NCsoft is NOT our enemy
Yeah, while the "NCSoft sucks!" attiude is understandable when emotions are running high, it's important to remember that this is a totally out of the blue U-turn on their previouly supportive policy towards the game - and they had such confidence in the developers that they even green lit a new MMO from them, so something has clearly happened within NCSoft very recently to make them change that attitude.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Sorry Tony, but I disagree.
Sure, NCSoft have done a lot for us; but last Friday, our good buddy snuck up behind us, and stabbed us in the back.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
well said tony, while i agree that ncsoft HAS helped city of heroes prosper in the past, like FFM says they did up and sudden decided stab us in the back
with the lack of information regarding why its not setting them in a good light for the time being
with the information we do know as you have pointed out coh was prospering, and then for seemingly no reason ncsoft decided to pull the plug
backstabbing is not cool (except in the case of tf2, im sure everyone needed that laugh), and if ncosft was a little more public about what is going on then im sure people could potentially forgive them, but they have played russian roulette with our trust one too many times and many poeple feel that they cant be forgiven with this
![](http://i.imgur.com/90o12.jpg?1)
Yeah, while the "NCSoft sucks!" attiude is understandable when emotions are running high, it's important to remember that this is a totally out of the blue U-turn on their previouly supportive policy towards the game - and they had such confidence in the developers that they even green lit a new MMO from them, so something has clearly happened within NCSoft very recently to make them change that attitude.
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To use the child analogy: Yes, NCSoft adopted us, nurtured us, and stuck by us through hard times, but (without further public details) it appears they just threw up their hands, said, "That's it, I can't take it any more" and put us out on the street. A child whose parent abandons them, especially after the parent spent years "being there," has every right to some negative feelings towards said parent.
If they come out and fix the situation, via selling off the game to keep it going or some other solution, our feelings will probably change. But this sudden kick to the curb is not going to fly.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
![](http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i382/Winterminal/Talsorian-BannerGrey.png)
This is something I can't agree on, Tony. In my case, I've already had to experience this entire situation when NCSoft killed off other games, and I've seen the lengths NCSoft will go to take down a game they own.
Maybe the reason City of Heroes is getting killed off is because the managers and executives who would have stood by this game are no longer in the company or in positions of influence. Or maybe it's because Nexon's been putting pressure on NCSoft now that they have a majority stake in the company. The exact rationale for NCSoft deciding that City of Heroes no longer fits in their picture may never be known to us, but this is still a game that's been going for eight years and, all things being equal, could have kept going on its own revenue.
There's a big chance we'll never be able to play this game again, especially if NCSoft treats the City of Heroes IP like it does other games it's taken down, like Tabula Rasa.
I am not going to be spending any more money on NCSoft games, that's for darn sure. I said before I don't plan on sending NCSoft reps any nastygrams ... but I've seen how ugly the company can get, and now that they're taking this game down I don't want to be their customer any more.
All respect to you, Tony. You are a classy guy, and I put my chips on your number to lead us through this crisis now.
Everything points towards office politics and some kind of internal power struggle or reorganization at NCSoft - like the "CoH friendly" execs who were happy to support the game for all thse years and green light a new MMO from the studio have, because of NCSoft's curent financial state, been removed and replaced by execs looking to make cuts.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Yeah, while the "NCSoft sucks!" attiude is understandable when emotions are running high, it's important to remember that this is a totally out of the blue U-turn on their previouly supportive policy towards the game - and they had such confidence in the developers that they even green lit a new MMO from them, so something has clearly happened within NCSoft very recently to make them change that attitude.
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I will still have my memories of the dog when it was more amenable, but my attitude toward it will be driven by current behavior, not nostalgia.
The past is gone, and NCSoft are presently destroying my online home.
If they want my good opinion they must radically revise their current behavior.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Yeah, while the "NCSoft sucks!" attiude is understandable when emotions are running high, it's important to remember that this is a totally out of the blue U-turn on their previouly supportive policy towards the game - and they had such confidence in the developers that they even green lit a new MMO from them, so something has clearly happened within NCSoft very recently to make them change that attitude.
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It happened. It's a fait accompli. I'm pleased that the rednames are allowed to keep posting as such, I'm pleased that they're keeping the forums up and running for a while so we can say goodbye, organize other places to meet and even what to do to try to keep it going. If NCSoft acts responsibly to the users until the game shuts down, I can live with this. (If NCSoft makes some sort of buyout or other transfer so the game can live on, I'll say very good things about them.)
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
If a dog that has previously been pleasant and friendly suddenly starts growling and biting, my attitude toward that dog will immediately change.
I will still have my memories of the dog when it was more amenable, but my attitude toward it will be driven by current behavior, not nostalgia. The past is gone, and NCSoft are presently destroying my online home. If they want my good opinion they must radically revise their current behavior. |
I'm only ladylike when compared to my sister.
This is something I can't agree on, Tony. In my case, I've already had to experience this entire situation when NCSoft killed off other games, and I've seen the lengths NCSoft will go to take down a game they own.
Maybe the reason City of Heroes is getting killed off is because the managers and executives who would have stood by this game are no longer in the company or in positions of influence. Or maybe it's because Nexon's been putting pressure on NCSoft now that they have a majority stake in the company. The exact rationale for NCSoft deciding that City of Heroes no longer fits in their picture may never be known to us, but this is still a game that's been going for eight years and, all things being equal, could have kept going on its own revenue. |
We have to be poised to pounce on that opportunity, should it arise.
I don't know if this has been posted, but I found this:
http://unsubject.wordpress.com/2012/...e-world-event/
It's bitter, and unpleasant... and most likely why Paragon and Co* got the axe. Sigh.
"Let your plans be dark and as impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt." --Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Sorry Tony, but I disagree.
Sure, NCSoft have done a lot for us; but last Friday, our good buddy snuck up behind us, and stabbed us in the back. |
NCsoft could have done what typically happens when MMOs dry up and die. They could have laid off a bunch of people, cut costs to the bone, and let the game linger in maintenance for several more years, bleeding whatever profits might be left in it, and then when it got in the red, scattered what developers and other personnel were left to the winds, either by laying them off or allocating them to other projects. At that point, City of Heroes would have absolutely zero economic value to anyone. No game studio would touch it, and it would have been permanently gone to everyone.
Instead, given that they wanted the resources for other projects, they did something radical: In one fell swoop, they let EVERYONE go. All at once. 80+ people, suddenly without a job and needing something to do. 80+ people who are all pretty good friends or at least acquaintances, who keep in touch with each other, who have a proven track record of developing a popular game with success. They didn't disperse them, bleed a few out at a time, no. They effectively took every single role it requires to make a new game studio--designers, programmers, artists, writers, managers, marketers, community relations, administrative assistants, business planners, accountants--and suddenly released them to do, you know, whatever it is 80+ people that just happen to all be part of a cohesive and successful unit might do if they suddenly had a lot of time on their hands and an immense amount of motivation to quickly engage in something productive.
I'm also speculating that said company who released those 80+ people needs resources for other projects. Some of those "resources" might include an influx of cash that can be used to quickly fund other projects. If only NCsoft had something lying around collecting dust, something monetarily valuable, something that, if the timing is right, someone might be interested in acquiring for a reasonable fee, then wow, that would make them look good. Not only do they get the influx of resources needed for their other projects, but they also still will be forever associated with whatever that thing might be that they created and grew and then, when the time was right, wisely spun off to flourish on its own. And holy crap, when that came to pass, people would be incredibly happy and full of gratitude.
Again, speculation, but I actually think that NCsoft might be a lot more shrewd than anyone here is giving them credit for.
But all of that speculation aside, one thing I'm certain of is that they are a very intelligent company, and people should treat them with the respect they deserve. Even if November is the end of the line, I could never repay them for the eight and half years of fun they've made possible, the friends I've made, the skills I've learned, and the imagination they've fostered.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
Everything points towards office politics and some kind of internal power struggle or reorganization at NCSoft - like the "CoH friendly" execs who were happy to support the game for all thse years and green light a new MMO from the studio have, because of NCSoft's curent financial state, been removed and replaced by execs looking to make cuts.
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I still think the most likely answer is that someone with the clout to do so (major shareholder like Nexxon, major debt holder) said "You will take decisive action and you will take it now, or someone else will be holding your job who will." And as much as they have invested in CoH and are friendly to it, the numbers make it clear that if there is going to be a sacrificial lamb, the lamb's got a cape on it.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
While we do have reason to be thankful to NCSoft in the past, what they have just done (more to the staff than to us, although taking subs money then closing the servers down before the subs run out without a true emergency is morally fraud in my book) is so far beyond the pale and lacking any class that it is difficult to react with anything other than anger.
I agree that we have to try to deal with them in order to try to get our game back, and while I very much hope that happens, it doesn't mean I have to like them or buy any of their other games.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
But all of that speculation aside, one thing I'm certain of is that they are a very intelligent company, and people should treat them with the respect they deserve. Even if November is the end of the line, I could never repay them for the eight and half years of fun they've made possible, the friends I've made, the skills I've learned, and the imagination they've fostered.
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
In the short term I think a lot of attitudes will depend on how their next statement reads - i.e. where they lay out the 'detailed timeline' for the shutdown, how accounts paid past November will be handled, and so on. I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been one already, but it'll make interesting reading when it does come.
In the long term it will all depend on whether they are willing to even discuss giving up the IP.
I just wish we'd get some more solid information about why they decided to do this. I've no doubt it'll come out eventually, but if NCsoft care at all about their PR it's surely in their interest to say something - if only to avoid the most negative rumours and theories spiralling out of control.
I just wish we'd get some more solid information about why they decided to do this. I've no doubt it'll come out eventually, but if NCsoft care at all about their PR it's surely in their interest to say something - if only to avoid the most negative rumours and theories spiralling out of control.
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The superhero genre isn't really a thing in Korea, so there's very little chance of it even getting noticed there, much less succeeding. Since they no longer seem concerned about much beyond their own home nation's borders anymore, you'd think maybe they could have been nice and sold CoH to someone interested in continuing development of it. But they didn't. They just cut it off like so much ballast.
So at this point I wouldn't care if it took something like NCSoft going bankrupt and having to liquidate all of its assets, if that's what it took to get City of Heroes from them. They may have been good to us once, but their most recent action has corrupted those memories. If they really did care about us, even a little bit, they'd give this game back to us in one way or another. I'd like to hope they would do that, but I'm not convinced that they will.
Well, all I can think of is this:
If NCsoft allows the game to go on in some form, whether it be a buyout from another company or whatever, I'll be annoyed at the way they handled this, but not actively against them.
If the game goes down, I'm going to want to see NCsoft burn. Yes, I have a strong vengeful streak.
Not to mention, if NCsoft refuses to sell the game, and NCSoft does burn, someone might pick it up in the fire sale of their assets.
Of course, other efforts for now. Burning only if all those fail.
Culex's resistance guide
NCSoft are nothing but a bunch of bean counters. They provided the cash to run the game, but they're just enablers. The ones who ACTUALLY did all you say, are the dev team. Starting with Cryptic and ending with Paragon Studios. THEY are the ones who deserve respect. More so now because although we got knifed in the back, THEY got shot in the face.
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Like Soylent Green, NCsoft is people. They have thoughts, emotions, plans, needs and wants, just like everyone else. Why are they specifically in the gaming industry instead of some other more lucrative industry? Obviously because gaming and the gamer culture means something to them beyond mere dollars and won. Dehumanizing them as "a bunch of bean counters" is insulting, and I really hope that the community steps it up a notch.
Okay, maybe Soylent Green is a bad example. I'm working on a total of around eight hours of sleep for the past three days and trying to at least pay nominal attention to my day job while I type this, cut me some slack.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
E
I still think the most likely answer is that someone with the clout to do so (major shareholder like Nexxon, major debt holder) said "You will take decisive action and you will take it now, or someone else will be holding your job who will." |
-Lisa.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
Really? Because when I met Katie at the Player Summit, she sure didn't seem like a bean counter to me. When she was singing karaoke with us, weirdly enough, I didn't see any knives being surreptitiously plunged into any rib cages.
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Brighton office.
NCSoft used to have a mid-sized office in the UK, in the coast town of Brighton. The staff there were GREAT! They really pushed the game as hard as they could, they ran great player events, organised meet ups (several of which I went to), they ran regular competitions on the forums, and they TALKED to us.
Then one day, they went in to the office and were greeted with something similar to what Paragon Studios faced on Friday morning. Most of them were fired (not on the spot, due to UK employment law, but as fast as they could manage).
Avatea used to be one of our community reps; she was lucky, she was able to relocate to the US and work with the Paragon Studio's people for a while, but for the rest? Unemployment.
They did similar things to Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa, Exsteel and several other of their MMO's. They have a LOT of previous to condemn them, so please, stop talking like the sun shines out of their seating areas. They're a business, period, and a very ruthless one at that. The instant they see one of their properties as a liability, they execute it on the spot and to hell with the players and the employees.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Hey all, I just wanted to take some time to (hopefully) quell some frustration and yes, even anger, at NCsoft. Apologies in advance for the book, but I've just got to lay it all out on the table. I'll also be communicating this directly to contacts within NCsoft in a much more succinct form and ask you to try to share my frame of mind in your communications.
Without NCsoft, there would be no City of Heroes. I think it's important to put a little historical context behind the company as it relates to our game. The creators of City of Heroes pitched their idea to NCsoft at a time relatively early in the age of MMORPGs. It was at least 2001, maybe even 2000 when the idea of a superhero-themed MMO was concocted. At that time, the only MMOs that really had any steam were fantasy-based MMOs, things like Ultima Online and Everquest.
When NCsoft green-lit City of Heroes, they were really taking a bold chance. MMORPGs were a niche industry relegated mostly to what were perceived by the mainstream as geeks in their parents' basements. Would it make money? Maybe not, but they rolled the dice anyway, they took a chance and provided the necessary funding to make it happen.
It was at least three years before the game came to fruition and launched. Take a second and think about that. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to fund even a small team of developers, artists, designers, writers, and other people needed to develop a game like City of Heroes for three years? Millions of dollars, from a company that, at the time, was virtually unheard of and was much smaller than it is today. If City of Heroes flopped, it may very well have bankrupted NCsoft. But you know what? They rolled the dice anyway. They scraped up the funding to make City of Heroes happen. Without their scrappiness and faith in the game's founders, all of these posts and discussions wouldn't be happening today.
When City of Heroes launched, it did pretty well in the marketplace. A lot of players latched onto it immediately and became the core fan base that is still with the game today. But just a short six months later in November 2004, one of the most well-funded games launched to a lot of publicity and fanfare. World of Warcraft had finally arrived. Comparing Blizzard to NCsoft is like comparing McDonald's to your local mom 'n pop burger hole in the wall. Blizzard had poured money into WoW's development like an open spigot. They threw millions at slick marketing campaigns. They rented acres of space at conventions, held flashy parties for fans and the media, hired Mr. T, Aubrey Plaza, Ozzy Osbourne, and other famous personalities to pitch their game.
NCsoft was now fighting frickin' Chuck Norris. Who the hell wants to fight Chuck Norris? The answer: NCsoft. In spite of all of the hoopla and what had to be a bit depressing news of watching World of Warcraft's subscriber numbers climb past 10 million under the blitz of vast sums of money and media coverage, did NCsoft back down? HELL NO! They doubled down! They coughed up yet another round of funding and developed City of Villains, which launched in October 2005. And you know what? IT WORKED. Back when MMORPG companies used to publish their subscriber numbers because investors demanded it, City of Heroes reached a peak in the fourth quarter of 2005. Remember, this was when World of Warcraft was also at its strongest. City of Heroes (and Villains!) was not just surviving, it was thriving in the face of one of the most incredible corporate challenges ever.
Shortly after that, we lost several of our key developers. Jack Emmert who, more than anyone else, was the Founding Father of the game, left. As did Zeb Cook, who spearheaded City of Villains. Some even created games to compete directly with City of Heroes in the very genre that NCsoft paid dearly to create. Subscriber numbers started lagging. The studio was left in the hands of people who were inexperienced at running such a large project. It's probably time to start winding things down and go into maintenance mode until the game goes into the red and they kill it off, right? HELL NO!!! They doubled down again! They put their full faith and confidence in Matt Miller and Melissa Bianco who at the time, while nice folks to be sure, on paper were probably ill-equipped to run the development of a project anything close to the magnitude of City of Heroes.
NCsoft didn't just sit on our hard-earned $15 per month, they continually reinvested it. They funded this crazy notion that Mac players might enjoy a popular MMO. They paid to fly developers, marketing reps, community relations folks, artists, and others around the country to events like Comic-Con, PAX, PAX East, various meet-and-greets, and others I'm probably forgetting. They paid to rent rooms at hotels and event venues and funded Hero-Cons and Player Summits. They funded the development of yet another expansion, Going Rogue. When Paragon Studios came to them and said, "Hey, we want to change our entire financial model to something that is new, kind of risky and largely untested, but we think it will make us stronger," did they become complacent and stifle a weird new innovation that would let players consume valuable company resources without even paying if they don't want to? HELL NO! They doubled down yet again, gave the green light, and put their faith in Brian Clayton, Ross Borden, and others who boldly charged forward.
After all of that, do you honestly think that NCsoft is shutting down City of Heroes because they want to? Do you honestly think they've poured millions into the game just because, well, it seemed like a good idea at the time? Do you honestly think that NCsoft is just a heartless collective of accountants, managers, HR people, and even a CEO that didn't agonize over this decision, who, for whatever reason, thinks that cutting Paragon Studios was essential to the company's well being, maybe even survival? Just like Paragon Studios is the spiritual child of Matt Miller, Melissa Bianco, Brian Clayton, and so many others, NCsoft is the spiritual child of Taek Jin Kim, and I assure you that the last thing that he or any other person at NCsoft is out to do is to take food off the tables of our Paragon Studios friends or to alienate a strong community of gamers. Not only does that not make sense, but I genuinely fear that going forward in that mindset is THE most poisonous thing I can think of to our efforts to save Paragon City.
Guys, to paraphrase Sigmund Freud, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. NCsoft isn't just City of Heroes, it is also Guild Wars. It is also Lineage. It is also Aion. They said that City of Heroes no longer fits in the long-term goals of their company. Typically, this means that they have projects that need resources, resources currently being consumed by Paragon Studios and City of Heroes. Maybe it's not money. Maybe it is money but indirectly, such as the ability to borrow enough to fund something else, but not being able to because of their commitments to Paragon Studios if it remains under their umbrella. They need those resources, and while I know how much this game means to you all, it's really unfair for us to ask NCsoft to sacrifice their long-term goals for us, not after they have sacrificed so much and taken so many chances on us.
However...
If you read their statement, it clearly says, "the continued support of the franchise no longer fits within our long term goals for the company." (Emphasis mine.) I really want people to pay attention to how they haven't precluded the possibility that someone else could take up the banner of City of Heroes, and I am very hopeful and optimistic that this is exactly what might happen. Perhaps Paragon Studios and City of Heroes is more like a child than we imagine. Since birth, NCsoft has been our loving and caring parent. They have given us the resources we need to be successful and to build a community that is caring and strong, and we are eternally grateful. No matter what happens, for eight and a half years, NCsoft has been directly responsible for a great deal of my own personal growth. In creating the Paragon Wiki and managing the Titan Network, I have gained technical and management skills I never would have had were it not for their support. If it weren't for NCsoft's greatness, I wouldn't be spearheading an effort to save Paragon City. Aside from the fact that there wouldn't be a Paragon City to save, I would have spent the past eight and a half years probably being a couch potato, completely unmotivated to try to make any kind of difference like I am now.
NCsoft is not our enemy. Apathy is our enemy, because as long as we care about Paragon Studios and City of Heroes as much as we do, I honestly believe that NCsoft would love for us to succeed. If City of Heroes stays afloat and continues to be successful, it won't just be a testament to our community and the staff of Paragon Studios. It will be a testament to NCsoft who took a chance in 2001, who risked so much and dedicated so much to making our community so great. I ask you all to please remember this when you post messages, write e-mails, write letters, or represent our community in any other way. We aren't fighting NCsoft, we are asking them to do what they have always done: to do what it takes to create and support a thriving community.
To NCsoft: Right now, with the decisions you make in the coming days and weeks, this is your chance to join with us. This is your chance to experience what we have, what it's like to be a hero, having people looking up to you with gratitude pouring forth and saying with one unified voice, "Thank you for saving us!"
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)