A note about client modifications

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I am sorry my original post was so short. Let me clarify.

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I have one question.

Was this change in policy regarding the boards directed by your superiors, or are you doing this unilaterally?

Because if you're doing it unilaterally, I urge you to obtain clarification and direction from those superiors.

If they told you to do it however, by all means have at it!

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The way it was explained to me is that anytime you open the client and modify any file in an unsanctioned way, you violate the TOS. Even if you are just photoshopping a pic or turning off a sound, it is a violation. We cannot and will not condone violating the TOS on our boards.

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Just as an FYI Cuppa Jo, people are generally adding NEW files in a separate folder (i.e., maps and blank sounds). They are not actually modifying, opening, or touching the original files in any way. In other words I can make a map from scratch, in Photoshop, and put it in a folder which the game can see, and I haven't modified ANY game data. None. Zero. Zilch.

Now of course you guys can interpret the TOS however you see fit. Microsoft routinely includes things in their TOS which would never be enforceable in any court of law. However, it's your game and your playing field, so if you say we can't discuss making our own maps here then so be it. I just think it's important to clarify that things you're calling "mods" aren't actually modifying any game data.

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The way it was explained to me is that anytime you open the client and modify any file in an unsanctioned way, you violate the TOS. Even if you are just photoshopping a pic or turning off a sound, it is a violation. We cannot and will not condone violating the TOS on our boards.

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Just as an FYI Cuppa Jo, people are generally adding NEW files in a separate folder (i.e., maps and blank sounds). They are not actually modifying, opening, or touching the original files in any way. In other words I can make a map from scratch, in Photoshop, and put it in a folder which the game can see, and I haven't modified ANY game data. None. Zero. Zilch.

Now of course you guys can interpret the TOS however you see fit. Microsoft routinely includes things in their TOS which would never be enforceable in any court of law. However, it's your game and your playing field, so if you say we can't discuss making our own maps here then so be it. I just think it's important to clarify that things you're calling "mods" aren't actually modifying any game data.

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But you have altered the end product of what the software produces - ie altering the software. You don't have to actually affect the code or resource files to alter software. Anywhoo, you can do it, you're not supposed to, so you can't link to the changes from their web site. Fair enough.

In the process of modding you DO open up and extract textures made by Cryptic and then modify them. that is a break in ToS.

Thank you CuppaJO for your responce I know the tied hands feeling all too well and feel you on this one

Also, it leaves the door open for viruses to be spread. I used to play Jumpgate and there was a problem where a player had created something "for the community" to use to help with the game, and it turned out to be a virus that he was spreading because he was about to get banned or was sick of the game or something like that. The exact details are sketchy merely because it was so long ago, but you get the idea.

Here's another perspective...

Let's say someone created a mapping program that worked great, but behind the scenes was stealing your keystrokes to get your user name and password to the game. Things like that would and may possibly happen if Cryptic allows mods here.

Better take out those binding threads..
I've seen someone make threads about modifying some text files in the coh folder, to make custom commands!

Oh, the horrors of it all!

Better take out the entire faq/guide forum alltogether. You just never know what those crafty users are gonna think of next...
Wouldn't want anyone getting any ideas in their heads, now would we?

There is a map mod on mapquest that is entirely hand-crafted. It didn't take any files from the game at all, and thus does not violate even the most strict interpretation of the TOS. (The TOS specifically refers to modifying any game files.)

However, the point of this thread is *not* that Cryptic doesn't want people using mods. That isn't the point at all. They simply don't want to be seen, in any legally arguable manner, to be supporting them in case someone does Something Bad (tm) that damages someone else's computer.

So I doubt they're going to do anything so offensive to the player base as to prevent people from using them. They're just covering their collective heinies from potential legal troubles down the road.

Well, since it's all wrapped up and done, where exactly are we going to discuss the mods now that we can't do it here? Any good forums? I checked IGN's CoH board and that was too cluttered for my tastes.

Thank you for the clarifications.

Just a few points to posters (all).

It has always been against the tos. Cuppa did mention they were unable to mod the boards like they wanted to because of time constraints.

Editing the legitimit binds does not interfere with the tos in any way as long as you follow the guidelines as posted by Cryptic because this is an intended feature and in fact there are in game docs to help with this..

Cuppa was hired to do this job and was nice enough to give us a heads up that what transpired before she was here to do a job was not going to go on.

Don't hate the messenger. She's got a job to do and folks she answers to not happy with how she does things let her bosses know politely and don't take it personal as I really doubt she does.

I am not saying I agree with every things she does nor that I like or dislike it. I do understand that there is a new sheriff in town and she is trying to let us know she will do what her job description outlines her to do. In the end most of us do the same daily as we do our jobs as we interpret our job descriptions.

Where? I will be, more than likely unless something else about the issue pops up (or I get something from -my- bosses), be making an Tweak forum over at coh.warcry.com. However, it'll be basically like what Cuppa has here: Use at your own risk and don't come running to us or Cryptic if it breaks something.

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Client modifications are against the Coh Terms of Service agreement found here.
I will be removing all posts/threads about client modification as a result.

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A bad decision. Many games support modding to some degree or another. The map patch was a great addition.

I hope Cryptic review this position in the near future.

** Please note that I love modding the game, I've started and added to many posts on the topic. I'm just making an observation here **

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There is a map mod on mapquest that is entirely hand-crafted. It didn't take any files from the game at all, and thus does not violate even the most strict interpretation of the TOS. (The TOS specifically refers to modifying any game files.)

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To this statement, and all others of this type, you missed section c that CuppaJo posted:

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(c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service;

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If you make a map, or texture, or sound or anything else of the like to be used with the game, it is a derivative. Additionally, once the game is loaded into memory, the memory space which the game occupies is part of the "software." Since any new files you put in to be loaded by the game would now be occupying the memory space, you have just altered the software.

Cheers,

The Spyder

Every client-side patch or mod serves the purpose of keeping a player playing by bettering the game in his/her eyes. If the game was perfect none of them would be necessary. There should be a way to customize your power's sounds in game, so they don't give the player a headache. The maps should have a way to alter them so a player can mark important locations (like stores, or paths in that obnoxious perez maze) permanently. Looks like Cryptic should thank these folks for bettering the game, and keeping many players interested(I know folks who would've quit by now if they had to listen to that [censored] targeting drone noise ad infinitum). Cryptic should integrate their ideas into the core product for everyone to use, instead of blowing them off like this. Poor form indeed!

One. More. Time.

If you make a map mod or the like...

CRYPTIC DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT.

So don't discuss it here.

That is ALL.

See my earlier posts on the subject if you want to know why, I'm tired of repeating myself.



-np

Thank you for posting a clarification. This is exactly what I had asked for 2 1/2 months ago when the sound mods started being used to kill the annoying sounds (and the newly introduced sounds of mouth-breathing females. /shudder).

I understand the company position, and agree that it is the only one you can take in our legal environment. I do hope, however, that we will have better control over game sounds from the client side, and/or you have the 'fading-sound' code fully implemented soon.

But again, thank you for the clarification.

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Client modifications are against the Coh Terms of Service agreement found here.
I will be removing all posts/threads about client modification as a result.

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A bad decision. Many games support modding to some degree or another. The map patch was a great addition.

I hope Cryptic review this position in the near future.

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They're entitled to their decision, but I think they've got a bad attitude about it.
Going all nazi on the boards about it isn't the best idea, PR wise...

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I'm not sure what brought this on, but the client sound mods have greatly increased my enjoyment of the game.

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I bet all the people asking for official response on the map and sound mods. Someone company rep trying to help out pushed to get an answer from the wrong high muckitymuck to get an answer and got back "are you crazy? no mods are allowed at all". Always be careful how you ask questions. Should've been asking if the override folder for sounds is a supported feature that will stay. Avoiding the word "mod" like the plague. Sounds dumb, but different wording often gets different answers.

As for maps, well they have mentioned that they want to add it for stores that you have found:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...v=#Post1179893

They don't want everyone to just get the location of stores for free and they most definitely will consider having the PP mazes on maps a cheat mod.

And to back up Spyder's comment:

So create your brand new Broadsword graphic, name it my1337bs.jpg and put it in the data folder and see where it gets you.

Nowhere.

You must follow a certain naming convention, programmed into the game, in order to have these files work. It will look for those files to replace once the game boots up.

So in the end, you have to replace files in the game, files that are packed somewhere else, in order to get the desired effect. Thus, you are breaking TOS by modifying the game.

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If you make a map, or texture, or sound or anything else of the like to be used with the game, it is a derivative.

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I think you're putting too much leeway into the phrase "derivative works." Yes, editing a map is derivative. Making a map by hand copying the layout of fictional content in the game is derivative. Also, EDITING an existing graphic or sound that comes with CoH is derivative.

Making an ORIGINAL sound file or texture file is NOT derivative of the CoH Software or Content simply because you play or display it inside the game client software. That's like saying that ANY graphic you view with ACDSee or IrfanView is derivative of that software or that a homemade recording of my daughter's piano practice is derivative of WinAmp simply because I use it to play it back.

Textures might be derivative simply because you'd have to make it fit over top of the 3D model which you would have to derive the proper dimensinos from protected content. On the other hand, simply making an empty or transparent texture file to cause an in-game graphic (like Force Fields) to NOT show up isn't derivative.

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Additionally, once the game is loaded into memory, the memory space which the game occupies is part of the "software." Since any new files you put in to be loaded by the game would now be occupying the memory space, you have just altered the software.

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I'm just dumbfounded at this statement. Cryptic has specifically put the feature in the game to load alternate files, they just never documented it. They've had threads on their own forums for months detailing the exact method to do just that.

In a similar situation, during beta someone found out pretty much all the command line switches you could use with CITYOFHEROES.EXE and posted them to the forums, including one that let the program remember not just your Login Name but your Password as well. Cryptic read that thread, quickly posted that they would be removing those options, and the very next patch a day or two later the CITYOFHEROES.EXE file could not do those things anymore. Precedent has been set: they knew the features were there, and when they found out the users knew about and were using those features that they did not want being used, they disabled them in a quick and timely manner.

They've known about the users using the external files capability for MONTHS and have not done anything to prevent us from using it. That sets another precedent that they don't consider it "against the rules" because they have an EASY fix for it but have decided to NOT fix it. I'm pretty sure that it's technically too late for them to actually consider this a ToS violation anymore and their only real recourse would be to forcibly turn off the feature of the software. Otherwise this is simply using the software how it was SPECIFICALLY AND PURPOSEFULLY DESIGNED TO BE USED.

I'm guessing they've got their own map changes coming down the pike, and don't want us troublemakers discussing the impact their changes would have on our changes, and so on...

I wondered when this was coming. Making modifications to the client in most games like this is a serious no-no.

i'm disappointed that the custom maps are against the ToS, but i fully understand the decision.

these things can get outta hand very easily (i've played AC, so maybe i'm biased).

CYA NIMBY

So what the is the addy for the unofficial coh mod website?

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I wondered when this was coming. Making modifications to the client in most games like this is a serious no-no.

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Maybe people are failing to understand.

If I add, for instance, "Hippie_Dye_Cowboy-El_Vuelo_Del_La_Iguana_Azul.ogg" to a particular folder, and give it the right name, I hear it at times when people whip out a boombox.

THIS CHANGES THE CLIENT IN NO WAY.

All the files that were part of the client are still there. I have not modified, decompiled, extracted, derived from, reproduced, modified, distributed, displayed, or in any other way altered a single file that was part of the client install. And since I obtained the music file legally (it was given to me by one of the band members that I knew), that isn't an issue either.

And as for Spyder's claim that my computer's memory somehow magically becomes part of the "software" when I run the game, I call BS.

Does that mean that if it swaps out to the hard drive, that my hard drive becomes part of the software as well?

What about the textures that are cached in the video card? Is my video card now software?



Finally, to those who say that any modification to games, display, etc are bad, I would like to refer them to the mod support in Dark Age of Camelot: Trials of Atlantis. The devs decided to permit modifications and skinning of the UI, published extensive documentation on exactly how to do it, and continually updated it. Did this make cheats more likely? No. Did it make the game more usable, and enjoyable? YES!

If you are trying to punish cheaters, then nobody will complain. If, however, you decide to punish everybody, on the grounds that a couple of them *might* cheat, expect resistance. Refer to the complaints about the 9,999 influence limit, supposedly to curb sale of influence on eBay. It didn't stop it. It just made it more annoying to the people that had legitimate cause to trade large amounts of influence.

Blocking us from talking about benign mods won't stop cheaters. If they found a way to cheat, I guarantee they wouldn't post it here anyway. So all you are doing is stopping the legitimate modders, and people who are trying to improve their gaming experience.

Bah. At this point, I am just rambling. I'm out.