I honestly hope we haven't given up already. Have you given up?
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2012-11-08 17:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys.
First, Tim that was another awesome video. Second, I'm too damn stubborn to concede 100%, but thats more of a family trait than anything else, I come from a long line of hardheaded people that takes an awful lot of facts/convincing to change their minds once made up. Though to be honest, I don't see anything changing, but a part of me will always look for something that'll prove me wrong. I have and will continue to log in regularlly to play and host events/tf's til NCSoft kicks me off the live servers kicking and screaming.
I'm very slowly coming to terms with the closure, and after the 30th I'll be forced to find something else to spend my time, but I won't forget my time in the City, nor will I forget those responsible for shutting it down. All questions/comments about if a company should be allowed to shut down a service like this aside, I think we can agree that the BS way it was handled and is continued to be handled is crap, if done differently there would still be a City full of heroes saddened and probably still upset about the closing, but the anger/hatred may not have been so strong.
Thanks to everyone that helped make me a welcomed part of the community, and for giving me over 3 years of some of the best gaming I've been able to take part in. May the next game bring many friendships and maybe reconnect to some old CoH friends.
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Considering the age of the game, nobody knew what to think of MMO's at the time. It was an accepted idea that these games would have an unbelievably long life, and dated engines would be replaced, upgraded, etc. The pioneering game companies probably also thought this was entirely possible. Only recently has the reality of it begun to hit, which is going to drastically alter the way MMO's are handled. This probably has partially influenced F2P becoming an accepted business model. MMO gamers until recently have been like teenagers falling in love for the first time, thinking the 'homecoming' fling is going to last forever. Now the naivety is fading as even successful games are being shut down. You don't want to pay for dinners and shower a person with gifts when in all likelihood you're going to get dumped in a month no matter what. In the long-run, this new-found cynicism could utterly kill the MMO market unless some kind of a guarantee is put in place. |
Originally Posted by Zem
The fact that it was sold to you as a service makes it a service. You were never promised access to these items outside the game. No offline mode existed. You KNEW this. If you decided anyway to spend large amounts of money in the cash shop thinking this game couldn't possible end any time soon, then you made a foolish decision and ought to take some responsibility for that.
That is not to say there should be no consequences for NCSoft. The possibility of cash shop items going away when the game does should be a factor in the decision to buy. It should depress the value of those items, in fact. Now that I think of it, why boycott other NCSoft F2P games when you could join them, participate in their forums, and (subtly) remind your fellow gamers of this fact? You know... as a public service.  |
As for joining other games to 'undermine the evil monarch from within his own kingdom', that would certainly fly in the face of the "voting with your wallet" theory that everyone seems to think makes the corporation vs. consumer match a fair game. The profiteering robots of shareholder-land only communicate in one language, and all they would see is another subscription adding to their already over-sized egos. Besides, we've already seen a lot of censorship happening on Facebook and in other NC-owned game forums regarding CoH. Joining another game and then warning other players about what has happened here, is nothing more than a sure-fire way of getting banned.
define giving up... no, I have moved on. there are other thing more pressing on my plate than to continue investing time in a game that will not be around in 20 days. And in all honesty, my dogs are happier that they are seeing more of me 
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By whom, exactly?|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
It was an accepted idea that these games would have an unbelievably long life, and dated engines would be replaced, upgraded, etc.
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I certainly never, ever thought that when I started playing any MMO, much less this one, since the one I played prior to this one shut down, causing me to look for another.
Where are the facts, even crappy Internet blog posts, to back up this wild assertion?
No one that I have ever encountered, except, well you I guess, has thought MMOs would have 'unbelievably long life'.
Humans come up with all kinds of new cognitive dissonance to explain and justify how their decisions I guess.
MMOs have always been and always will be ephemeral pastimes. Some manage to live on while other don't.
I can easily accept that nothing lasts forever. Certainly easy to accept that no provided service will, in fact, always be provided, ESPECIALLY one that is no more than entertainment. That fact will not, ever, turn me off of the MMO market, only bad MMOs can do that.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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yeah.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Anyone expecting any such law to provide perpetuity is fooling themselves. Such law should simply provide either proper methods for transitioning to an equivalent service or the ability to take the service offline or self-host should the service be unique enough to be non-transferable.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
This will sound like derail but it isnt: the open source movement started not as a freedom of code and software hippie party. The original ideology behind open source was to make software as versatile as hardware. If I own an old Impala, I have all the power in the world to pop open that hood, find a faulty piece and get it repaired somehow, even if this means retrofitting a new piece or going to extremes as having it custom-made.
With non-open-source software, once the company that sold the product goes out of business, discontinues the product or your support contract is up, you are out of luck. With open-source (as in pop-open-the-hood) you can open up the code, change something and recompile, or hire someone to do the custom changes for you. A service protection law may have such a thing as a goal, not to make infinite service but to at least force the hood open once services are discontinued. |
So sounds like the game code and IP would have to be not protected anymore. How would this afford protection of companies and their IP rights? And or what compensation will they recieve for the loss of property due to this law? Or is the goal is to lessen the grip on those rights? Sounds like run the game or else give up the property type of thing. And under this theory of proposed law, what would stop someone from making money off this IP that the company would lose because they no longer want to run it and given that it isnt their work, even abandoned buildings usually cost money to purchase, and here, looks like someone could pick it up for free, and then make millions off work they had no hand in creating nor purchased the rights to. Or would any IP picked up this way be required to only be free with no financial compensation?
Better yet, in the mean time, isnt there already a way to do this, called reverse engineering? As many in the past have said, some in a "vigorous" manner, it's perfectly legal. If that is the case, why would the law even be needed besides to basically say "run the game or lose all claims to the IP." I dont see how any of this benefits the owners of IP at all. Sounds like something to punish them.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Such a law will never be done for games; if it ever comes to be it will be targeted at general cloud services and web based games may be covered simply due to an umbrella effect. I would predict completely free services to be exempt of such laws. Services that accept money, even optionally or for upgraded treatment will likely not be exempt. This is all guesswork, should this EVER come to the table in the next century (and within a century digital will be so important that laws regulating it WILL be drafted.) |
So the main question is what is in it for a company to make any games if when they to trim it, they lose all rights to that property?
People feel hurt for a game, yet want a company to lose a game they may have invested millions, created artwork, storylines, concepts, layout for just for free, just like that?
Property-Think about how many things you sue everyday. Now think about the stuff that havent been used. Why is it there collecting dust? Should you be forced by law to give it away to the homeless man on the corner or to Goodwill? Then why should a company be forced to give up their property?
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Didnt "Mc" start in Scotland? lol.
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Originally Posted by Zem
No joke.
McDonalds must have an army of lawyers that do nothing all day but look for anything starting with the letters "MC". We had a product name once that started with the abbreviation "MCU" (as in, "Micro-Controller Unit") and after filing for a trademark, received a call from a McDonalds lawyer asking for info. Of course they just went, "Oh, okay. Nevermind, thanks!" and hung up. But still... Saw a story once that they've even harassed people in Scotland for having products starting with "Mc" in the name! Think about that a second. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Not "everyone" believes that. Government regulation has its place. Consumer advocacy (and protest) has its place also. Companies are not immune to negative publicity provided it is factual.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
As for joining other games to 'undermine the evil monarch from within his own kingdom', that would certainly fly in the face of the "voting with your wallet" theory that everyone seems to think makes the corporation vs. consumer match a fair game.
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| The profiteering robots of shareholder-land only communicate in one language, and all they would see is another subscription adding to their already over-sized egos. Besides, we've already seen a lot of censorship happening on Facebook and in other NC-owned game forums regarding CoH. Joining another game and then warning other players about what has happened here, is nothing more than a sure-fire way of getting banned. |
And seriously, even if you're not out for blood, this is a very sensible point to make. People SHOULD be aware that cash shops might not be forever. It is in your own best interests to make people aware of this. If it becomes a concern for enough of their customers, then they have to address it. Convincing other people to vote with THEIR wallets instead of just voting with your own, is absolutely fair game.
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I wish I could remember what show I was watching (loooong time ago), but yeah, they were interviewing local people who were outraged that McDonalds was coming in and telling them they couldn't have products named starting with "Mc" in Scotland of all places. They even went up and spoke to Lord MacDonald himself who said something like, "Look, if anyone has the right to the name, it's ME!!"|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
Didnt "Mc" start in Scotland? lol.
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Hilarious.
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lmao
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Originally Posted by Zem
I wish I could remember what show I was watching (loooong time ago), but yeah, they were interviewing local people who were outraged that McDonalds was coming in and telling them they couldn't have products named starting with "Mc" in Scotland of all places. They even went up and spoke to Lord MacDonald himself who said something like, "Look, if anyone has the right to the name, it's ME!!"
Hilarious. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Service protection is a great idea. I just don't see why this needs to be a law. Are we experiencing an epidemic of fly-by-night MMOs opening, setting up cash shops, and then being gone by morning with the profits? Because THAT is real fraud. A legitimate company can't long survive conducting business that way, so while I think we should all be responsible about spending large amounts of money in the cash shops of these F2P games, I don't exactly see this as a problem the market shouldn't be able to solve on its own yet.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
With non-open-source software, once the company that sold the product goes out of business, discontinues the product or your support contract is up, you are out of luck. With open-source (as in pop-open-the-hood) you can open up the code, change something and recompile, or hire someone to do the custom changes for you.
A service protection law may have such a thing as a goal, not to make infinite service but to at least force the hood open once services are discontinued. |
Exhibit A -- Star Wars: The Old Republic.
LOTS of people think that SWTOR is on its way out if F2P doesn't revive it and that may well be a self-fulfilling prophecy if people are too afraid to pony up to the cash shop. If I were these guys, I'd "go big or go home." Put your rep on the table and guarantee cash shop purchases for up to one year prior to any closure. That gives immediate assurance that you will be able to enjoy those purchases for at least a year (or your money back!), allowing you to value them appropriately. It will encourage people to open those wallets when they might otehrwise be fearful to do so.
Doesn't mean you will be supporting a dev team for that whole year. If it really isn't working out you can slowly cut back and ramp down development until you're in maintenance mode. The writing will be on the wall, but if you keep the game open for a year, even in a low-cost mode like that, you can keep all those initial cash shop purchases at least. People have time to enjoy their purchases and won't feel like they've been cheated, even if they aren't exactly happy you're closing down their MMO.
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That sounds about as subtle as a jackhammer. Also, I recall that people who voiced various criticisms about CoH's cash shop were dogpiled in these forums. I don't know why you think you'd receive better treatment in other MMO communities.
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Originally Posted by Zem
That'd be why I used the word "subtly". You can't just burst in there and go ranting about the death of CoH. Instead you very nonchalantly insert yourself into a conversation about some item on the cash shop, maybe even expressing interest in it yourself, but also "concern" about the value of that item given it's only good for as long as the game lasts. You don't have to breathe a word about CoH.
And seriously, even if you're not out for blood, this is a very sensible point to make. People SHOULD be aware that cash shops might not be forever. It is in your own best interests to make people aware of this. If it becomes a concern for enough of their customers, then they have to address it. Convincing other people to vote with THEIR wallets instead of just voting with your own, is absolutely fair game. |
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Answer: yes.
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Originally Posted by DarkBlaster_NA
Title.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
tl;dr the thread so my post here is just the title's answer. Not responding or even knowledgeable about any of the previous posts. So read it that way, k? K.
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I haven't exactly given up all hope. Perhaps the SSA2 was appropriately named "Pandora's Box", which is kinda eerie in a way. Hope is always there. Just because today, the game is set to stop in it's tracks... doesn't mean there's not some philanthropist who simply MUST acquire and run CoH... or NCSoft has to have a fire sale and finally sells the IP... Or whatever else might be possible...
There are always possibilities. Spock said so.
It's just the current situation is what it is, and there's not a terrible much I can do, except this one thing:
KEEP ON PLAYING. As much as I can. Right up until the end. To show that, at least on my part... I ain't done yet. I got dozens of alts besides my 8 50s. They're all enjoyable in some way. Hell, I plan on (after I get through posting in here because I am having withdrawls about not posting..) trying to get my first ever Blaster I actually like to 50 before it's all done.
Why? BECAUSE. I just wanna. It's a fun character, be nice to see what it is in uber mode, and see how it comes together.
Game's not done yet. Neither am I. Off I go to enjoy it, like a fine wine, a cool car, or a movie. All of which cost more to 'play' than CoH ever did.
I don't hold out hope about the studio being saved or even resurrected. But if there's a chance that the game can live on, and be played, for no other reason than to just play the dang thing, and even with just SOs... It should be. The game is fun, and the legacy of the devs shouldn't die in a virtual trash bin.
So there ya go.
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
Well there you have it, folks.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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It wasn't something that anyone ever openly talked about, because frankly there wasn't any need to. Nobody really knew what to expect of MMO's when they began, but the wording of certain things, listening to devs talking about their visions, hearing the long-term goals of other players, etc, all pointed towards a very long-term plan. Even just the amount of grind-time of some early MMO's demanded years of commitment from a more casual gamer (and in the case of a hard-core one, the calculations of time needed to fully level a pre-NGE Jedi in SWG was ridiculously long, and was only changed after a tremendous amount of whining from the community). |
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
By whom, exactly?
I certainly never, ever thought that when I started playing any MMO, much less this one, since the one I played prior to this one shut down, causing me to look for another. Where are the facts, even crappy Internet blog posts, to back up this wild assertion? No one that I have ever encountered, except, well you I guess, has thought MMOs would have 'unbelievably long life'. Humans come up with all kinds of new cognitive dissonance to explain and justify how their decisions I guess. MMOs have always been and always will be ephemeral pastimes. Some manage to live on while other don't. I can easily accept that nothing lasts forever. Certainly easy to accept that no provided service will, in fact, always be provided, ESPECIALLY one that is no more than entertainment. That fact will not, ever, turn me off of the MMO market, only bad MMOs can do that. |
If I were to compare the vision of an MMO to anything, I guess it would be a television station, rather than a television show. When certain shows went sour, the station would run new shows (content) and the viewers(players) would keep coming back. Just because its entertainment doesn't mean its automatically expected to have a short lifespan.
Another reason that few had any real foresight about the impact of shutdowns, is MMO's are the first time as far as I know, that any games have been released that couldn't be played independently of company servers. And of the multiplayer deathmatch-style games that predated MMO's and DID rely on company servers, I'm not aware of any company that didn't allow the players to set up private ones after the official servers went dark.
And this assumption isn't even for just old MMO's. Before launch, Bioware openly said at a press conference that they expected to have 500 planets in SWTOR by the year 2025. So at a time long after the fickle nature of MMO communities is common knowledge, and before the game has even launched, they expected it to last at least 14 years. Not even a year later, the game has had to switch to an F2P model. If you want to try and call their 14-year assumption "advertising fluff" I suppose you can, but that's pretty ridiculous even for fluff.
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I don't know about expecting, but they said they were hoping to last decades. And that 2025 comment was made jokingly if you watch that comic-con swtor panel at 30:10.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
And this assumption isn't even for just old MMO's. Before launch, Bioware openly said at a press conference that they expected to have 500 planets in SWTOR by the year 2025. So at a time long after the fickle nature of MMO communities is common knowledge, and before the game has even launched, they expected it to last at least 14 years.
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The laughter was lost when people did the transcript for it.
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The graceful, customer-friendly thing to have done would have been to say: "We no longer care about this game. We are retaining the intellectual rights, but here, you can run an emulator [or whatever] with our blessing, as long as no one makes any money off of it." |
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Companies now should not be 'allowed' to stop products and services they no longer wish to continue?
Really? So Windows '95 should still be sold and supported? Really? |
Step back, give the fans the keys. CoX is dead to them, what do they really care what happens to it? I dont think they ever cared about it to begin with, judging from the lack of advertising it got. That is no longer relevant, sad to say.
But they're not going to do anything even remotely similar, so they should not be surprised when fans begin to evade their Ultra-Killswitch-With-No-Backing-Down policy using various methods. NCSoft will be all hurt and surprised and upset when it happens, just like the R-Money camp was when women rendered final judgement last Tuesday on their recent War on Women.
"How could they! OMG! WHAT?!!! WAIT!" Oh yeah. That innocent act will do evildoers no good whatsoever, whether concerning this game, or in general regarding politics or in any other realm of life. Meanwhile I am backing up all of my main characters. So are a metric ton of other people. We're doing it for a reason, and if NCSoft starts clutching their pearls over it, we really dont care.
After all, they don't care about us.
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No less protected than the plethora of other games that people purchase and play independent of an ongoing service.
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
So sounds like the game code and IP would have to be not protected anymore.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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true but that is why one, those games tend to cost more, and why NCSoft and others chose to make online games instead of those console games. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
No less protected than the plethora of other games that people purchase and play independent of an ongoing service.
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Once those games are sold, the console ones, they dont have to worry about trying to keep customers happy with bunch of updates, keeping server running, paying a full time dev and bug killing team, and etc. They just make it release it and move on. Thus those games go for about 60 a pop now?
While COX cost about half that for the box, and 15 a month to pay for the work that goes into running it and the risk of players staying or leaving. And when it reaches a point that they feel is not worth it, they have to pull plug, which naturally seems to piss the players off regardless of how, when, why, etc. of how they do it.
This is not a worry with console games. But I dont think they give up the IP and stuff for console games just because they are done producing it so why would MMO game makers have to? I bet if someone madea Madden 95 right now, and game maker may not be too happy especially if the person is making money off of it and even though the game maker probably have no intention of making another Madden 95. (Of course Madden is still running but insert any console game is the point is about the same.)
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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When this game released its retail price was in the typical range of PC games. Of course, in the time that I've been playing this game it has cost me more money than every other game I've played within that time period combined.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
true but that is why one, those games tend to cost more, and why NCSoft and others chose to make online games instead of those console games.
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| But I dont think they give up the IP and stuff for console games just because they are done producing it so why would MMO game makers have to? |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
early on i had hope that the game would get passed on before the official closing date
since november started though i know that is no longer an option, but ncsoft has already made a very disgruntled customer out of me and every chance i get i will not let them live this down
i refuse to use or support anything owned by ncsoft, and everyone who wants me to recommend something to them the first thing i will say is "not anything from ncsoft"
as far as im concerned, if ncsoft is unwilling to release the IP to someone else to improve upon or continue the game in any way, then ncsoft deserves to fail and go down with the game
im not exactly someone who holds grudges, but ncsoft is killing off something that i consider part of my family which is completely unacceptable and the only way i will be happy is if they either allow the game to return or die themselves
I gave up right away. I'm really not trying to sound like an A-hole, or arrogant in any way, but I thought the SaveCOH "movement" was pointless from the start. Admirable, but pointless.
I plan on trying out TES: Online. I was way against it up until I saw the new dev doc (I hate dev docs btw) and it actually looks pretty interesting (damnit the dev doc actually worked on me) and has a lot of CoH style design choices such as being able to play solo, having a somewhat open ended character design system, action oriented combat and it doesn't seem at this point to adhere to the "holy trinity" of tank/healer/dps.
The world design is pretty amazing and the game has a massive amount of lore to pull from the annals of TES history (which is extremely robust and very interesting for those who don't know).
I also like the notion of their mega-server technology. If that works then it can have the potential to eliminate one of the biggest problems CoH has suffered in it's waning years: empty servers.
I do not like how they mentioned the game "opens up" at level 50 (presumably the level cap). That tells me it is gonna be a raiding game from the get go. Hopefully the first 49 levels aren't just filler until the "real" game begins. That said, the dev did mention that you can solo the end-game raids, play with small groups or large groups, and the whole thing will adjust it's difficulty accordingly. That sounds cool.
There are also, supposedly, a ton of armor customization options. It won't be on the same level as CoH but the art design actually looks pretty damn good.
But yeah, that's what I'll be doing.
I gave up long ago. It's dead, Jim. I will not play an emulator, and NCSoft isn't selling. Best bet you can hope for is that they'll revisit the IP in the coming years and create a CoH 2. That may be why they're holding onto the IP - because they have a long term plan in mind for CoH 2. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they announced it on December 1st. But I'd be equally unsurprised if they just want it to go away forever.
*shrug* I guess it's easier for me. I missed three years of the game, and coming back to it was difficult. Fun and exciting, but difficult - like hooking up with an old girlfriend from ten years back.
The only thing that's going to bug me in years to come is getting that feeling of deja vu and realizing it was from CoH.
Or when I've contracted alzheimers, regress back to my youth, and scream out "SB please" to the bemusement of the nursing home staff.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
That is not to say there should be no consequences for NCSoft. The possibility of cash shop items going away when the game does should be a factor in the decision to buy. It should depress the value of those items, in fact. Now that I think of it, why boycott other NCSoft F2P games when you could join them, participate in their forums, and (subtly) remind your fellow gamers of this fact? You know... as a public service.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!