I honestly hope we haven't given up already. Have you given up?
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2012-11-08 17:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Indeed, given their relatively small size they did a good job by even getting noticed. It was a good effort.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
However, we DID give them a hell of a shock with our organization. Everyone who participated in that should feel quite proud of themselves for that.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Just so my contribution to this thread isn't all snark, I gave up hope when NCSoft made their followup announcement that they exhausted all options, thanks for the support of the game, blah blah blah. Up until that point, I wasn't sure. I didn't expect anything to come of the petitions and server vigils and such, but when I read that former Paragon management was trying to buy the game I thought they might have had a chance.
As for moving on, I did that back in July. I ran out of interesting things to do, so I let my sub lapse while I played other games. I would have eventually resubbed when the devs added enough new content to draw me back in. Oh well, c'est la vie.
Anyone notice how quiet TonyV has been?
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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and that is where I think consumer responsibility should kick in to decide whether or not it's worth it to spend money on a game thst may be gone at any moments time compared to paying more upfront for more security.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Being able to play an MMO offline wouldn't be "giving up the IP" any more than that's the case for other games that can be played independent of a service. |
Yet I think we are on tow different topics. I'm talking about more of the range of someone making money off the works of others. aka. say, in the realm of this law, that someone picks up the "IP" and runs with it. Where or when or how is the original owners and or the creators or people that have bought and or invested inthe license of said property is to be properly copentsated for their work or is it use it or lose it type deal that only benefit the players with nothing in benefits for the company?
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
I never had any faith that CoH could be saved.
Why?
Because any and all efforts relied upon one thing and one thing only being true: NC giving a f***. They don't. Curtains.
I'm only ladylike when compared to my sister.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Anyone notice how quiet TonyV has been?
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Over here? Yeah.
'nuff said.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I've not given up but no longer hold hope that CoH will continue. I've given NCSoft feedback as a customer (I think my message was reasonable and not ballistic) but they never replied, unlike other companies I write to who at least acknowledgement reciept of mail and claim to value me as a customer. I'm thru with NCSoft as soon as they are thru with CoH - and other than CoH, NCSoft has no other product that interests me. Just as well, probably, that I won't be tempted to do business with this MMO-Killer in the future.
aka @Kristoff von Gelmini, leader of small SG bases (Infinity/Victory/Virtue/Protector), member of The House of Tera (Justice) and various others (Champion/Infinity/Victory/Guardian/Freedom).
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No. If I am a customer, and I own the game, even if they "open" up the service so I can either host my own server or have my private one-player game, that does not give me ANY right at redistributing what I got. Copyright protection is still there at full strength.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
So sounds like the game code and IP would have to be not protected anymore.
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IP protection (copyrights) are not about limiting use, it has never been. It's only about limiting... well... what the name says: copying.
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You are always a class act Hyperstrike, even when I'm on the other side of the fence on some issues. If everyone had their head screwed on as well as you I would not have worried so much about the save CoH movement. Maybe I should not have cared at all about what other people do that I find futile but the game and the community has been great to me for a number of years and the fact is I do care quite a bit.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I haven't "given up".
I'm a realist about it right now though. NCSoft is NOT interested in selling at this juncture. Let's see how a few lousy quarters tenderizes them though. Maybe the game ITSELF won't be able to be resurrected. But the IP could be freed up in the future. Nobody here has ANYTHING to feel ashamed about. We tried. We did everything humanly possible within the realms of sanity to try and save the game. Unfortunately, NCSoft, at this juncture, is absolutely insane and looking to scuttle the property. However, we DID give them a hell of a shock with our organization. Everyone who participated in that should feel quite proud of themselves for that. The monster black-eye this closure is going to give them via word-of-mouth in the next few years (think about it, a company with millions of players being given a big old shiner by ~50,000 or so people that aren't even in their core market) is going to be another legacy of this. Also, hopefully, the discussions it has sparked about the nature of online communities and MMOs in general will be a fitting legacy for us all. It's been an honor and privilege to work and play with all of you (even the ones I've wanted to boot in the head on occasion). |
I have to honest with you, the certainty that some people expressed that they personally were going to save the game and the (lynch) mob mentality that sometimes prevailed with the save CoH movement had/has me a liitle concerned. But the cause was noble, and the actions were unselfish and by and large understandable (if not IMHO effective).
So yeah, nothing to be ashamed about. Now I'm just hoping nobody got disillusioned or scarred too badly from the result. It does happen you know... even with video games... to tell ya the truth... it has happened before to me.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
[QUOTE=Hyperstrike;4420798]
It's been an honor and privilege to work and play with all of you (even the ones I've wanted to boot in the head on occasion).[/QUOTE
Lisa timidly pokes her head in....I hope I am not one of the ones you wanted to boot in the head...I want City Of Heroes to Be Saved as much as everyone...and I did participate in the Atlas33, and I did write a whole lot of letters and emails....
I am sorry I have been writing about playing Guildwars2, but it is quality fun, I can solo, play with others in it, and best of all I now understand the game mechanics.
I am going to miss all the forum regulars...Pancake...I am upset with NCSOFT...
If only they had told us ahead of time that we were lacking as to their vision, and, told us just what that vision was, we could have maybe saved the game or understood why things had to be.
A thought...if, in the future, NCSOFT has decided it has enough Wons in the bank, and enough games both following their new direction and making a profit,they may start thinking about releasing the City Of Heroes IP as a goodwill gesture....this will not happen if we start running about the Internet bashing NCSOFT. If we start trashing NCSOFT, they will have zero interest in giving us what we want.
Take care everyone.
Lisa.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
He hasn't posted on Titan for 6 days either........ Just saying.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Over here? Yeah.
'nuff said. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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I have indeed.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Anyone notice how quiet TonyV has been?
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Fingers, toes, and eyes crossed that he is under a NDA for something nice....I have a big enough heart to love two MMOs
Lisa.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
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Really? Because I recall plenty of DOOM when F2P was announced here. |
Originally Posted by Intrinsic
That sounds about as subtle as a jackhammer. Also, I recall that people who voiced various criticisms about CoH's cash shop were dogpiled in these forums.
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| I don't know why you think you'd receive better treatment in other MMO communities. |
So maybe you get flamed for suggesting the new game might not last that long and it might not be a good idea to drop hundreds of dollars on the cash shop right away. Big deal. At least people heard you, which you can't say for calls to boycott games. No one is going to notice a boycott from a few CoH players.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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Right.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Your saying it's not an investment doesn't make it a non-investment.
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The FACTS take care of that.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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One invests time, money, whatever, into many things, and hobbies have been being called investments since long before MMO's existed.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Right.
The FACTS take care of that. |
Neither the "It's just a game" argument, nor an intense desire for business to be unaccountable for its actions magically isolates MMO gaming from all other hobbies that people invest in.
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You can choose to 'invest' time, money, etc in anything you want. That doesn't change the nature of whatever you're 'investing' in. It's still a monthly paid service, just like your cable TV or phone. No actions or decisions on your part change that.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
One invests time, money, whatever, into many things, and hobbies have been being called investments since long before MMO's existed.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Well, your "rule" needs to change then. |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
You can choose to 'invest' time, money, etc in anything you want. That doesn't change the nature of whatever you're 'investing' in. It's still a monthly paid service, just like your cable TV or phone. No actions or decisions on your part change that.
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People deserve better treatment than being stomped out like a spent cigarette butt after supporting a business for nearly a decade.
Otherwise, what can people use to 'divine' whether or not anything is worth the time? It made sense when games were being shut down for wasting money. But now even games that are still in the black can be deemed not worth keeping alive? Now we can't even trust businesses to behave like businesses?
Just because you do not like the explanation NCSoft gave - does not mean they did not give an explanation; nor do they owe you any further explanation.
They said they are changing their focus to other games - that is their explanation. They have no moral obligation to say any more than that. Just because people feel an emotional attachment to CoH does not mean NCSoft should have to hold your hand and soothe your tears - they are a worldwide business not some Mom & Pop store that has serviced a small community for 20 years. Maybe if people could stop and see NCSoft as a business instead of personalizing them as an evil entity to be "defeated" they would realize that they are owed nothing more than what they were given.
They do not need to hold themselves accountable to you, me, or any other CoH players. It is JUST a business no matter how much you want to personalize it. They stated their reasoning; people are just unwilling to accept that it was a business decision...and not a personal attack against you or anyone else. Sometimes businesses make decisions that affect a small part of their customer base; knowing that if they lose them it is still an acceptable loss. CoH was a SMALL part of NCSoft's overall customer base. The closing of CoH has not hurt NCSoft financially as can be evidenced by the massive amount of players who HAVE moved on...a lot of whom have moved on to other NCSoft titles (I personally know of 7 very large and very active guilds in GW2 represented by various servers of former CoH players). So you see: Acceptable loss - a simple business decision. They didn't destroy your home...they didn't murder your community...they closed down one of their games to focus on other products they think will bring them MORE profit; ya know what businesses need to survive....
FYI If you HONESTLY think NCSoft's stock prices have been influenced by CoH you are completely wrong. There are so many factors which go into the valuation of their stock...and no blog post or hashtag is making a bit of difference in those valuations.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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And when you run a billion+ worldwide corporation you can make that decision.
Just because a few people FEEL like they are being treated badly doesn't mean the entire player base feels that way. Heck I was glad we got a 90 day sunset. I was glad I got a refund on my Paragon points purchase and subscription. I was glad I kept my VIP status after my sub time lapsed.
NCSoft could have truly been jerks about it and closed the game on 9/30 if they really wanted to. They could have made accounts lapse into premium. They could have taken the forums down on 8/31. They could have done a lot of things that would have been much worse. So no I am grateful for the time I had with CoH, and the time/treatment after the announcement.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Well, your "rule" needs to change then.
People deserve better treatment than being stomped out like a spent cigarette butt after supporting a business for nearly a decade. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Dumbest phrase ever created by humans, done for no other reason than to trick society into believing that being a business somehow mystically ascends you to a god-like status and makes you accountable to nobody. Everyone is just accustomed to it being that way. Doesn't make it right. It's a kind of free-reign that business never should've had. And this isn't the same kind of thing as intense regulation that some people are whining is evil socialism, communism, or whatever they're calling it now. What happens when people start acting immoral? A law gets passed to discourage such behavior. Why should businesses not have to operate under the same pretense?|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
It is JUST a business
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Just imagine other activities being given that get-out-of-blame-for-free card.
"It's just war."
"It's just terrorism."
"It's just theft."
Doesn't make sense, does it? Neither does it when applied to business, or any other thing you can dream up.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
They said they are changing their focus to other games - that is their explanation.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
They didn't destroy your home...they didn't murder your community...
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Though technically, whether or not the community gets murdered remains to be seen...
It is THEIR product. They shouldn't be forced to wait until it's losing money to do what they want with their product. They have a threshold of what their products SHOULD be making; Paragon knew this threshold. If their products weren't bringing in the profits NCSoft wanted it is their RIGHT as the owner of the product to pull the plug. Stop humanizing a fricking video game already. When something is not meeting it's business goals it is the right of that business to pull the product...which is what NCSoft did.
As evidenced by their decision; CoH was not bringing in the profits NCSoft wanted. It is their product and if they didn't want it to be left to become unprofitable so be it. The main reason people are so up in arms nearly 3 months later can be attributed to a very unhealthy codependency on a video game. You can paint NCSoft as evil etc all you want, but it was their decision to make and they made it based off a lot more information regarding CoH financials than you know or are entitled to know. CoH was not some cash making machine..it was BARELY treading water. No amount of NCSoft bashing can hide the facts: CoH was dying a slow death...NCSoft pulled the plug and put it out of it's misery...that humanizing enough for you to understand?
Maybe in 3 weeks when people wake up; the reality of the situation will finally make some sense to them and they can actually start processing the whole thing instead of clinging to false hopes and the whole AntiNC (Titan) propaganda.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Dumbest phrase ever created by humans, done for no other reason than to trick society into believing that being a business somehow mystically ascends you to a god-like status and makes you accountable to nobody. Everyone is just accustomed to it being that way. Doesn't make it right. It's a kind of free-reign that business never should've had. And this isn't the same kind of thing as intense regulation that some people are whining is evil socialism, communism, or whatever they're calling it now. What happens when people start acting immoral? A law gets passed to discourage such behavior. Why should businesses not have to operate under the same pretense?
Just imagine other activities being given that get-out-of-blame-for-free card. "It's just war." "It's just terrorism." "It's just theft." Doesn't make sense, does it? Neither does it when applied to business, or any other thing you can dream up. That's cryptic-speak (no pun intended) for, "We just felt like it." Nope, sorry. When a product is still profitable, that should be good enough for anyone. They weren't losing any sleep over it. It should've been left alone. At least wait until it becomes wasteful. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Most of you post is filled with random hyperbole and such, but this part shows a fairly fundamental lack of basic business knowledge. Companies don't exist to just make a profit and whatever they get is 'good enough' so they just accept it. That's what beggars do. Companies exist to maximize their profits, and in the case of publicly owned firms, they have a legal obligation to financially perform as best they can in the market or their investors can take action against them. When you see a phase like "Changing company focus", it absolutely does not mean "because we felt like it" as though it were some whimsical pre-morning coffee idea. What it means is that they have analyzed their products and the market and determined that they can get a better return on their investment, thus maximizing their profits, by doing something else with their money.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
That's cryptic-speak (no pun intended) for, "We just felt like it." Nope, sorry. When a product is still profitable, that should be good enough for anyone. They weren't losing any sleep over it. It should've been left alone. At least wait until it becomes wasteful.
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So this constant droning on about how CoX may or may not have been eking out a profit is irrelevant. What matters is if it was generating the best return on the funds they were investing in it, and the answer is clearly "No".
It's as simple as that.
As an aside, most companies hate having to do this. Even with the most compelling evidence they can get, it's still a huge risk to shift from a longstanding product to a new one. Until the new product(s) is out, all a company has is projections and forecasts, all of which can crumble in the face of actual market performance. Coca Cola did extensive market research, focus groups, test markets, surveys, everything they could to be sure the consumer wanted a change, and New Coke still tanked. It happens, but companies do everything they can to make sure it won't before they pull the trigger.
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1: People don't deserve better treatment. If they don't get it, they have ways to even the playing field. Namely, by not allowing any more of their money go to the company in question.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Well, your "rule" needs to change then.
People deserve better treatment than being stomped out like a spent cigarette butt after supporting a business for nearly a decade. Otherwise, what can people use to 'divine' whether or not anything is worth the time? It made sense when games were being shut down for wasting money. But now even games that are still in the black can be deemed not worth keeping alive? Now we can't even trust businesses to behave like businesses? |
2: Buyer beware. If you trust Anyone trying to sell you Anything, you're a fool.
Be well, people of CoH.
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But here's the thing. I've dealt with divisions that aren't meeting the mothership's expectations, both as a customer and once as an employee. There's no secret about the situation, it's made very clear that the situation is bad and things need happening. You do this in part with the hope that they'll turn the situation around, or they'll so self-destruct that it's obvious why its being shut down when the time comes.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
It is THEIR product. They shouldn't be forced to wait until it's losing money to do what they want with their product. They have a threshold of what their products SHOULD be making; Paragon knew this threshold. If their products weren't bringing in the profits NCSoft wanted it is their RIGHT as the owner of the product to pull the plug. Stop humanizing a fricking video game already. When something is not meeting it's business goals it is the right of that business to pull the product...which is what NCSoft did.
As evidenced by their decision; CoH was not bringing in the profits NCSoft wanted. It is their product and if they didn't want it to be left to become unprofitable so be it. The main reason people are so up in arms nearly 3 months later can be attributed to a very unhealthy codependency on a video game. You can paint NCSoft as evil etc all you want, but it was their decision to make and they made it based off a lot more information regarding CoH financials than you know or are entitled to know. CoH was not some cash making machine..it was BARELY treading water. No amount of NCSoft bashing can hide the facts: CoH was dying a slow death...NCSoft pulled the plug and put it out of it's misery...that humanizing enough for you to understand? |
And what happens then is that you do have people leaving the company while they can (always better on your resume for "got offered a better job" than "got laid off"), things get delayed, marketing tends to take on a hysterical tone. In our case, it would've meant stuff being shoveled into the store to try to get people to part with money. And the rumor mill starts running rampant - they're being shut down, they're being bought out, they're going to change everything.
And while all this is going on, the division starts getting shopped around. There are no accounting tricks that make a sale worth less than shelving something - even if you sell it for less than your book value, you get the deduction of the difference, same as the deduction as it depreciates away. And remember, the value of a deduction is the deduction times the tax rate. The value of income from a sale is every penny of the sale up to the book value and then (1-taxrate)*(saleprice-bookprice) for money above the book value. Plus you don't have to pay severance pay or the other closing costs if the deal is handled right.
We got none of that, and from everything the people who worked for Paragon Studios said, this was a total shock.
This was not a normal business decision "oh well, they just aren't measuring up, time to close the book on it." This was a snap decision and those are rarely well thought out.
And while you're right, NCSoft could have been more of a jerk - what they did was pretty jerkish. "You're all fired, pack your bags and you're gone". No chance to finish up what they were working. And an active hostility to selling it.
Yes, it's their business to screw up. But you could present this as a case study to a first year business class for "spot all the stupid things done and how to do them better".
*edit* Oh, and if it's not obvious, here's my first top 3 of stupid things.
(1) The snap mass layoff. They had some good people working there, who might have been convinced to move to another project if approached quietly before the fact and the close had been handled better. Instead, all those people, the star performers and any who might be just regular workers, are looking for work at their competition. And should NCSoft want to do something in the future in this genre, they'll find it difficult to convince them to listen again.
(1a) The impact of the news on both other employees and potential future employees could come back to bite them. Any other skilled employee at ArenaNet or other divisions has to be eyeing this and thinking "what if..." and some are probably updating their resumes.
(2) Customer reaction. One of the greatest assets CoH had was a fanatically loyal customer base. Frankly, one of the ongoing mistakes was not making better use of it, offering "opportunities" to get into the other games, even incentives for being brand ambassadors for NCSoft. But now, that fanatically loyal customer base is unhappy with NCSoft. No, not all of them are going to be utterly boycotting NCSoft forever and talking them down every chance they get, but many will and most regular players are unhappy. If nothing else, do it AFTER GuildWars II ships so as not to kill sales to that base.
(3) Maintaining IP value. As said above, selling IP improves the bottom line over shelving it. Yes, that's not 100% true, there are some costs in doing the sale, but the costs of a sale aren't that high. NCSoft screwed up twice here, once by simply refusing to sell, once by not shopping it around before the shutdown (the value of a game plummets when a shutdown is announced to say nothing of the developer team being laid off). That could have been reduced by an announcement on the day "we are actively looking for a partner to purchase this IP and keep it going. If you have a serious offer, please contact xxxx@ncsoft.com"
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
I haven't "given up".
I'm a realist about it right now though. NCSoft is NOT interested in selling at this juncture.
Let's see how a few lousy quarters tenderizes them though. Maybe the game ITSELF won't be able to be resurrected. But the IP could be freed up in the future.
Nobody here has ANYTHING to feel ashamed about.
We tried. We did everything humanly possible within the realms of sanity to try and save the game. Unfortunately, NCSoft, at this juncture, is absolutely insane and looking to scuttle the property.
However, we DID give them a hell of a shock with our organization. Everyone who participated in that should feel quite proud of themselves for that.
The monster black-eye this closure is going to give them via word-of-mouth in the next few years (think about it, a company with millions of players being given a big old shiner by ~50,000 or so people that aren't even in their core market) is going to be another legacy of this.
Also, hopefully, the discussions it has sparked about the nature of online communities and MMOs in general will be a fitting legacy for us all.
It's been an honor and privilege to work and play with all of you (even the ones I've wanted to boot in the head on occasion).
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