Quote:
Even if you're the only tank (which in my experience I can't recall a time I've ever only seen 1 on a full league - maybe some Lambdas), I doubt you're the only melee character with Taunt.|
Originally Posted by LSK
The main issue with this even on tanks, if there is no other tank or brute then the baddies will follow the tank when u try to move out of range. I have had that happen may times when i am tanking some times even when there was other ppl that could take the aggro for me. Especially in the BAF.
|
And if you're the only one willing to use Taunt, then communicate with your team. Or don't use it, and allow others to generate more threat. But an example like the BAF is hardly Tanker specific (you're telling me no one else in those examples gets Sequestered, just you?). Either way, you're talking more about an issue of teamwork than game mechanics. That devs can't be expected to force teams to communicate more.
The end-game content was always meant to be more difficult. Some amount of adapting is to be expected. Did you really think you'd always be able to just stand next to the big baddies without thinking about your health and swinging your fists all day? That's what regular content is for.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Why not add an inherent that works 2 fold...
In solo or smaller groups, the Tank has a +dmg that increases as the group size decreases
In large groups, the taunt aura and resists get a buff as group size increases...so that somewhere around a group of say 8 you are at middle ground on both...
Though the idea would be to include league size in the calculations, so that end game content would be evened out in the formula
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
I am not saying i am the only one that gets held what i am saying is when i move away so not to get others held but when i do move even with others with taunt or others holding them they still follow me some times. Plus on your second comment i never said what u are saying nore anyone else, what we are saying is if u do stay by him u have no chance of survival with the 1 hit KO attacks lot of them have. Pay attention to what ppl are saying. Takeing damage is 1 thing where u can recover from it via greens or heal powers but u can not recover from it when u get KOed by 1 hit.
|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Even if you're the only tank (which in my experience I can't recall a time I've ever only seen 1 on a full league - maybe some Lambdas), I doubt you're the only melee character with Taunt.
And if you're the only one willing to use Taunt, then communicate with your team. Or don't use it, and allow others to generate more threat. But an example like the BAF is hardly Tanker specific (you're telling me no one else in those examples gets Sequestered, just you?). Either way, you're talking more about an issue of teamwork than game mechanics. That devs can't be expected to force teams to communicate more. The end-game content was always meant to be more difficult. Some amount of adapting is to be expected. Did you really think you'd always be able to just stand next to the big baddies without thinking about your health and swinging your fists all day? That's what regular content is for. |
Quote:
You have a point here.
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
How does making an AT that is already nigh unkillable even more nigh unkillable improve them in a meaningful way? Are people not playing Tankers because they die too much?
No. So why do they need to be tougher than they are when they're already the toughest? And why do you think that if people aren't playing Tankers despite the fact that they're the toughest, that making them tougher will change their minds? |
Quote:
The problem with this is, Let's say it's a 12-man League and I'm the only one tanking the AV, alternatively, I'm the only ice armour tanker, and the other tanker or brute on the team can't compete with my damage from KM and Soul Mastery because I've opted for Damage-increasing incarnates and I'm generating my aggro than the other tanks and players. |
Originally Posted by Rylas
Boadygaurd inherent: Like the Mastermind mechanic, but in reverse. Make it a toggle free of endurance cost. Allow a percentage of damage being taken by up to 5 teamates in a certain range be diverted to you. The damage sent to you can be resisted or avoided according to your defense and resist numbers. Taking too much heat? Turn off the toggle. The 5 teammate limit is only for your tank. So if a second tank is on the team, they too can mitigate damage for teammates, maybe even the same team members (stackable). A new unique mechanic is introduced that gives tankers something to bring to the team, and gives incentive for multiple tanks. Oh, but Tanks do not receive the benefit of being guarded by other Tanks. I'd imagine that becoming overpowered. |
But said AV has "Rings of insta-kill" that do 3k damage to me (Keyes iirc). I need to be at 3.2k health, which requires Hoarfrost to be up, which pretty much requires Hasten and some +recharge buffs on me too. I can take that hit and survive, 90+% of the single-target damage the AV is putting out is directed at me, and 5% of that damage is hitting. I'm thus pretty much likely to survive the entire fight except for a string of bad luck where that 5% roll hits after I've been reduced to 0.2k HP, or that 3k hit happens when Hoarfrost is down.
But for the majority of the fight, all aggro is on my toon, there would be no reason to use this "Bodyguard" toggle in the fight, because:
A, All the single-target damage is pointed at me.
B, I would have to detoggle this -every time- the instahit happens, otherwise I can't shrug off the damage while I'm laughing at my HP.
C, If I'm redirecting damage towards me, there's no way it'd roll for To Hit or Resists twice. Either I'm going by the original targets To Hit rolls and taking a percentage (Thus I'm taking autohit damage, which iTrials are already full of, and I wouldn't wish to take the risk while in a trial.) Or I'm going to be taking the target's To Hit rolls, which would make the whole toggle like a passive-taunt.
And a taunt where I don't need to make aggro checks, keep up damage or hit taunts to take an AVs damage, because I can just flip a switch and peoples incoming damage is just rolling onto me, is ruining the entire point of aggro/taunt. I can already stand in a middle of a mob and spam AoEs while Icicles and Chilling Embrace are ticking away, being able to just stand next to a player and take their damage is just OP.
A better alternative in my opinion would be:
Quote:
|
Bodyguard - Inherent - Passive. * Increases Teammate Resistance to X damage type by Y% per teammates/leaguemates within Z distance. Up to Q players. (Does not stack with other casters.) Alternatively that could be flipped. But that would mean that, say the numbers were X = All, Y = 5%, Z = 40yds. Q = 8. So there are 8 players nearby, a big ol' AV hits with a resistable AoE "insta-kill" attack, doing 3k damage. Tanker is HP Capped. Tanker is left with say 0.5k health. Other players around the tanker also get hit by the AoE, but instead of now being facedown in the dirt, they've taken 1.8k damage. Some of them might probably be dead at this point. Everybody heals up, tanker gets nuked and completely faceplants into the ground. Bodyguard is no longer working. AoE hits again, everybody who gets hit and has no resistance now takes 3k damage. Team wipe is inevitable. |
A, it's now a Good idea to keep the tanker alive. Tanker is alive, teammates have resists. The team can take a little more damage by staying near the tank. Teammates however can't decide to pull aggro, because they're still squishy. (Reduce Y to 2%, change X to S/L only.)
B, The tanker still has to/should hold aggro. The tanker doesn't just have to stand around and redirect damage onto itself. The Tanker has to make sure that damage goes onto itself.
C, It's now a Good idea to take multiple tankers on a team. Yes, this buff doesn't stack, but it stops working when the tanker is dead. TPN run, tanker gets marked for death, doesn't notice, doesn't get out of the way. Bodyguard passive drops. Tanker number 2's bodyguard kicks in. The team is still protected.
Obviously this is just a quick draft idea, but I tried to take as much from your "Bodyguard" idea as I could and work it in a way that I'd see as more usable/balanced.
Tankers are then not doing more damage, nor are they more survivable, but they're now providing an extra support role in teams.
Im convinced the only way to fix Tankers is to modify their secondaries, and then, it has to be something only on the tanker side of things and doesnt map over to brutes and other ats.
And it all starts with Taunt. That power needs to be given the same treatment the various i24 "blaster sustains" are being created with.
Have the taunt still do its current task, but also have it do something else.
Personally, I'd like to see the Tanker move over into a Debuff/Control melee style, with the secondary effects on tanker secondaries altered so they're a core part of the power functionality, instead of a tacked on secondary effect. More damage would be nice, but I don't think it would salvage tankers at this point.
Basically, I think the thing to do is modify tanker secondaries to the point the tanker moves from being "Damage Sponge" to "Hybrid melee based Control/Debuffer". Damage resistance capabilities should remain unchanged, just the added control/debuff effects have a trade off of requiring melee range and being st focused, so the tanker doesn't step all over Dominators, Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, and MMs, but moves in a different direction than Stalkers, Scrappers, and Brutes.
One of these days I'll actually write up exactly what I mean using a couple of example powersets in a post, if anyone really cares to see what Im getting at.
Quote:
I've been paying attention to what's been said. And I said most of that damage (if not all of it) is avoidable. If it requires more attention on your part to avoid that, then it's hardly a game-mechanic issue when you fail to do so.
|
Originally Posted by LSK
I am not saying i am the only one that gets held what i am saying is when i move away so not to get others held but when i do move even with others with taunt or others holding them they still follow me some times. Plus on your second comment i never said what u are saying nore anyone else, what we are saying is if u do stay by him u have no chance of survival with the 1 hit KO attacks lot of them have. Pay attention to what ppl are saying. Takeing damage is 1 thing where u can recover from it via greens or heal powers but u can not recover from it when u get KOed by 1 hit.
|
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Too late right there|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Before the rumors start
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Okay, before things get taken out of context and proportion, let's just get this straight right off the bat.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
During the Dev chat today, it was mentioned that Tankers MIGHT be the next AT being looked at, and that was certainly NOT a promise.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I think that Blasters were the elephant in the room, needing some decent changes.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
All of the other ATs are about right, with some minor tweaking here or there.
|
A boot to the head!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFldBVWFgWo
how bout we start off with all tanks get kb protection. its silly to think a meat shield should be flopping around like a fish out of water..change #1!
Quote:
Um I do not know where u been hiding but tanks DO get KB protection besides DA and FA. Most have a toggle with there mez prot, and few have a click able power with there mez prot that gives them KB prot.|
Originally Posted by Severe
how bout we start off with all tanks get kb protection. its silly to think a meat shield should be flopping around like a fish out of water..change #1!
|
SR - Practice brawler KB pro 10 click able
SD - Activate Defense KB prot 10 Click able
Stone - Rooted, Granite Kb pro 10 each both 20 toggle
WP - indomitable will KB prot 10 toggle
Ele - Grounded KB prot 15 always active and need to be on ground
Inv - unyielding KB prot 10 toggle
Ice - wet Ice KB prot 10
Quote:
Hence, the request ALL tanks get KB protection and stop excluding FA and DA.
|
Originally Posted by LSK
Um I do not know where u been hiding but tanks DO get KB protection besides DA and FA.
|
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
t.y. rylas...i assumed the word "all" was easy to understand...
This could sound crazy but why not increase the area of tanker damage? I mean tanker damage already qualifies as aoe, even the single target hits.This kinda falls flat personally since staff and titan have large aoe radii.
Or add a tank only aura to the inherit that adds -resist? This feels like the better idea and balancing the amount of -resist could be difficult, but it could at the very least bring more appeal to bringing a tanker onto a team.All the while, making the aggro herding mechanic something that people will want to learn to do or follow?
Or dare I say undo the aggro cap for tankers alone? Could be the most dangerous,as it may make farming much more easy to do like it was pre-ae nerfs.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
"My Thugs/Pancake can solo Breast Cancer!"
|
Quote:
The main problem I see with that is in certain situations IE the DFB where u want to get that one badge where u kill the boss before the others, or the TPN where u might accidentally destroy the camera out side in the first part of the TPN.
|
Originally Posted by Botzo
This could sound crazy but why not increase the area of tanker damage? I mean tanker damage already qualifies as aoe, even the single target hits.This kinda falls flat personally since staff and titan have large aoe radii.
|
Change #2 to tanks.. self rez powers like rotp when used has all your toggles on. This makes the power better since you wont be taking the next 4 minutes waiting for tough, weave,fire shield,plasma and blazing aura to shoot back on which the untouchable part is too short in duration for.throwing in some +tohit and a damage buff for 30 seconds after you come back up and making the damage high from the initial power too .this will help those that dont have real tier 9 powers like unstoppable
If they can do it for hibernation then they can for the self rezzes
Quote:
Hibernate is a self-intangible, not being defeated. I don't see how that means they can keep toggles on for self rez.
|
Originally Posted by Severe
If they can do it for hibernation then they can for the self rezzes |
if you been here long enough the list of "could never dos" ended along time ago. theres a way to either toggle on or they need to entend the untouchable time limit.its too short.
and to show im flexible...how bout we pack in the new asorb to it instead. keep toggles off but throw in asorb instead for 30 seconds.this way i can toggle and attack making it worth the self defeat
Tankers are a tough fix because the problem is that their role in the game is vanishing, especially in Incarnate content. In normal teams control and debuffs generally make a dedicated aggro-grabber overkill outside maybe the initial positioning of scattered mobs, while the abundance of buffing available in incarnate content means that scrappers and brutes can generally do most of our job (the rest of which even WE generally have trouble doing thanks to auto-hit, no-resist etc etc.)
Survivability is not something that needs a major fix on tanks. We're tough enough for 99.5% of the content in the game and the last .5% is something they obviously don't want straight-up tanked. If anything, I'd give the tanks a passive that'd give them something that the other ATs don't have surviviability wise, like a Last Stand- maybe when a Tank's HP is out, they can remain standing as long as they have endurance, which can translate (Current End x Current Level/5) HP or something through damage, but still being drained as toggles are maintained and powers are used (maybe even disable End Recovery while Last Stand is active to prevent some shenanigans)
QoL issues would go a long way to making tanks more playable. We pay as much as everyone else to maintain our defenses and while we get more out of it, it is our role get more out of it. An across-the-board End Reduction on defensive clicks and toggles would go a long way to make playing a tank more bearable, especially solo. Survival is our role, why should we pay as much as everyone else to provide it?
Or if not that, why not increase the Tank's role as control. Increase the proc rate or provide a chance of additional magnitude on mez-inducing tanker attacks, or maybe add a new inherent power where the tanker applies a Mag-4 immobilize to someone he hits thre or more times in a row with an attack- 'pound that guy into the ground' as it were. Or provide damage reduction to all other targets on any AoE attack who's main target is the tanker-letting the tanker protect those nearby who wander into the line of fire intended for himself.
Meeh, whatcha gonna do?
Quote:
This I mostly agree with, but even positioning mobs becomes trivial in the typical steamroll that happens nowadays.|
Originally Posted by LordLockeRA
Tankers are a tough fix because the problem is that their role in the game is vanishing, especially in Incarnate content. In normal teams control and debuffs generally make a dedicated aggro-grabber overkill outside maybe the initial positioning of scattered mobs, while the abundance of buffing available in incarnate content means that scrappers and brutes can generally do most of our job (the rest of which even WE generally have trouble doing thanks to auto-hit, no-resist etc etc.)
|
Quote:
| Or if not that, why not increase the Tank's role as control. Increase the proc rate or provide a chance of additional magnitude on mez-inducing tanker attacks, or maybe add a new inherent power where the tanker applies a Mag-4 immobilize to someone he hits thre or more times in a row with an attack- 'pound that guy into the ground' as it were. Or provide damage reduction to all other targets on any AoE attack who's main target is the tanker-letting the tanker protect those nearby who wander into the line of fire intended for himself. |
Here is the problem, as I see it:
The more powerful every AT becomes, the safer they become and the less important tanking becomes. Most people agree it's better than the squishy ATs are not quite as squishy as they once were.
The state of the game isn't a bad one for everyone else, but it's not a good one for Tankers because of the one role they were designed to do.
Therefore they need to have their role expanded. Better than average survivability and being a distraction and the cost of having your offense crippled does not cut it anymore.
As other ATs become safer, it becomes more and more illogical to punish Tankers with having low damage when many of those other ATs can became safe and not have to give up their superior damage. If a Scrapper and a Brute can walk into the same mission solo as a Tanker and not die, why is the Tanker penalize to do it slower? Being tougher than a Scrapper or a Brute really isn't an advantage if Scrappers and Brutes aren't dropping dead to begin with and get to dish out much better damage.
And giving Tankers more control doesn't solve anything because much in the same way tanking has become less important, so has control. You don't need a tanker to help lock down a crowd with control if they're not a huge threat to anyone else to begin with and are being steamrolled over. And control does nothing for the Tanker when he's not on a team.
If people want a control/defense AT or a melee damage/buff-debuff AT then they should tell the devs they want one, but Tankers are not that. Like all melee ATs, Tankers were given a defense power set and a melee damage power set. Tankers hit things and Tankers get hit. If "getting hit" isn't doing it nowadays, it's time to re-examine how they hit things. People like Brutes more than Tankers because despite the fact share a lot of similarities, Brutes are tough but they don't hit like girls. People like damage. People like feeling powerful. That's exciting. 'Slow and steady' isn't widely regarded as fun and exciting. So if they can't make Tanker combat interesting and unique from Scrappers, Stalker or Brutes without Tankers being 'Fury-less Brutes', they need to put some more serious thought into it because I'm sure there's room for four flavors of melee fighter ATs without one being stuck with the "slow-and-weak-hitting-with-superfluous-survivability" flavor.
.
Quote:
I largely agree with this.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
This I mostly agree with, but even positioning mobs becomes trivial in the typical steamroll that happens nowadays.
As other ATs become safer, it becomes more and more illogical to punish Tankers with having low damage when many of those other ATs can became safe and not have to give up their superior damage. If a Scrapper and a Brute can walk into the same mission solo as a Tanker and not die, why is the Tanker penalize to do it slower? Being tougher than a Scrapper or a Brute really isn't an advantage if Scrappers and Brutes aren't dropping dead to begin with and get to dish out much better damage. And giving Tankers more control doesn't solve anything because much in the same way tanking has become less important, so has control. You don't need a tanker to help lock down a crowd with control if they're not a huge threat to anyone else to begin with and are being steamrolled over. And control does nothing for the Tanker when he's not on a team. If people want a control/defense AT or a melee damage/buff-debuff AT then they should tell the devs they want one, but Tankers are not that. Like all melee ATs, Tankers were given a defense power set and a melee damage power set. Tankers hit things and Tankers get hit. If "getting hit" isn't doing it nowadays, it's time to re-examine how they hit things. People like Brutes more than Tankers because despite the fact share a lot of similarities, Brutes are tough but they don't hit like girls. People like damage. People like feeling powerful. That's exciting. 'Slow and steady' isn't widely regarded as fun and exciting. So if they can't make Tanker combat interesting and unique from Scrappers, Stalker or Brutes without Tankers being 'Fury-less Brutes', they need to put some more serious thought into it because I'm sure there's room for four flavors of melee fighter ATs without one being stuck with the "slow-and-weak-hitting-with-superfluous-survivability" flavor. . |
One thing I will say, though, is that any increase in damage would have to be balanced by a reduction in survivability.
Quite honestly, the only solution I can see that might resolve things is a Vigilance-style trade-off for Tankers between damage and hit-points: Tankers starting with higher damage modifiers and less hit-points than currently while solo, but losing damage and gaining HP with each team-mate.
It has the advantage of being both thematic and balanced, but I'd hate to be the developer deciding on the trade-off.
-Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Aegis
One thing I will say, though, is that any increase in damage would have to be balanced by a reduction in survivability.
|
No, it doesn't because Brutes.
It's as simple as that.
Brutes have the same resistance caps as Tankers and just 10% shy the same Max HP caps. Fury doesn't suddenly shut off and their damage buff cap suddenly shrink when a Brute gets his survivability above a certain point. Brutes don't have to sacrifice or trade off so why should Tankers?
.
Quote:
They wouldn't, necessarily. This is a separate argument - how they should behave on large teams.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No, it doesn't because Brutes.
It's as simple as that. Brutes have the same resistance caps as Tankers and just 10% shy the same Max HP caps. Fury doesn't suddenly shut off and their damage buff cap suddenly shrink when a Brute gets his survivability above a certain point. Brutes don't have to sacrifice or trade off so why should Tankers? . |
I'll try to find more time to go over this later, but you're essentially making an argument there about "arbitrary amount of buffs" teams - that in those situations, Brutes have both high survivability and damage. This is correct. A trade-off inherent wouldn't impact this, however.
I agree with you that the Tanker damage cap should be raised to a fairer trade-off between Tankers and Brutes (450%, correct?), however, the only way that Tanker damage could be raised would be by introducing a balancing penalty.
Remember, you yourself said that some Tanker survivability is "superfluous". Take that superfluous survivability on small teams or solo play and trade it for some damage to make that gameplay experience a little more enjoyable, is my suggestion.
-Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
Quote:
445% from the current 300%, from my rough calculation, which could obviously be flawed. That, along with Bruising, would put Tanker single target damage at the cap to 90% of what a Brute would do at the cap. AoE damage would still lag behind, because Bruising really doesn't affect it, but considering Bruising has other advantages (buffing teammates/pets) that's an acceptable trade off in my opinion.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Aegis
A trade-off inherent wouldn't impact this, however.
I agree with you that the Tanker damage cap should be raised to a fairer trade-off between Tankers and Brutes (450%, correct?), |
Quote:
| however, the only way that Tanker damage would be raised would be by introducing a balancing penalty. |
I wouldn't object to it, but I'm not sure I'd ever use it.
Why would I as long as red inspirations don't enforce a survivability penalty?
.
what happens if you add Bruising to all Tanker secondary attacks (minus auras)?
And why do you think that if people aren't playing Tankers despite the fact that they're the toughest, that making them tougher will change their minds?
If by "more similar to Brutes" you mean popular and generally regarded as fun to play and not regarded as slow and boring, which is what seems to be the most common criticism about Tankers, then I don't think that's a bad thing.
We're talking about taking a percentage of another person's damage and passing it through your character's resist and defense numbers. If tankers are so tough, how would that be unsensible to mitigate a teammates damage?
And how would that be greifable!? You can toggle it as you see fit. Even if a character ran in and took a nuke in an effort to get you killed, you're only taking on a percentage of a percentage of that damage.
At least explain your complete disregard so you don't look like the stubborn soap-boxer you've become known as.
Gives Tankers a reason to take Taunt for themselves, especially in the lower levels (because survival in the lower levels isn't as assured for a Tanker) and use it even when solo.
2. Sounds exploitable when two tanks with even moderate recharge just keep spamming taunt to keep absorb up. In the meantime, they're not using that extra damage you want because they want to keep spamming taunt for the absorb.
3. Let's say you shrink the absorb buff down to make exploiting less desirable. Then you've made the value of having the buff questionable.
4. I already have reasons to take taunt. Many people do. I don't see why your opinion of it not being worth using has anything to do with this.
5. Having to actively use Taunt to consistently buff yourself (which you already said tanks don't need more survival) or teammates seems time consuming. At least a toggle idea doesn't require dipping into your DPS to provide teamates a buff that could be more permanent when in range.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.