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Ah, here's something I can work with -- apologies, then, if this shows up as a double post.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
IMO, the only reason Tanker Endurance Discount is on the table is because it doesn't offend Scrappers and Brutes; it isn't really something they'd want badly/be envious of and in no way endangers their position as Kings of the melee ATs. The suggestion is boring, bland and safe and keeps Tankers boring and bland (and keeps Scrapper and Brute egos safe).
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This is the problem we're having. Your proposed solution is much more simply executed as removing Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers, and replacing them with a single Archetype. The lines between Scrappers and Brutes are already a little hazy -- they have most of the same powersets, with most of the same powers, and the same primary/secondary division. There exist Brute and Scrapper builds that are basically interchangeable.
This is not the case at the moment for Tankers and Brrappers or Scrutes or whatever those things are. Tankers have a particular and specific role, and they're not performing it satisfactorily -- or as you put it, in a distinct and fun way.
I have been willing to consider this complaint because I see some merit in it, reflected in my own attitudes. I'm sitting on a WP/Staff Tanker that ought to be a blast, but I just can't get into it. I'm having much more fun playing my Brute, and I've got a Scrapper queued up for later (and a Blaster, Controller, and Corrupter sitting on back burners for those vanishingly brief periods I'm bored of melee). I even have a Stalker and a Defender in there, although it's up in the air whether I'd play them before or after my Tanker.
But be that as it may, I still regularly encounter Tankers in-game, and I do not expect most people to want to play them; more solo-oriented classes will always have a significantly higher population short of artificial incentivism. Even in games that have such behavior, like World of Warcraft, they expect a much higher damage-dealer to tank or support ratio.
So the solution here isn't further blurring the lines between melee ATs -- it's making Tankers fun. If "add damage" is really the only way to do that, we may as well toss the class out; it's just going to go into an interchangeable pile with Sbrrups. I'd like to hope that's not necessary.
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Tankers don't need to faceplant less. Otherwise, why not just put them on godmode.|
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
Plenty of characters don't faceplant the vast majority of the time. This further reduces the number of situations in which a tanker would.
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| It's more group-oriented. Increased secondary effects means increased ability to eg stun EBs. |
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| They do. Damage. |
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| I already dualbox a squishy following me around on my melee toons. Objection irrelevant. |
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| Ah, it's a shame they removed all the debuffs and control effects from every Scrapper primary. |
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| Yes. Tankers, who are godlike selfless immortals |
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| are being persecuted by the jealous insects. |
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| Wolvie kicks Piotr through a barn and the fight ends with Piotr punching a tire and giving up. |
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| They're certainly capable of raging through crowds of weaker enemies, and they absolutely inspire a kind of fear or awe |
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| Of course, if you really want to go to the source, we could put Knockback on every Tanker attack. That's definitely there; they send things flying all the time. I seem to recall Mr. Emmert being fond of that idea. |
But I've always felt that should have been used as reasoning to add more knockback and justify upping the damage to offset the chasing. That's definitely what I do with a power like Rage: remove the +dam and ToHit buffs and add a slight ToHit penalty with +knockback and Doublehit 100% x base.
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Finally got through the thread. Some thoughts.
~ Increasing the tanker damage cap is a great way to reward them when paired with Kins and other force boosters, but it really doesn't help them when plodding along doing solo missions. That said I wouldn't have an issue with an increase to tanker damage caps so they can get more benefit from group buffs as long as SS tankers don't pull even further ahead with a third Rage stack.
~ Brutes and Scrappers are not tough enough to tank high end content that has heavy debuffs. Carnies, Arachnos Widows, DA Banished Patheon, all of these can wreck most Brutes and Scrappers because of the severe debuffs. I'd like to see tankers have an inherit and fairly high resistance to debuffs and drains.
~ Brute resistance caps should probably be dropped to 85%.
~ I wouldn't mind Tanker taunts having a demoralizing effect that gave foes a debuff that reduced total Hit Points. This would help them defeat things easier without increasing damage, act as a damage multiplier on teams in a unique way, and reduce the effects of regeneration on opponents.
Edit: Colossus is probably a Brute and these days defeating Wolverine is not really an accomplishment as every girl scout with a super suit does it.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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What you say above is mathematically impossible. Without powerful endurance management powers that most powersets don't have, no one can not be endurance constrained while leveling up. By mathematical necessity, those with the lowest DPE will have that constraint reduce their kill speed the most. Its about as boring and safe as inherent fitness, in the sense that it is in fact non-dramatic, and on the other hand likely to be an enormously beneficial quality of life benefit for most players that actually level tankers.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Tankers don't have endurance issues worse than anyone else. Even if they do, there's powers like Conserve Power, Performance Amps, Ageless Destiny and, you know, blue Inspirations, (because they don't need green, purple or orange). Even if you make it so no Tanker ever would need CP, that frees them up to take...what? More survivability powers they don't need? Damage boosting abilities that don't exist (or ones that aren't mutually exclusive to start with)?
It doesn't make Tankers any more fun, doesn't give them a unique play style. It doesn't give them any pizzazz or make them cooler. It wouldn't improve their popularity; to anyone who doesn't like playing Tankers now, they'd still be just slow Brutes without Fury. IMO, the only reason Tanker Endurance Discount is on the table is because it doesn't offend Scrappers and Brutes; it isn't really something they'd want badly/be envious of and in no way endangers their position as Kings of the melee ATs. The suggestion is boring, bland and safe and keeps Tankers boring and bland (and keeps Scrapper and Brute egos safe). |
*That's* why I suggest it. That your specific issue with Tankers doesn't encompass any of those issues is not something I consider a problem of mine.
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On a side note - how the hell did Colossus rip off his leg if he has an indestructible Adamantium skeleton ? It's been a while but has something changed?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
What do you hope to accomplish with this? Tankers do not lack in survivability. Giving them more than they have now doesn't help them because what they have now is already often superfluous. Especially compared to Scrappers and Brutes who get along fine with less, still don't faceplant in the vast majority of the game's content, and aren't heavily penalized for damage and damage potental like Tankers are.
I suggested this, half as a joke and half seriously, in another thread. Give Tankers a click that takes any Absorb on them and dumps it into bonus damage a la Doublehit. With the upcoming Tanker +Absorb ATO and say, a new magical power pool that has a +Absorb click, this could be put to good use on a Tanker, as opposed to more superfluous survivability they don't need. From the little bit of testing with the Control Hybrid in beta when it had a similar 'Scourge' like attack, I can say this idea doesn't seem to work well in practice on a Tanker. It didn't get a chance to work on lesser enemies like Minions, and didn't make enough of a noticeable effect on harder enemies like Bosses and EBs because it didn't DO anything until you already got their health down half way with your weak attacks. IMO, the only reason it works for Corruptors is because they have a buff/debuff secondary (and usually more AoE) that synergies with it. I doubt this would happen. The devs want some mezzes to mez everyone. No. Tankers already protect the team by holding aggro. They already buff the damage of anyone attacking the same target as them with Bruising. Tankers do enough for teams already and pull far more than their own weight. Teams should do more for Tankers, IMO. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the reason some people want Bodyguard is so they can farm with their Tanker and PL their dual boxed squishy and keep it alive and on follow with debuffs on cycle. You bring up a Tanker/Scrapper duo. If a Tanker stands next to a Scrapper, the Scrapper is not only safer, but it does more damage. What does the Tanker get from standing next to a Scrapper? Nothing. Scrappers contribute the damage they do, but they don't make the Tanker's damage any better. Combined, the duo's damage goes up, but Tankers aren't any more damaging. That would be as if Tankers had their superior survivability but didn't pull aggro; sure the overall duo toughness goes up, but Scrappers wouldn't be safer. In other words, usually Tankers do more for other than others do for them and contribute more to a team than Scrapper (or Brutes), yet are punished for it with crap damage. Also, I need to point out that Colossus (the Tanker in your words) does way more damage than Wolverine, and usually tears him apart when they fight:  That's why comic book Tankers draw so much attention (aggro) from the enemies; because they're powerhouses and the serious threat. CoH Tankers aren't a serious threat, they're low damage rodeo clowns. . |
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Considering the leg isn't directly connected to the hip, but is a ball and joint...
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
On a side note - how the hell did Colossus rip off his leg if he has an indestructible Adamantium skeleton ? It's been a while but has something changed?
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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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In addition, something can bend and flex but not break, plus "Adamantium skeleton" does not equal "Adamantium connective tissue".|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Considering the leg isn't directly connected to the hip, but is a ball and joint...
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Personally, if the Developers look at Tankers and make changes, these are things I wouldn't be surprised to see:
Mind you, I wouldn't be upset if they did raise Tanker damage caps, or upped the Damage Mods. I just don't believe that this would be their approach at the moment.
- Damage cap stays the same. To help with Tank damage potential they either leverage bruising further, or add some minor de-buff to their attacks, that will stack from other Tankers.
- Something akin to SoA's Conditioning is added, but not at the same effectiveness. This wouldn't change the DPE at lower levels, but would make it less painful for Tanks early on.
- If they can't figure out a way to fix the gauntlet bug (see sig), I could also see them adding a minor damage, or DoT to make up for gauntlet screwing with tank to-hit rolls. Maybe adding the aforementioned de-buff/bruising to gauntlet.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I very much doubt they would be following the Marvels idea on how to do things anytime soon. Completely different IP.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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That is true but that doesn't mean that even the melee AT that is constrained by endurance the most is constrained very much at all.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
y mathematical necessity, those with the lowest DPE will have that constraint reduce their kill speed the most.
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It's been my experience that power set makes more of a difference than AT for the blue bar. None of my Tankers are bottlenecked by their end significantly more than they would be if they were a Brute with the same power sets.
And that ignores the fact that pretty much any end issue can and is solved by the late game where pretty much any melee can attain a point where they can recoup it faster than they can reasonably burn it. This doesn't create a unique play style for Tankers if Brutes and Scrappers can attain it too. Which is why I said it gets the thumbs up from Scrappers and Brutes, because it's giving Tankers something they can already attain, and isn't something that Scrappers and Brutes can't also attain.
And, it doesn't even free Tankers up to build for anything else meaningful because outside of survivability, endurance and damage, there's nothing else for a melee AT to desire. Tankers have and can attain the first two of those. Scrappers and especially Brutes have and can attain all three.
You want to sell me on this idea? Multiply the endurance drain on toggles in all melee defense sets by 10 and then give Tankers an end discount so only they break even with the current rate. Because that's the only way Tankers having an endurance advantage would actually be an advantage.
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Okay rather than rehash all my previous points in their entirety, I'm just going to summarise and reiterate:
There are two issues that I can see with Tankers specifically.
1. They don't "feel" like comic book bricks in general play. This is an old complaint; plodding through maps solo, in complete safety, while doing mediocre damage certainly doesn't help in this regard, neither, at the other end of the teaming scale, does being outperformed by Brutes in leagues.
2. They don't really contribute anything in the new endgame and high level game that Brutes aren't perceived to do better. Outside of that endgame, they still have their uses, but the preponderance of defensive buffs from various sources means those uses are very specific, as other melee ATs can adequately fill in for them.
To fix 1: I propose that a Vigilance-style damage and hitpoint trade-off power be added to the Tanker's inherent powers.
The smaller the team the larger the damage buff the Tanker gets, and the smaller the hitpoints it has, and vice versa. For each team member, the tanker loses damage and gains HP. While solo, Tanker and Brute damage and survivability should be broadly similar; on a team of eight the Tanker should be unchanged from now.
This, I believe, is thematically appropriate, balanced, and most importantly, a change that will make Tankers more fun to play.
To fix 2: Either have Tankers bring -something- to leagues and high level content that will make them more popular other than damage, or simply raise the their damage caps so that Tanker's can achieve 90% of Brute damage, in the same way Brutes can achieve 90% of Tanker survivability. Nerfing Brutes may make more numerical sense in this than buffing Tanks, but I can't imagine it will make the game in general any more fun to play.
-Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
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Howzabout: Any Tanker that attacks a Bruised target (including the one that Bruised it) has additional [Doublehit]-style damage added to their attacks on that target.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
[*]Damage cap stays the same. To help with Tank damage potential they either leverage bruising further, or add some minor de-buff to their attacks, that will stack from other Tankers.
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This allows a benefit of Bruising to "stack" (but not multiply) with additional Tankers and without becoming an out of control multiplier for them the rest or the team.
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If it can be leveraged without becoming OP, maybe. It would, outside of Hybrid, give tanks a unique mechanic. Barring the usual " standard code rant", the idea doesn't pop up an red flags in my mind at the moment.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Howzabout: Any Tanker that attacks a Bruised target (including the one that Bruised it) has additional [Doublehit]-style damage added to their attacks on that target.
This allows a benefit of Bruising to "stack" (but not multiply) with additional Tankers and without becoming an out of control multiplier for them the rest or the team. |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Howzabout: Any Tanker that attacks a Bruised target (including the one that Bruised it) has additional [Doublehit]-style damage added to their attacks on that target.
This allows a benefit of Bruising to "stack" (but not multiply) with additional Tankers and without becoming an out of control multiplier for them the rest or the team. |
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
If it can be leveraged without becoming OP, maybe. It would, outside of Hybrid, give tanks a unique mechanic. Barring the usual " standard code rant", the idea doesn't pop up an red flags in my mind at the moment.
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That is a fairly interesting way to leverage Bruising without stacking -Res. It's also a fairly interesting way to stack multiple Tankers in a group, which right now serves little purpose.
I like it.
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That depends on what you mean by bottlenecked. Click for click, button for button, a Tanker doesn't burn more endurance than a Brute. But particularly while leveling, Tankers have to click a lot more buttons. The difference is high enough to be noticable even comparing Brutes and Scrappers, much less Brutes and Tankers.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
It's been my experience that power set makes more of a difference than AT for the blue bar. None of my Tankers are bottlenecked by their end significantly more than they would be if they were a Brute with the same power sets.
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| And that ignores the fact that pretty much any end issue can and is solved by the late game |
For example, you keep saying that there's no opportunity to increase damage like there is to increase defense. That ignores the fact that the singular change that has increased damage output across the board for everyone with higher end invention builds has been the proliferation of recharge bonuses. No tanker with a high end recharge build today underperforms a pre-invention blaster's damage output no matter how many HOs it was slotted with. High recharge builds of every archetype today outperform the best we did prior to those becoming available - even with perma-Hasten in the pre-ED days.
There is a lot less +DMG than +DEF in the invention system, but there's more +RECH than anything, and its recharge that turned 150 dps builds into 400 dps monsters.
Which you can only take advantage of if you are not endurance constrained.
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Then I'm not buying into it. Tankers deserve something that makes them unique and desirable ALL the time, not something that gives them a head start on something everyone can do and whos advantage disappears the second you remember you can combine green, orange or purple inspirations into blues.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Deliberately so.
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End is like survivability, it has a finite point where more ceases being really beneficial: once you can recoup more than you burn, more than that really isn't useful, aside from a few extreme side cases like end train and recovery debuffs.
I've attained that point essentially on all my Tankers with little effort. Ageless or CP makes end a joke, even with the blue gobbling monster that is Rage stacking and Hasten crashes. YMMV.
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| It means you get to spend opportunities to solve them instead of doing other things. |
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| For example, you keep saying that there's no opportunity to increase damage like there is to increase defense. |
For example, Ageless Destiny is massive +recharge, but also +recovery.
On my main Inv/SS I was aiming for +recharge and +MaxHP with IOs, and still ended up with 80% global recharge perma and no end issues without making any noticeable sacrifices. And that's before even using Ageless and Hasten. Even if I could fit more +recharge, it really isn't going to shave much more off of KOB's or Foot Stomp's cycle time.
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I'll let you or Rangle claim ownership of it. An idea being affiliated with me makes the devs less likely to dig it.|
Originally Posted by Caulderone
That is a fairly interesting way to leverage Bruising without stacking -Res. It's also a fairly interesting way to stack multiple Tankers in a group, which right now serves little purpose.
I like it. |
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And yet you ask for things like damage cap increases which the vast majority of all tankers would rarely see any material benefit from.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Then I'm not buying into it. Tankers deserve something that makes them unique and desirable ALL the time, not something that gives them a head start on something everyone can do and whos advantage disappears the second you remember you can combine green, orange or purple inspirations into blues.
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I ask for a damage buff cap increase to bring Tankers in line with Brutes.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And yet you ask for things like damage cap increases which the vast majority of all tankers would rarely see any material benefit from.
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I don't usually bother trying to figure out new mechanics for Tankers to make them unique anymore. I'd rather leave that up to people the devs give fair consideration to. Even so, I've suggested a couple recently on the off chance they caught on.
As long as the damage cap gets fixed in addition to it*, I'm willing to entertain just about any mechanic or suggestion. But whatever else Tankers get, I think ideally it should add some pizzazz, fit with them conceptually, improve their popularity and make them feel badass. IMO, that's not an end discount.
If your idea and the cap fix were the only thing on they table, I could learn to live with it. It certainly wouldn't make Tankers worse. I just think there are cooler ideas than an end discount and I'd give the thumbs up to one of them before I would your idea.
*Or even instead of a cap increase if the suggestion improved Tanker damage potential similarly.
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You assume that any change to an archetype must combine numerical performance fixes and "pizzazz" in the same effect, but I believe that's actually the wrong way to do it. Flashy things that are *also* based on strong numerical performance changes tend to be unable to get too flashy, because their flash is constrained by the limits of the numbers the devs are willing to hand out. Conversely, numerical changes that have to also be flashy tend to be too difficult to balance.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If your idea and the cap fix were the only thing on they table, I could learn to live with it. It certainly wouldn't make Tankers worse. I just think there are cooler ideas than an end discount and I'd give the thumbs up to one of them before I would your idea.
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Separating the flash from the quantitative leaves more options open to make things that are flashy and gameplay significant without being directly tied to pure numerical benefits, while numerical benefits can be balanced to the needs of the archetype without them having to bear the full burden of being perceived as being flashy. That's why, in the post where I addressed the question of what I would do, I mentioned several independent ideas, one of which was the quantitative element I could prove, namely the issue of DPE, and the other which was intended solely to proxy as an example for the general principle of granting an effect that was gameplay-flashy.
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I'm with Rangle on this one. Surprisingly enough. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Howzabout: Any Tanker that attacks a Bruised target (including the one that Bruised it) has additional [Doublehit]-style damage added to their attacks on that target.
This allows a benefit of Bruising to "stack" (but not multiply) with additional Tankers and without becoming an out of control multiplier for them the rest or the team. |
If it could be balanced so it isn't equivalent to Critical damage on any Bruised target (because that WOULD be OP), I could get on board with something like this.
And by "isn't equivalent to Critical damage" I mean it should not just do double damage on the Bruised target. And no, that isn't because I want Scrappers to stay ahead, it's because being able to land a Critical KO Blow at will would be overpowered as hell, and even you would have to admit it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Brutes and tanks are not equal...never have been...never will be...the MMO gods have deemed this to be so Johnny...so stop this incessant ranting and get over it already...|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I ask for a damage buff cap increase to bring Tankers in line with Brutes.
I don't usually bother trying to figure out new mechanics for Tankers to make them unique anymore. I'd rather leave that up to people the devs give fair consideration to. Even so, I've suggested a couple recently on the off chance they caught on. As long as the damage cap gets fixed in addition to it*, I'm willing to entertain just about any mechanic or suggestion. But whatever else Tankers get, I think ideally it should add some pizzazz, fit with them conceptually, improve their popularity and make them feel badass. IMO, that's not an end discount. If your idea and the cap fix were the only thing on they table, I could learn to live with it. It certainly wouldn't make Tankers worse. I just think there are cooler ideas than an end discount and I'd give the thumbs up to one of them before I would your idea. *Or even instead of a cap increase if the suggestion improved Tanker damage potential similarly. . |
Tanks are not losing out on tanking to brutes...
You want to prove it? I can guarantee you, I have seen a few tanks that could tank the Hamidon AV in the UGT. I have a DM/INV brute...he is no slouch, I could tank the warwalkers...but not everything in the UGT...and the Hamidon AV squashed him like a bug...just didn't have enough tank in him...but an INV tank would have...or a Dark Armor tank...or Electric...etc.
Want to know why UGT is not all that commonly run these days? Because people know you cannot tank the Hami with a Brute...and finding someone who plays a tank...and knows what they're doing...is hard on most nights, then try to put together a trial and get enough people, who aren't scared of failing, together to run it. Good Luck.
The endgame content you all think brutes excel in, actually better defines a role for Tanks in the end than normal gameplay has in years...
But who sees that when all they want to do is watch Tanks burn the world in butane?
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You say Critical, I think "High damage value with a low-ish proc chance."|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'm with Rangle on this one. Surprisingly enough.
If it could be balanced so it isn't equivalent to Critical damage on any Bruised target (because that WOULD be OP), I could get on board with something like this. And by "isn't equivalent to Critical damage" I mean it should not just do double damage on the Bruised target. And no, that isn't because I want Scrappers to stay ahead, it's because being able to land a Critical KO Blow at will would be overpowered as hell, and even you would have to admit it. |
That's not what I was suggesting with the idea. I was thinking a 75-100% proc chance, with definately less than 50% of base as a [Doublehit] value, in Smashing. Not a bursty increase, but something more constant and even.
I've been asking for the damage cap to be upped to 545% to bring Tankers in line with Brutes. If the devs did do my Bruising/Doublehit suggestion, I'd revise that to an even 500% for the cap, if the Doublehit value and proc rare was decent enough to make up the difference.
Off the top of my head without a calculator, I think it would have to be a 35-40% of base value. 40% may even be a little over because of the way Doublehit calculates with recharge. I'll crunch the numbers later, as I'm walking out the door right now.
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I agree with the damage cap increase, on a scale, it should look like this
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So there has to be some mathematical formula somewhere that can justify that diagram. defense -----middle--------offense tank---------brute---------scrapper
Other than that, changes that need to be made,
Higher taunt mag for willpower.
Remove/greatly raise the aggro cap for tanks, let a tank learn how much they can handle and learn to taunt accordingly.
Swap Resist physical damage and tough hide in invulnerability for tanks. (This is really just a pet peeve of mine, they need to be switched but for reasons I'm not going into here)
Graphical Updates to attacks to make them "feel" more powerful at least.
Plenty of characters don't faceplant the vast majority of the time. This further reduces the number of situations in which a tanker would.
Tankers do enough for teams already and pull far more than their own weight.
Still.
In brief, it is as follows : at a certain point of incoming damage, the damage becomes greater than the character can entirely mitigate, and they begin to lose HP more quickly than they can recover it. At this point the character has three options : Increase their mitigation to the point that their hit point recovery again exceeds the incoming damage; increase their hit point recovery to match or exceed the incoming damage; or to kill the motherfer before it kills them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuYXQkpzJLQ
Wolvie kicks Piotr through a barn and the fight ends with Piotr punching a tire and giving up.
So we're one for one. C'mon, find me another.
Of course, if you really want to go to the source, we could put Knockback on every Tanker attack. That's definitely there; they send things flying all the time. I seem to recall Mr. Emmert being fond of that idea.