But If someone else alters the texture so that only he can see it, first off no one else can see it(hence the client side), and secondly it is not crypics problem anymore. Also, If I draw a superman logo or a batman logo and put it on my computer or hang it on my refrigerator, DC/marvel or whoever cant do anything about it. I dont believe this decision is for such instances as you listed. why it was brought up and stated? Im not sure.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's different for Cryptic. They can be held liable for copyright violations when people do this, particularly when it's done on their sanctioned forums under their noses in a free-for-all.
Whether it would hold up in court is another story, but for any company, the risk is not worth it. And technically you're half right. If you draw a batman logo and hang it on your fridge, it's still copyright infringement, but you're protected so long as you don't claim it as your own or try selling it.
Cryptic doesn't have that leniency since they package and sell their game. If it were found to include copyrighted elements, their protections fall into that grey area, and they would still likely be found liable as they claim ownership of every account and the characters created therein.
Basically, it's not your account. You just rent it from Cryptic. 
As they are the rightful owners, characters created in copyrighted likenesses become a problem for them. While client-side mods are definitely a grey-area, the ToS must be upheld in instances of question to cover themselves. I don't blame them. That's just the way the world runs.
*edit - added quote for context*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe if you dont like a part of the game, simply petition for a change. I would think that if enough people want better maps, cryptic will put them in eventually. In the mean time simply learn your zones. it isnt that hard.
Modifying the client should be against the TOS, and should be wiped here on these boards.
[/ QUOTE ]
They don't want good maps .. excessive travel time is one of the main timesink devices used in this game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know this is off topic, but I want to laugh at this guy's reponse. Travel is the main timesink? That's a joke, right? I can get anywhere within seconds -- not minutes like DAoC, AO, or EQ. If you want a time sink, try leveling after 40. :P
As for this whole nonmodding issue.. I'm rather peeved. I honestly don't see where it says it's against the rules to modify your own client. Though, in the past, I've known this to eventually lead to cheating. I doubt it will stop anyone from modding, however.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe if you dont like a part of the game, simply petition for a change. I would think that if enough people want better maps, cryptic will put them in eventually. In the mean time simply learn your zones. it isnt that hard.
Modifying the client should be against the TOS, and should be wiped here on these boards.
[/ QUOTE ]
They don't want good maps .. excessive travel time is one of the main timesink devices used in this game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll assume this is your first MMORPG and let that slide. 
But take my word for it, dont play SWG or Everquest or WoW if you think CoH has bad travel time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your assumption, like most assumptions is wrong. I did not say they were bad ... I said they are excessive, as per design. There are worse games without a doubt.
People, can't you read between the lines?
Prior to this, the Devs have been fairly consistant about not really minding things like the map patch or the looping sound patch. And saying so on the forums and elsewhere.
From a Customer Servivce, Tech Support, and Legal Department view point, THIS WAS A HUGE FRICKIN MISTAKE.
You start saying it's Okay to modify the client, and suddenly you WILL get a major increase in complaint calls and workload to CS because so-and-so broke their game by applying a third party hack. Tech support gets swamped with trying to figure out what is an actual bug and what is the result of a hack, because in general most bug reports aren't all that clear. And god forbid someone makes a porn or worse mod and then can point at the forums to say, "Hey, the devs support this stuff!" - that is a legal nightmare just waiting to happen.
This is why from DAY ONE the company line should have been to not publically voice ANY allowance of third party hacks or mods, no matter HOW benign they are. Even if they privately liked the mods or aren't going to do anything about ones they see, THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE SAID SO IN PUBLIC.
And this? I'm pretty sure this is them realizing all this and pulling back to the sensible position of publically disavowing any player mods. I would not be suprised if nothing at all is done to folks that have "safe" mods to their game.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's different for Cryptic. They can be held liable for copyright violations when people do this, particularly when it's done on their sanctioned forums under their noses in a free-for-all.
Whether it would hold up in court is another story, but for any company, the risk is not worth it. And technically you're half right. If you draw a batman logo and hang it on your fridge, it's still copyright infringement, but you're protected so long as you don't claim it as your own or try selling it.
Cryptic doesn't have that leniency since they package and sell their game. If it were found to include copyrighted elements, their protections fall into that grey area, and they would still likely be found liable as they claim ownership of every account and the characters created therein.
Basically, it's not your account. You just rent it from Cryptic. As they are the rightful owners, characters created in copyrighted likenesses become a problem for them. While client-side mods are definitely a grey-area, the ToS must be upheld in instances of question to cover themselves. I don't blame them. That's just the way the world runs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Amen to that
Well if what it comes down to is using copywrited stuff, they could just ban the act of spreading copywritten stuff. I'd be fine with banning superman textures and such, but banning the xp GUI mod I made or banning the altering of a sword into a golden sword? I dont see that as breaking any legal copywrite rules.
[ QUOTE ]
Well if what it comes down to is using copywrited stuff, they could just ban the act of spreading copywritten stuff. I'd be fine with banning superman textures and such, but banning the xp GUI mod I made or banning the altering of a sword into a golden sword? I dont see that as breaking any legal copywrite rules.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is that it would become very hard to police which mods are being created, and which are legal and which are not, and on and on. The fact that we were posting them on the official boards created a potential legal liability, which resulted in them being deleted. I'm sure that many of the developers would or do support modding, but when legal issues come into play, devs have no choice but to crack down on them.
Well, hopefully we dont need to go underground. theres a solution to every problem, hopefully the devs can find a way to allow modding of the game.
One major thing that kind of relieves some of the pain felt by this swift announcement...
Update 2 is on test, and in it looping sound effects last for all of 2 or so seconds, then fade to silence.
This makes the client-side modding a lot less required, at least to me. Very nice, the only problem is that it scares the crap out of me when I zone cause they kick in for their two seconds then go mute again, but no big deal.
I havn't had a problem with the sounds, but the map patch has greatly increased my quality of life. It would be very sad if that were overwritten. One way or another i'm going to have maps that show where the stores are, because running aaround trying to find them without a map is a simple time burner. I dont pay my money to wonder around the streets looking for stores. And if sounds were irritating to me, and there was a way to get rid of them, I'd use them in a heartbeat. As has been mentioned by several other people, this isn't trying to exploit anything, this is just improving the game. And obviously if it caused an issue I wouldn't hold CoH responcable unless they caused the issue with the patch intentionally.
[ QUOTE ]
Client modifications are against the Coh Terms of Service agreement found here.
I will be removing all posts/threads about client modification as a result.
[/ QUOTE ]
So overriding an in-game sound file with one that is lower volume because the original one gives me headaches due to it's repetitive loud low frequency is against the Terms of Service?
What's next, banning accounts for using custom OGG audio files?!?
I don't like this at all, much less the tone of it.
*sigh* the mentioned client side modifications are not made to abuse game mechanics, they are there so we can actually see our characters
CoH is a great game, and Cryptic Studios is doing a great job at running this game. I can understand it if links to client side modifications won't be allowed on the official forums, but if the client side override gets disabled, that will piss me off.
Frankly, there is no way to prevent people from running things on their pooters, so even if the override was disabled, I am sure there would be a way to re-enable it using a *cough* 3rd party utility.
I hope Cryptic decides to take a look at the mods so everyone can enjoy the pleasures of being able to see their hero or fighting without going deaf inthe process.
(Seriously, what was the art team thinking when they designed powers like dark embrace or integration? Or the targeting drone? I want to bang my head against the monitor after 5 mins with any of those on.)
Intel_Inside and other people have spent their time trying to improve our gameplay experience, they shouldn't be punished for doing that.
Violence has its own economy. Therefore, be thoughtful and precise in your investment.
I love the map patch and the looping sounds mods as much as anyone; heck, I'd probably have given up teaming with Force Field and Empathy defenders if I hadn't been able to quiet down some buff sounds.
What I'm *guessing* is going on here is that modding is suddenly really taking off, especially re-texturing, raising the specter of:
- Copyright infringements, as others have pointed out in this thread. Can we say "Freedom Force"?
- How long before the first EVRY HERO NEKKID MOD? Remember what Richard Garriot(?) said to Statesman, "first thing players do if they can move stuff is spell f**k"
- Conflicting mods/elements of mods could cause players problems; yes, the vast majority of mod users would know what they're doing and take full responsibility, but you know the helpdesk is still gonna get calls...
So while it's Draconian, as a short-term measure, I don't see they've got much choice other than to say "modding - NO!" on the *Official* forums. Maybe it was a bit abrupt, and hopefully a slightly longer/more explanatory announcement will follow, but I'm sure things are plenty hectic with Issue 2 hitting the test server.
Again this is entirely an assumption on my part (and we all know what happens with assumptions), but I'd be fairly surprised if there's a heavy crack down on extrenal mod sites; indeed I suspect tacit approval for things like the map patch and looping sounds update, if nothing else than as a stop-gap measure until they can get a proper fix, as they seem to be doing with Issue 2.
But I'm entirely guessing, presuming and assuming here; I'd really suggest giving it some time to see how things pan out before throwing around accusations of fascism and threats to quit (yeah, I know, that's not how things are done on the boards...)
For what I understand, Cryptic is only officially protecting itself from possible infringement.
It is normal for them to take this route and not allow anymore mod thread on their official forum. To let those thread exist here would be a damocles sword.
As far as I know this happened in other MMORPG too. It was the same story with some third party utilities.
Mod patch will still continue to exist though, but won't be tolerated here. That 's all.
just don't be mad at that or at CuppaJo (a mere messenger). Laws sometimes are not funny, but put yourself in their shoes.
(some other laws take on my nerve too, but that is life)
Though, an other problem would be if they stop the nice feature that allows you to add override files. I guess they do not plan such a mod, like they do not plan to remove the coh_demo feature. THey would only shoot themselves a bullet in the foot
[ QUOTE ]
- How long before the first EVRY HERO NEKKID MOD? Remember what Richard Garriot(?) said to Statesman, "first thing players do if they can move stuff is spell f**k"
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't think that would matter. The potential problems by allowing people to distribute copyrighted images on their forums I can see, but who cares if someone wants to make CoH full of nekkid pr0n stars? The mod only makes it visible on the comp it is on.
I know AC had a few mods like this, one that turned people into aliens, one that gave them real peoples faces, and one that made female avatars naked. No biggie, just don't post SS's.
Its just them taking their official stance for legal reasons. The can't ban for doing it (mostly because they cant tell who is..but I digress..)
All they are doing is deleting post s, not banning accounts.
Like I said before, it has a reason, let it drop especially because sounds are fixed in issue two. Soon enough for you 
* Many continuing sound effects now fade.
That's taken from the patch notes for Issue #2 on test. See, the devs do listen to the players.
Also remember, that even if you change your client with something as harmless as the map mod you guys are talking about, that could be mistaken by other users as giving an unfair advantage to someone else in the game. Players in MMO's really hate that unfortunately.
Emerald Sky
@Emerald Sky
@Lava Dome
@Power Chip
I am going to miss my in game maps... Please for the love of god either do it for us, or allow us to place a flag on the map and label it.
With most mods I can totally understand but maps..... come on robust in game map or allow moding please.
Perhaps my last post here was too long winded. Okay. Here goes.
Cryptic is taking this stance to avoid potential trouble, not because they are being mean.
They just want to get an official stance that they can point at if there is trouble.
That's all. In all probability, unless you are making hacks that interfere with anything server-side, you probably won't get smacked.
You just can't talk about client modifications here.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
[ QUOTE ]
* Many continuing sound effects now fade.
That's taken from the patch notes for Issue #2 on test. See, the devs do listen to the players.
[/ QUOTE ]
They do?
What about the annoying visual power effects?
IMO, These annoying visual effects are a greater problem than the looping sounds. Atleast we could turn down the volume and do away with the sound effects. No such luck with these annoying visual effects.
A large portion of the player base has been begging for a toggle to disable these annoying visual power effects for sometime. To date, nothing has been said, much less done, about it.
Nearly all of my 70+ posts on these boards have been fighting for fixes pertaining to my MA scrapper powers and kick animations, and issues pertaining to these annoying visual power effects. They've addressed our kicking animations, and for that I'm thankful. So now I turn my efforts to these very annoying visual power effects.
The sooner they address this issue, the sooner I spend less time posting on these boards, and more time playing the game.
Isnt that incentive enough
I am sorry my original post was so short. Let me clarify.
From the TOS 3. LICENSE TO USE:
[ QUOTE ]
You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software for profit; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service;
[/ QUOTE ]
The way it was explained to me is that anytime you open the client and modify any file in an unsanctioned way, you violate the TOS. Even if you are just photoshopping a pic or turning off a sound, it is a violation. We cannot and will not condone violating the TOS on our boards.
There are several reasons for this beyond the fact it breaks the TOS. Let's say an evil haxor makes a mod and hides a trojan in it which is installed when you mod the client and it was posted on our boards. What a nightmare that would be.
Also, as mentioned in the thread, this generates support calls. Saying you do not support this is much harder when it is all over your message boards.
Another snag - What if someone offers a mod that allows you to have a superman logo on your chest? Sure, it may only be on your box, but if we allow a link to that then we are kind of giving "consent" and could open a can of worms.
Now, my jurisdiction is the message boards and I will enforce our TOS on these boards. I am not aware of any plans to change the client in such a way as to make it impossible or harder to actually do these modifications.
Due to resource constraints we were unable to take the time needed to enforce these issues, but now that we have the resources we are enforcing them. Like I stated before: Part of my job is to enforce the TOS and the message board rules, not to go out on other boards and enforce the TOS there.
Again, I am sorry for the confusion. I hope this clears things up.
Thank you so much for the clarification, CuppaJo.
With that out of the way ... I personally don't have a problem with them banning discussion of the mods in an official capacity, so long as the functionality to do them remains in place, allowing those of us who know what we are doing to continue to have fun tweaking our characters.
Time for modding discussions to go elsewhere.
Sooooo, basically, we can probably mod our clients to our heart's contents (so long as it's not blatently cheating), we just have to DISCUSS those mods anywhere but on the official boards. Got it (not that I ever have or will mod my own client, I'm just curious about this discussion).
So why don't you say it clearly:
NO MODS ARE ALLOWED ON THESE BOARDS DUE TO LEGAL ISSUES.
Not a big deal, we'll go elsewhere, other forums to get our mods. I'm sure a mod site/community will spring up. Don't go scaring people into thinking that no longer will we be able to silence sounds and garbage.
And in response to Issue 2 fading them. Don't care. STILL GOING TO MUTE THEM. I don't want TD to have a sound. Or super speed, or force field. I can CLEARLY see them in action. Do not need an audio reminder.
This is only my second post to these forums but I read them everyday, work can get boring sometimes. Anyhow, if this move is due to some legal reason so be it. I can understand that. I would like to point out though that having the ability to turn off annoying looping sounds resulting in me creating toons that used those annoying sound causing powers. Had I not been able to change those sounds I would not have created my characters and as such would have become bored with this game. If I am bored with a game I dont play nor pay. I have noticed a lot of soonism in the messages coming out from developers. I only hope that the ability to changes or turn off those sounds is out VERY soon for if it is not, then my friends and I will just have to find a game where we can experience all the content without being driven insane!