Have to admit it . . . GW2 may replace COH for me

OK, I wasn't going to buy Guild Wars 2 because I don't like it as a game, but if it will put me in direct opposition to that kind of hate, then I might consider it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

It's not that people try to twist your words and make you look like a hater. This right here? This is the kind of bigotry filth that make me glad you're never going to talk to me again.

Good riddance.

Any valid point you were trying to make just got shot to **** with this statement.

Yeah, this right here is the problem. Who are you to judge people and call out moral fibre? All you're doing is emotional blackmail. "If you REALLY loved City of Heroes, you wouldn't buy from NCsoft!" "If you had any morality, you wouldn't buy from NCsoft!" "Honk if you love Jesus!" Call it hate, call it pity, call it what you will, you have contempt for people who don't conform to your very specific views on morality.

I hate - yes, "hate" - the practice of drawing people into your own anger masked as righteous retribution, and then chastising them for not doing it. I had a very fierce debate with a friend of mine who insisted that if I do business with Sony, I deserve Anonymous to steal my credit card information and post it on the Internet for people to empty my bank account. It's guilt by association all over again, and that's not righteous. It's petty.

If you want people to sympathise with your moral position, then don't come off from a self-righteous stance that everyone who doesn't feel the same way is some weakling worthy only of contempt. Even if I were one - and I have long since lost my ability to be shamed over the Internet - then I'm certainly not going to see things your way for saying this. And I get the the impression you don't want me to see things your way.

You know what the funniest part is, though? I don't actually want Guild Wars 2, and I can play it for free on a friend's account. I still don't, because I don't like the game. But if it will put me in a position contrary to your own, then yes - I will throw away $50 just to spite you. Because to me, the principle of respecting the decisions of others and their right to freedom of preference is more important than saving $50. Because the thinly-masked hate speak you're propagating - and that's what it is, really - is much worse to me than NCsoft or even losing City of Heroes.

Yes, seriously. To me, City of Heroes stands for imagination, creativity and friendship, and I refuse to use antagonisation, shaming and bullying to save it. Maybe that makes me simply a hater of another kind, but I'm fine with it. I refuse to hold people responsible for not taking a moral stance with their free time and entertainment, and I refuse to assert that any player has a "duty" of any kind. We do what we can with the people we have, and we respect the rights of others to look after themselves.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

In nearly 20 years of online gaming, I can't recall anyone ever taking the pretendy fun-time game this seriously before. ... Congratulations?

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

For you to be claiming moral high ground here is suspect... at best. There is nothing immoral, or even selfish about choosing a different form of entertainment. Buying GW2 has a net zero impact on the success of this game or it's movement by the community to save itself.

What it does do, is help ArenaNet and it's devs succeed... and regrettably it adds money to the coffers of a company that at best made a business decision we don't like and at worst has utter contempt for the West in general (which I have no grounds to really believe at this point... though it does seem somewhat plausible).

Furthermore, your position in this amounts to spite, and little more. There is no practical gain by not buying Guild Wars, for you or anyone else who plays CoH. The fact that you seem to claim this as a moral issue is laughable. The fact that this decision makes you feel better somehow... to have "done something" is what it is, and I can't fault you for that. What I can fault you for is pretending that it is the only logical and even moral choice to make by anyone who plays CoH, as if it is the only "responsible" choice.

Sam, that is exactly what I was thinking... except I actually was toying with the idea of getting GW2... mostly because one of my CoH buddies was gifted a copy and I thought it might be fun to still play a game with him.

I have no issue with the stance, I have an issue with it being presented as a moral imperative by some folks. It isn't. And I don't think anyone is arguing that you shouldn't make up your own mind... because you should.

What is being argued against is the idea that anyone who makes a different choice should be vilified. They should not be.

(To be clear, from what I have seem, Cap, you are not doing any of those things.)

Precisely. I don't like people being vilified and demonised for any reason aside from actual crimes. Live and let live. All you're doing by chastising people for their choices and beliefs is to turn them against you, and then it becomes an entrenched "us vs. them" slap-fight in which no-one wins. I'm as guilty as anyone for all too easily and all too willingly choosing to "play the bad guy" when one seems called for, so I can share part of the blame, but please understand that I do when I feel provoked, and the only times I feel provoked is when people skip addressing an argument and address ME personally.

Basically, shred my argument all you want. That's part of the point of having a discussion. Just keep behind the line of PERSONAL remarks, even indirectly made. That's really all my argument ever was - I'd spend money to spite a position I find unfair and aggressive, but I don't claim to know the person behind it. It's simply a cause I want nothing to do with.

I guess the biggest lesson I want to walk away with is to not draw global conclusions on a person's broader worth as a human being based on limited understanding of their actions without even considering the reasoning or thought process behind them. Because then ******** like me will take you up on it, act like what you're describing on purpose and turn it into a flamewar.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I've seen it. I've also seen other sunsets. Lines get drawn in the sand, some that stay drawn, many that soften over time.

It's that last part that I'm writing to you about, Atlantea. I recognize the frustration you feel when you see people giving money to the publisher who will cut this game and community down before its time. But you MUST be content to take pride in those who boycott NCSoft alongside you, and respect the minds of those who won't. I don't just mean a token amount of respect. I can tell you're impassioned, but I can also tell your heart's in the right place, so believe me when I say you'll probably come around to this frame of mind later. And I'll still be here alongside you. Whatever mistakes we make now should be forgivable in advance, folks. It's a tough moment for us all.

My decision not to support NCSoft's bad business behavior will help me sleep better at night, and anyone who challenges me here will find an immovable target; and I'll gladly continue to encourage people to stand alongside me, but if they won't? These aren't all bad people you're tossing to the side--and in fact, some of them have done a great amount for City of Heroes over the years.

There are reasons why it's dangerous to draw such a hard line in the sand between yourself and others here, not the least being that it will divide you from other people who are just as well-meaning as yourself. It will also cause you to stiffen rigidly in spirit during a time when you ought to be the most open and forgiving--this is not the time to open new wounds that cannot be reached for closure later. Even people with the same moral fiber as you have many different opinions about what represents a tough moral decision--though they might share the same caliber of morality, where they pick and fight their moral battles can be very different. And in every case, a person makes these decisions alone, for themselves.

Some of the most instrumental people in helping to resurrect Earth and Beyond and its community did NOT join my boycott of EA that lasted for nearly a decade. I suspect the same would happen if we, the players of City of Heroes, are forced into a similar circumstance. We will need each other regardless, and our common purpose WILL outweigh any other nuanced detail.

At this point I think I trust your judgement more than my own. If you think I've taken it too far, then I apologize. To you and the others. I'm sorry.

Just had to comment on this particularly funny statement.

To go out of your way to literally blacklist people from yourself just because they don't spend their money the way you do is...uhg, I don't even think I want to say.

It's one thing to dislike someone wasting their money on self destructive things like drugs, gambling or some such when their family or other people in the world are in need of that money...but you're talking about a GAME.

Now I'm not belittling CoH to only being some childish game or waste of time but some people need perspective. You tell me where you get the nerve to decide how other people spend their money. Their money that they bus tables, work overtime on oil rigs or risking their lives overseas working for the military.

If you've let yourself be poisoned by your own grudge as to do any sort of blacklisting just because someone (me being one of those someones) spent their money they worked for how they want to then you've let NCsoft do way worse than killing some game and firing their staff on the spot. Bigots, racists and generally people fueled by hate are the evil that make this world an unpleasant place. Do you really want to join their ranks?

You can't run around in AP at 35 expecting to receive xp. By relevancy, I mean that at no point you are forced to play through an area because it's the only one in your level range.

If you pitied someone, you don't shun them and reject their name. You also don't put a knife in their hand and accuse them of stabbing you in the back.

If you pitied someone, you'd enlighten them while keeping yourself morally upstanding. You can do that by reminding people what they are doing and not doing so yourself.

I understand what stance you (and others like you) take. Me? I'm not so much beholden to what games I play by what company produces it. Because I haven't played many games in years so I'll just enjoy what I can when I can rather than shut my eyes to gaming.

I still love and support CoH but regardless of if the game lives or dies, I'll be moving on (at least to the point of me playing other stuff). I don't see why that makes me some backstabber. I'm sure after a couple months, I'll drop GW2 for something else (looking toward Square even though they burned me so many years ago).

It is a public forum, but I feel it necessary to give perspective. Because while I can give a nod to Cap-Elec's posts, they don't do anything to provide perspective in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not judging anyone. You want to organize a boycott and you have my moral support...until your decisions start telling me where not to put my dollar. I don't know you well enough to let you influence that. There are people in the community that might, but they aren't telling me to boycott anything and don't feel beholden to decisions made on a business level but rather a design level (i.e. ArenaNet).

I'm in the same boat as you here but fortunately for booth of us we can still enjoy the game and continue to financially boycott NCSoft because GW2 allows us to convert the ingame currency we earn from playing the game into Gems that are needed to buy items from their cash shop.

I respectfully disagree on this. While legitimate players like you and I wouldn't abuse the system, the auto-exemplaring feature is keeping the griefers and RMTers from spawn camping lower zones and being an all around PITA. I'm sure you can think of a couple games where this still happens.

So IMHO the lack of harrassment far outweighs any annoyance it causes.

Right. But I'm not laying into her. If I were, I'd be calling her names or laughing in her face. If you don't understand the severity of hate and what it can do, you don't have the perspective enough to talk down someone who's at that state. Saying 'I know how you feel and it'll go away' only goes so far (if anywhere at all).

Once you find real perspective, you start to hear more about what goes on and why or how. It stops being about what grudges you keep with you but how your decisions affect you and those around you.

Cool story, bro. Listen, I've got to go to work. Wish we could just type about this all morning long, but you should probably be checking the Titan Network's Calls to Action instead, anyway. You know, that thing we're all trying to do. Saving City of Heroes. I promise you LOTS of forum debates if we succeed, but first things first, okay?

Right, I have been trying to keep up with TN:CtA but ya know, school, work has been killing me and I finally get *A* day off so getting a chance to do what I enjoyed most when CoH wasn't in danger: posting on the boards.

Don't know why I can't do both (check TN and post on the boards)...

This is quite unfair. Atlantea came out and said some very judgmental and harsh things to everyone. Yes, apology is accepted but you can't expect people to just turn off and not be wounded and annoyed at her words.

Also it doesn't make much sense to get upset for someone laying into another person when you are doing the very same thing. You are calling into question Leo's character and calling us an "unforgiving peanut gallery" Not understanding why it's okay for you to talk that way but not others?

Giving apologies is important and accepting them is even more so. But you can't take back the damage that words can do it takes time to heal from them and trust has to be earned back.

As far as GW2 is concerned....GW2 is not just NCsoft. Like I mentioned before GW2 has people just like those from Paragon Studios making it, creating it and enjoying their work. They have their own Positron and War Witch. NCsoft is just the money machine not the developing team. When I heard Andy speak on his last show he made it sound like everyone had friends from other games, he had friends from Cryptic. Andy mentioned the job fairs that were being held for Paragon Studios, so if you boycott games you end up boycotting some of those individual people because they all end up being friends and knowing each other in the industry.

Besides if some people from Paragon Studios got a job that paid really well working for GW2 or some other NCsoft game would we deny them that and make them feel like backstabbers?

I just want to say how much I admire you right now, Sam. Even though I disagree with you more often than not, you're a class act.

*fistbump*