Before the rumors start

Brutes are sadly OP I can't justify making a scrapper or tanker because of them. I think Brutes should have their damage cap reduced from 800% and their resistance caps pushed down to scrapper level. This would definitely help tankers out.

So if Brutes get nerfed and Tankers are left the same slow, plodding, redundant aggro monkey they are (because lets face it, Tankers in no way a threat to Scrapper superiority), Scrappers look all the better for it.

That's all I hear Claws saying when he argues for Brute nerfs instead of improving Tankers.



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ok so lets see


nerf brutes.( i have 4 brutes so dont think i want them nerfed cause i dont play them.but when it needs to happen theres no going around it so stop complaining about it already)

all kb protection on ALL tanks.

up the max agggro limit.

while im at it. super strength needs a nerf too. sorry boys and girls but the tohit in rage needs to be backed off. infact i say remove the tohit all together from it.keep the damage and nerf the recharge a tad as well.

Sorry if this isn't particularly helpful, because honestly I haven't played a tank past 20, so I really don't know a lot about what they need.
Still after reading Arcana's post I think the net benefit that the endurance reduction on defensive powers would come in slotting.. yes by 30 endurance issues are dealt with on the whole, but it is through slotting and power selection, if a tank has very little endurance costs then it frees up all those endurance management slots and power choices for tanks. Whether or not there is better things to take is something I haven't really looked at, but I don't think it would be a worthless change as it seems some people think it might be.

As for a niche style, a very inelegant one might simply be another version of the fury bar that is based on incoming damage (or directly on the life bar of the tank but I don't like that because it will encourage a more reckless play style of maximizing by always running at half health) which boosts recharge instead of damage. So the more damage the tank takes, the faster he moves, which in turn increases damage but also defensive click buffs. I am sure there are better ways of doing this, and I'm not sure just how much recharge would be needed to make this worthwhile, nor how much recharge would actually benefit tanks, but it seems to me if the upward numbers were high enough it could give tanks a significant boost. If the overall gain/decay rate for this were roughly equivalent to fury, and at 100% it gave 70% recharge, would that be enough? too much? (taking into account haste, recharge etc..)

Another idea that I don't really care for (because it is based on the tank failing at some level and could be grief material), but could be fun and I can see being thematically perfect for the tank AT is to give them an inherent vengence wrapped in gauntlet. Another reason I don't like this is because it really doesn't deal with one of the main complaints about tanks which is that they are slow and boring solo.

Remove Gauntlet from Brutes... It's supposed to be the tank inherent why did they give it to brutes, never made sense to me.

Buff the tank damage at a base level in addition to raising the cap and maybe find a way to increase the agro cap tanks can hold, maybe by way of something with the agro aura powers and them being a primary instead of a secondary.

Give tankers a Domination style click power that builds up over time as they successfully draw aggro. When the power is active all single target attacks will have their damage applied to any targets affected by Gauntlet. Design it in such a way that it can be made perma if you build for it. Group fighting FTW!


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So fixing your favorite AT requires nerfing the daylights (or sufficiently enough anyway) out of the second most damage dealing AT in the melee sets so that one has to sacrifice most survivability to get any damage (3rd if you include stalkers since the changes)?

Look at pylon times...brutes are up there, but Night Widows and Stalkers and Scrappers still obliterate their times.

I like tanks...tanks do have an inherent advantage that some of you think is redundant...that is boosted defense and resist and HP base numbers...I have a Dark Armor tank with just shy of 2500 HP...I have a Dark Armor brute that barely breaks 2000 HP...both of those are with accolades but it is a very clear point.

I like brutes...far better than scrappers...though scrappers still deal more damage...Brutes feel like a good solid middle road between tanks and scrappers. More defensive ability than scrappers, but similar base values, just higher caps...(which are not easily leveraged...but are there.)

I also think nerfing SS is a bad idea...isn't that one of the best powersets for you guys too? Just curious...cause I sure see a boatload of SS or TW or Fire tanks...and I know they wouldn't have so many if you guys weren't looking at damage numbers. Personally I don't see that getting ported to scrappers anytime soon, and I don't see them touching it anytime soon...it would cause an uproar the likes of which would take a complete turnover in staff to extinguish the flames of revolt....

Brutes don't need a nerf...you guys need something that is truly yours, I agree with that...but the direction you're going will not get you traction if you think that the devs will completely nerf an entire AT while everything else gets adjustments upward...it doesn't make any sense with the trends that things are moving towards...

I have played this game since 2005-2006...to my recollection Scrapper resist caps were never more than 75% since I started. Tanks don't need brutes adjusted down...they need a tune up and a new transmission.

You guys act like these caps are an enormous factor and brutes live it rolling at everything hardcapped...they don't.

If anything you guys do more of that than anybody...so get it bumped

I think the issue stems from the fact it's very easy to tell the difference between things like Defender/Corruptor, Scrapper/Stalker, Controller/Dominator, as the playstyles cause a solid contrast between those ATs, while Tanker/Brute often it feels like the only real difference at 50 is Brutes have far superiour damage numbers.

I won't say I've read every word in this thread, but I think I've read every post.

I think Arcanaville hit on something quite good. The problem isn't "Not Tankers because Brutes," it's really more, "Not Tankers because Defenders." (And Hybrid, and Destiny, and IO Defense softcapping...)

Even Johnny_Butane has managed to mangle a good point out of this.

All that toughness that Tankers have isn't particularly necessary. Brutes can't build themselves to run around at their caps with anything resembling ease, but they can certainly be buffed to do so; a Tanker starts out much closer to their own caps, but going 40% overcap is not actually more impressive than only going 1 or 2% overcap.

I'm unfortunately not in a position to have a really good solution ready for this state of CoX; I've been gone for several Issues and am only just starting to get into Incarnate content. But I was wondering what people thought of these:

Damage Capping. That is, capping incoming damage to Tankers to a certain value. I don't know if this would be a flat % ("no attack does more than 49% of a tanker's health) or some kind of diminishing returns thing -- like, a 100-point attack does 100 points, a 1000 point attack does 200 points, a 10000 point attack does 300 points (in a very simple example. I would express this as a formula but I've apparently forgotten everything I know about logarithms this morning! Hooray!).

"Overcharge" mechanics. If a well-built, well-played tanker is going to be overhealed or pushed over their cap in certain areas, why not use this in their favor? An 'overcharged' tanker might deal more damage or recharge their powers faster.

Increased damage and secondary effects against low-health enemies. In the source material, tankers always seem to be good at getting the last word.

Incarnate-grade mez protection above a certain % of own health. Tankers -- and their team -- would be rewarded for keeping the tank at high health by having them be able to shrug off ordinarily non-resistible effects.

Bodyguarding. Arcana explained this one and I rather like it; it's got a sort of Colossus-and-Wolverine feel, which is pretty much the archetypical Tanker/Scrapper duo. I would prefer this handled as a damage and mez suppression field effect (possibly with some percentage of the suppressed effects affecting the Tanker). This would also make Tanker and Tanker combos that much better.

Johnny, I actually DO agree with you on a point you keep making:

It is not fair or balanced that Brutes can approach Tanker survivability while dealing far more damage.

We're never going to agree on which AT is the problem, though.

I've made my counterpoint often enough that I'm not going to bother with it again. I just wanted to point out that I do agree with you on at least one point.

One thing I could support being done for Tankers is have the endurance cost lowered on some of their attacks, so at least their damage per endurance spent is comparable. Tankers deal roughly 75% of Scrapper damage, so reducing the end cost of their attacks accordingly would be fair I think.