NCSoft Declines More Interviews from Increasing Gaming Press Requests

TonyV, you never cease to amaze me in your rabid ignorance of reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyV ... is the only way I can continue using the software I've paid good money for, then I will support any such efforts underway. ... ... All they have to do is to provide some means by which I can continue using the software I've paid good money for. ... it's their own durn fault for effectively disabling my software by shutting down their servers and forcing me to take measures to use what I've paid for. ...

You do not own the software, you never did.

You don't even own the characters you copied out of the game with your toolkit.

You rented all of it. The whole time. From day one.

NC owns all of it, every single bit and byte.

Plus, they are not going to do bother with any legal action until such time as an emulator is up and running, as they cannot take legal action on the ravings of some rabid game fan-boys who claim they are doing something until there is an actual thing that infringes.

Now, if and when you get something working, if no one ever makes a dime off of it, if it has the low profile I expect it to have because the actual number of people interested will be tiny, if NC never plans to re-use the IP, then and only then you might not get the weight of the NC legal arm after you.

That's a lot of ifs.

Not to mention the fact that you are doing everything in your power to raise your profile with them, giving them an additional reason to go after whatever you get running.

You are setting yourself for a huge failure.

The only reason it makes me sad, is that you are taking others with you who might not realize it.

I would point out that there are actually two programming projects being discussed over at Titan.

One is the aforementioned emulator. Which is technically legal, but bear in mind that you can still be sued over otherwise "legal" stuff. Civil court does not follow the same rules as criminal court. Also, the party filing the lawsuit doesn't actually have to WIN the suit, many "win" by simply making the costs of fighting the lawsuit too expensive for the target to bear.

Also being worked on is "Plan Z", which is to make a superhero game from scratch that is similar enough to COH that someone playing will definately feel at home, but different enough to avoid IP problems. Copyright only protects specific implementations of ideas, not the idea itself. You can make stuff with the same idea, as long as you use a different implementation. Like an artist copying a specific STYLE to create a specific feel, but not actually duplicating any prior artwork.

For example, you can make a city block sorta reminiscent of Atlas Park, as long as you don't actually DUPLICATE it. Different buildings & layout, different textures, different coding and place names, etc. Perhaps a statue of the mythological character "Atlas" holding a hollow sphere-style globe instead of the current superhero "Atlas" holding that solid globe. That sorta thing.



-np

Loving all the armchair lawyers and the sheeple who believe the tripe they've been fed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajorPrankster You do not own the software, you never did.

That is something that is very much hotly disputed right now. Google right of first sale. The license agreement may say that, but that doesn't make it legal or true. If it said that NCSoft owns your firstborn child, don't you think that might run afoul of a few laws?

Content companies are lobbying very hard to make this a reality, but it wasn't always so and doesn't have to be. The big media players want you to be a good little consumer that has no rights and keeps coming back for more. The EFF is fighting to prevent it. They've lost some battles, but they've also won some.

There are also certain protections in place due to the risk of companies using DRM and then shutting down the server that lets you access it in order to force you to buy new things. Look up the DMCA exceptions for bypassing technical copy-protection measures in order to access legally purchased works that no longer function due to the manufacturer discontinuing support or no longer making it available.

TL;DR, depending on which jurisdiction you live in, you may own your copy (subject to the usual restrictions on unauthorized duplication/distribution), or you may merely own a license subject to the whims of a corporation. If you're in one where it's still contested, DO NOT SIMPLY LAY DOWN AND GIVE UP YOUR RIGHTS, or you're part of the problem.

Edit: Some relevant court cases:

Supporting "software is licensed":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDY_Ind...Entm%27t,_Inc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.

Supporting "transaction is a sale, you own it":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoftMan...e_Systems_Inc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...oup_v._Augusto

Also, NCSoft themselves are currently involved in a lawsuit over Lineage II addiction. The court denied their motion to dismiss that was based on the EULA's disclaimer of liability, on the grounds that a license agreement cannot override liability for gross negligence.

And as I said, the party filing the lawsuit doesn't have to be legally "right" or even win, they just have to make it so expensive that the target is forced to stop or be bankrupted.

Don't get me wrong, I want CoH saved, but the talk about legality is kinda moot. It doesn't matter if they're legal or not. NCSoft can and has taken legal action over emulators regardless of whether they're "legal". Being shut down because you can't afford a lawsuit is the same as being shut down for illegal activities. You're still shut down.




-np

I have to echo some of Codewalker's points. The level of law ignorance here (on every side) is insane.

There is only one thing that can be illegal and it is the redistribution of copyrighted material.

I have software from NCSoft they distributed to me, I acquired it legally and never stole it. I also paid for access to their servers, but that's a separate matter.

For all legal points: I can do anything I want with the software I got EXCEPT redistribute it. Many of the things I do with it CAN violate the contract of service, but the best this can do is give NCSoft a reason to cancel my account (and they are doing this Nov 30 either way.)

Not that the "small" redistribution clause is huge. I can't give anyone else my data files. I can't host them in a website. I can’t install it in a hard drive and then sell the hard drive and claim ignorance.


Now, on the entire Emulator thing that comes on too many threads and too many people that know nothing keep calling "illegal", it all depends what is done.

Reverse engineering of the technical networking of the game is not protected by law. You can do an emulator that contacts the game and acts as a server.

You can't have that server host copyright material, though. That may be a killer for an emulation project because for this game, content is king and all the content needs to also be hosted in the server for it to work properly.

There may be ways to make a server work in a different way, somehow reading data from the clients. Another option would be to give up on the content and just recreate either the Architect or invent new content and a method to patch the clients to get the data needed for the new content to work. You can use the characters that are already in the game since you don't actually upload them nor even name them in the server side (or at least don't have to) you just call them via a handle.

Anyways, I think an emulator that attempts to replicate the game 100% is not possible legally or technically, but it may be possible to make a combat emulator and a new content engine. That's something that can be perfectly legal and technically possible (although I would not expect to see results until a year or two from now, assuming heavy work on the volunteer team.)

Once you get there, though, you are back at the point where only those that already have the data can legally use it. There can’t, legally, be a growing player base. Also to note is that even if the server was to hold copyrighted material, a player connecting to it would not be liable for it and for all cases I seen, would not be committing any crime. The ones hosting the server that holds copyright material, though, may be in trouble.

Despite any legal or non-legal state of any approach that is taken, it’s very likely NCSoft will indeed threaten with legal action. It’s a default action any corporation takes, not because they are right but because they know threat of lawsuits and their cost alone are enough to get away with whatever they want.

At the end of the day I think that effort is better spent creating something entirely new. A lot of feeling may be recaptured by reusing a few age old assets… many assets in the base game (mainly music and sounds) were licensed by Cryptic. You may have heard CoH distinctive music in TV Spots in the past.

PS: This is assuming US laws. Other countries and regions may be very different.

You might notice, I never said legal or illegal, other than referring to the litigation arm of NC.

I am well aware of the various unknowns in the software field for who might really 'own' or 'rent' what is at hand. I am the IT Director and ISO for a software company, it is part of my job to be informed.

However, pretty much anything, here in the US, in this arena is still up in the air with regards to legal precedent. Cases fall on both sides, with really specific things being argued.

And, as discussed above, the best one might hope for is a ruling in favor of "I own my copy".

However, that's not my entire point, really.

The point is, if NC chooses to squash what it can be seen as an infringement, chances are that will end it.

If someone want to create a game like CoH and market it, that would be great! I would probably buy it myself.

But the entire 'emulator' idea is a slippery slope in terms of being viable in any long term. Additionally, it gives false hope, IMO.

And, frankly, IMO the only thing NC did in this case that could in any way be considered 'wrong' (at least at a 'moral' level) was to fire so many people without much notice. If they gave them anything decent in the way of severance, then even that 'wrong' becomes debatable. We live in tough times, companies close. Some think it was just a bad business more in general, some don't. I think Windows 8 is a bad business move, some don't.

So, to have all this petulant bickering over the game itself is laughable to me. It's ending. It was a great run, even though I mourn it's passing. To allow something such as an MMO closing it's doors overwhelm anyone to where it has for some is unhealthy at best. Possibly terribly destructive, even at a financial level not just an emotional one, if too many follow a bad idea.

That's what has me concerned. TonyV and his 'fellows' leading others into something harmful. You don't have to agree with me, it's my opinion.

.....So now TonyV and co are Pied Pipers, leading us all astray into "something harmful"? An attempt to emulate or even create a new game might be "terribly destructive"? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh.

Like we're all three years old or something. And like NCSoft didn't just Terribly, Destructively kill CoX dead. There is some real destruction for you.

Those of you who want to move on, seeing all this as unimportant should do just that - move on.

I'm sorry, this is a blanket response from NCwest.

If the response isn't from NCsoft Korea, then the pressure isn't being felt.

You know, I'd never had a thread nuked before a few weeks ago. I had a thread with some sound advice and ideas based on experience. The thread got nuked. I took it as a hint.

I've mailed things to NCSoft, I've written open letters all over the Internet, I've attended rallies. NCSoft said "No." And yet, I'm just as proud of the fight to #SaveCoH as I'd be if we'd won. Why? Because heroes don't fight battles only when its a foregone conclusion that they'll win. I'm proud of the fighting spirit that many of us turned out to have in us. You all know who you are. I bet some of you surprised yourselves--and NCSoft.

I'm going to enjoy these final days of City of Heroes by playing the game. Not saving it from NCSoft. Not avenging it. No more calling NCSoft doodooheads. Just teaming up with friends, and saving Paragon City and Primal Earth from groups like the Fifth Column, Crey, and the Circle of Thorns.

But I will say this, and it's all I'll say on the matter, here or anywhere else while the game is still breathing. You can't know if you'll get something in the mail from legal. You can only know how you'll react to it. Phrases like, "We'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it" are an invitation to legal. Meditate on things for a while and you'll see why. If a publisher's legal department believes a cease and desist will send your emulator team scattering, you'll be giving them no reason not to send one. A cease and desist is just a form letter and postage is cheap.

But--and please heed this warning, Tony--there's a difference between openly holding your ground and spitting in the publisher's direction while saying "bring it." If you're not willing to hold your ground, you might as well not even begin; holding your ground in this case meaning contingency plans for dissemination of your code into the wild in the event of a worst-case scenario. This should always be about the longevity of the emulator, and fans playing the game for years into the future, and not necessarily the longevity of your team's investment in it. Right?

Most importantly, have some class and respect. You ought to never forget that NCSoft made this all possible. The moment you allow your community members to bash NCSoft anywhere near the vicinity of your emulator is the moment when you'll deserve a cease and desist as far as I'm concerned.