Nalrok's Really Fast Coffee Talk Writeup
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-11 11:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It.. is though? It's turning the power into the exact opposite. it's like taking a blast power and turning it into a heal. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
But it's not a cottage rule violation.
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But honestly, the fact they're changing it probably speaks to how few people took it. It wouldn't surprise me if it was less than one percent of one percent of the player populace.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Cottage_Rule
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Changing a Taunt to a Placate does indeed change the core functionality of the power. It is a breaking of the Cottage Rule.| An existing power will not have its core functionality and purpose changed, though its strength may be altered and effects secondary to the power's true purpose may be added or removed. |
However, I think that in this case, it is warranted, and will break very few, if any, builds.
@Roderick
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Isn't Placate simply a negative version of the Taunt value? The ATs that want to taunt can already taunt whilst those that want to dump aggro will now have something to give them the option of doing so.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Enlighten me how that is the case, then.
Taunt != Placate. They are fundamentally different. |
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Actually I think he was more saying that changing the single target taunt into a placate is the violation... as in it's changing one power into something that does something totally different. And while THAT would be a violation, there's a broader way to look at it that I posted above that explains why it might not be.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'm not sure how you're not seeing it. newchemicals was saying that Pacify is a cottage rule violation against Placate. However, it has no hide/defense/critical bonus, so it's not the same power. This is the same for Provoke/Challenge and Taunt.
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With that said, at the end of the day if the devs want to violate the cottage rule they can do so with impunity and a lot of lube.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
Also new pool powers and crashless nukes and SQUEE and we still don't know anything about the NEW content in the issue. 24 sounds like it's going to be really scary awesome.
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No he/she wasn't. The Cottage Rule doesn't care about any other powers. It cares about changing the core functionality of the power. Changing a Taunt to a Placate violates the Cottage Rule. There is no arguing the fact, provided that the Cottage Rule is properly understood.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'm not sure how you're not seeing it. newchemicals was saying that Pacify is a cottage rule violation against Placate. However, it has no hide/defense/critical bonus, so it's not the same power. This is the same for Provoke/Challenge and Taunt.
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@Roderick
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No. Negative Taunt would do nothing, according to how Castle explained the aggro list. Placates just take you off an enemy's aggro list, and prevent you from getting put back onto it until the Placate ends, or you do something to break the Placate (ending it early).
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
Isn't Placate simply a negative version of the Taunt value? The ATs that want to taunt can already taunt whilst those that want to dump aggro will now have something to give them the option of doing so.
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@Roderick
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Ah. My bad. Brain fart|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
Actually I think he was more saying that changing the single target taunt into a placate is the violation... as in it's changing one power into something that does something totally different. And while THAT would be a violation, there's a broader way to look at it that I posted above that explains why it might not be.
With that said, at the end of the day if the devs want to violate the cottage rule they can do so with impunity and a lot of lube. |
But the power was trash anyway. *shrug* The new Blaster secondaries are already half-violating the cottage rule anyway. I don't see any reason why this change shouldn't be made.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Mmm no, adding functionality to a power while not removing any of its original functionality isn't even close. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Ah. My bad. Brain fart
But the power was trash anyway. *shrug* The new Blaster secondaries are already half-violating the cottage rule anyway. I don't see any reason why this change shouldn't be made. |
Plus, who really cares? The devs are allowed to do as they please. They follow the cottage rule as they like but there's no set in stone rules that if they violate it they will be struck down and the seas will run red. it's simply a reason why they don't change a lot of powers willy nilly but in the case of something that's truly bad and no one takes it, it's completely warranted.
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Nope.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
The new Blaster secondaries are already half-violating the cottage rule anyway.
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| An existing power will not have its core functionality and purpose changed, though its strength may be altered and effects secondary to the power's true purpose may be added or removed. |
@Roderick
Before someone like Arcanaville shows up, there isn't "A cottage rule" per se.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Mmm no, adding functionality to a power while not removing any of its original functionality isn't even close.
Plus, who really cares? The devs are allowed to do as they please. They follow the cottage rule as they like but there's no set in stone rules that if they violate it they will be struck down and the seas will run red. it's simply a reason why they don't change a lot of powers willy nilly but in the case of something that's truly bad and no one takes it, it's completely warranted. |
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Nope.
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Challenge was garbage. The change should be made and will offer far more to players than a low-grade single target taunt. That's my point. Who gives a crap what the rule is if no one's using the power to begin with?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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oh right...|
Originally Posted by Roderick
[Whirlwind] doesn't take damage enhancements, so it can't take Overwhelming Force. |
DAAAAAAAMMMMMMMNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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She's already here waiting in the shadows, simply biding her time before making a tactical mathematical strike.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Before someone like Arcanaville shows up, there isn't "A cottage rule" per say.
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Look, I hate to be that guy, but...|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Before someone like Arcanaville shows up, there isn't "A cottage rule" per say.
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per se
'through itself'
Also "by itself" or "in itself". Without referring to anything else, intrinsically, taken without qualifications, etc. A common example is negligence per se.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I still haven't done one for the inherent Fitness pool changes yet |
Originally Posted by Yoru-Hime
Wow. So many respecs...
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I'm more interested in the idea that they might be breaking the rule more often now. Sure, challenge was kinda crappy to begin with and I'm sure they had evidence to believe that it wouldn't impact that many active characters, but it's still interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing some more broad changes done to Stone, or maybe some of the AOE gimped Stalker primaries.
Well I think they also have more flexibility when it comes to changing pools than they do power sets.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Yes, but previously, the first two powers of Presence were a single target Taunt, and an AoE Taunt. Is there ever going to be a time when the Single Target Taunt is tactically superior? And does anyone ever actually TAKE that ST Taunt?
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Heeey....watch it! My SS/SA Brute has ALL of the powers in the Presence power pool!
This was back in the day when I wanted to make sure all the AVs in the LRSF were on me and not my teammates so I took more taunt powers!
The fear powers were for thematic reasons!
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
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I agree that Challenge is Garbage.
So was repulse before it it was changed to disrupt. However, its still a violation of the cottage rule.
(example) It would be like removing KB from Energy Blast and no longer allowing increase KB IOs and KB sets from being slotted into Energy blast. (/example)
Hey, I've always been an advocate of blowing up the cottage rule so we can rid ourselves of intangable powers such as Blackhole and Dimension Shift. Also, riding ourselves of PBAoE KB powers that do no damage (thus OF inelegiable) such as Hand Clap.
So what if someone had a stone tank who had taunt, provoke and challenge?
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
As for the whole cottage rule discussion, I'll use a quote from Arcanaville:
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...the devs don't technically follow anything called "the cottage rule." The cottage rule is a term made up by the players, and it persists because its catchy. As used by the devs, it means only one thing: the devs will not replace Build Up with a power that summons a cottage instead of what it does now. Anyone who wants to rescind that rule literally wants build up to summon a cottage instead of what it does not. The cottage rule example was intended to be an exemplar for a whole list of design rules the devs obey. I actually posted them almost a year before Castle's cottage post but people keep forgetting them because they are less catchy. Within the context of the cottage rule, *some of* the design rules the devs follow that are the basis for the cottage rule pronouncement are: 1. A power will not lose a primary function without a critical balance reason for that change that can only be solved by eliminating that feature. 2. A power will not alter its gameplay mechanics without a significant balance requirement that can only be solved by altering its mechanics. For the most part, this refers to the power being a click, toggle, passive, or location targeted power. 3. A power will not change its availability within a powerset without a significant balance requirement that can only be solved by such a change in powerset structure. In other words, powers won't change tier. |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Cottage "rule" or not when its broke you need to fix it.
If anyone from issue 1 o 2 remembers gravity control had Fold space for its tier 9 (basically the pre- assemble the team). It went live and was changed afterward into singularity. A team teleport and a control pet are not remotely the same thing.
This was established well before Castle, or anyones else's cottage rule was 'created'
regarding the summary so far, sounds great! look forward to trying the new fighting power on single target builds to get a bit more aoe.
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I feel you here sister. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I still haven't done one for the inherent Fitness pool changes yet
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A LOT of my toons STILL have the older build without the inherents. And these are level 50s I'm talking about. lol
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
But it's not a cottage rule violation.
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Last time I checked Challenge takes Taunt IOs and Sets
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Cottage rule violation!!
OK, not really, but it wouldn't surprise me. Even on the occasional non-melee build that wants a taunt, why would you take Challenge over Provoke? If you're pulling single targets, there are better ways, from simple blasts to Teleport Foe.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.