Quote:
Fury is the dominant mechanic of Brute play. It drives the build decisions and play style right up until high levels and IO's and, potentially, external buffs allow Brutes to get by without paying it quite so much heed. Fury is what makes a character with Scrapper level damage and, barring external buffs, Scrapper level defensive numbers feel dramatically different from Scrappers.
|
Originally Posted by Sukugaru
Maybe my choice of wording - scrapper level defense to tanker level defense - was poorly thought out. Basically I'm wondering if the idea of defenses improving as Fury improves has any merit. I've never been at max level or incarnate levels, let alone high level teams, so I don't know exactly crazy things get or how viable this idea would be.
On Fury: If Brutes can get up to high levels of Fury, and then just stay there nonstop, then it makes you wonder what the point of Fury is. |
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
Quote:
Neither. I was just pointing out that in general non-melee characters do not "have their entire 2.48 end per second + base endurance to dish out damage".|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Are you suggesting that the endurance costs of those toggles are an equal constraint on offensive output, or are you attempting to contradict the original premise that endurance costs of defensive toggles are immaterial to offensive output by pointing out everyone has defensive toggle endurance costs?
|
I think in general non-melee characters spend less endurance on toggles than melee characters (ignoring Leadership and Fighting) but that isn't the same as spending nothing. Some specific non-melee sets probably do spend more than melee sets but there's significant variation within melee sets as well, especially if you consider powers like Quick Recovery as being a part of the "toggle cost" of a set.
Quote:
Then that's true.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Neither. I was just pointing out that in general non-melee characters do not "have their entire 2.48 end per second + base endurance to dish out damage".
|
Quote:
| I think in general non-melee characters spend less endurance on toggles than melee characters (ignoring Leadership and Fighting) but that isn't the same as spending nothing. Some specific non-melee sets probably do spend more than melee sets but there's significant variation within melee sets as well, especially if you consider powers like Quick Recovery as being a part of the "toggle cost" of a set. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Yes. I know *that*.|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Fury is the dominant mechanic of Brute play. It drives the build decisions and play style right up until high levels and IO's and, potentially, external buffs allow Brutes to get by without paying it quite so much heed. Fury is what makes a character with Scrapper level damage and, barring external buffs, Scrapper level defensive numbers feel dramatically different from Scrappers.
|
If Power X can be on or off, but players always have it turned on, then what's the point of the off switch? Defensive toggles cost endurance and offensive toggles cost more endurance, but Fury costs nothing.
My KM/FA Brute gets to scrapper level damage easily, and she's level 30 and has no IOs. The 'challenge' with Fury is not very challenging.
-
Sorry everyone, I've digressed massively in a Tanker thread on the Tanker forum. But surely it's understandable? My sole Tanker (a typical Inv/SS) hasn't been played in a long time because, well, Brutes.
Quote:
Fury costs health and endurance. You cannot keep it at its normal maximum of 85% without spending those things.|
Originally Posted by Sukugaru
Yes. I know *that*.
If Power X can be on or off, but players always have it turned on, then what's the point of the off switch? Defensive toggles cost endurance and offensive toggles cost more endurance, but Fury costs nothing. |
It's true that Brutes only require a Fury level of about 25% to match Scrapper damage.
Quote:
The cheque is in the mail.|
Originally Posted by Sukugaru
My sole Tanker (a typical Inv/SS) hasn't been played in a long time because, well, Brutes.
|
.
Quote:
Hey, you interrupted an esoteric discussion on endurance mechanics. Try not to do that.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The cheque is in the mail.
. |
-Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Aegis
Hey, you interrupted an esoteric discussion on endurance mechanics. Try not to do that.
|
.
Quote:
False|
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
It's true that Brutes only require a Fury level of about 25% to match Scrapper damage.
|
Scrapper slotted charged brawl- 112.7
Brute slotted charged brawl at 25% fury- 85.81
Brute slotted charged brawl at 75% fury- 120.8
The break even point is 63% fury, assuming you're slotted similarly
Quote:
Interesting. Just going off of their respective damage scales of 0.75 for Brutes and 1.125 for Scrappers, my calculations suggested that it would take about 49% Fury for a Brute to catch up and do as much damage as a Scrapper. Not being a math whiz, and coming from a long break from the game, I decided not to post it, trusting that somebody else would catch him if he was wrong.|
Originally Posted by Garent
False
Scrapper slotted charged brawl- 112.7 Brute slotted charged brawl at 25% fury- 85.81 Brute slotted charged brawl at 75% fury- 120.8 The break even point is 63% fury, assuming you're slotted similarly |
Is your data purely tested, or was it a calculation from numbers on the web?
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
Quote:
That figure falls pretty closely inline with similar experience I have playing a Katana/Dark Brute... The trick to it in soloing is you pretty much have to run all out, all the time, to keep above 60-70% fury constantly...and that's hard to do. The Fury proc now makes it to where, when I am ticket farming +4/x8 I can keep fury pretty high...say...85-95%...but with random spawn generation on smaller maps at same difficulty, it tends to not reach those levels...because you have to hunt down spawns and the map sizes often limit the amount of time you can spend saturated in a mob worth of bodies...large maps, it's more attainable if the spawn numbers are higher (total number of spawns, not group size). Then you can sort of aggro a few together and maintain your fury.
|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Interesting. Just going off of their respective damage scales of 0.75 for Brutes and 1.125 for Scrappers, my calculations suggested that it would take about 49% Fury for a Brute to catch up and do as much damage as a Scrapper. Not being a math whiz, and coming from a long break from the game, I decided not to post it, trusting that somebody else would catch him if he was wrong.
Is your data purely tested, or was it a calculation from numbers on the web? |
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Hmm... For what it's worth, in Mids, comparing Battle Axe Beheader, it takes 74% Fury to match across the two ATs. This is not taking Critical Hit into consideration.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
It's from mids with configuration set to average damage, so critical hits are averaged in to it.
|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Is your data purely tested, or was it a calculation from numbers on the web?
|
Quote:
Even if you click Critical off?|
Originally Posted by Garent
It's from mids with configuration set to average damage, so critical hits are averaged in to it.
|
If so, then 74% just to match in mids to crit averages.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
This is almost correct.|
Originally Posted by Garent
The break even point is 63% fury, assuming you're slotted similarly
|
I like to say 60%, for roundness sake, though.
Why I say almost correct? Scrapper has a 25% higher self-damage buff modifier. This means Buildup for Scrappers is +100% instead of +80%. Not only does Buildup for scrappers work of a higher base, but it is also stronger.
For a brute, inside BuildUp, to match a Scrapper, inside buildup, the brute will need 100% fury.
This may also be an interesting note: in it's current form, without any changes to Rage, a Super Strength scrapper would be as strong as a Super Strength Brute that always run at max fury.
The "critical hit" toggle doesn't actually do anything. In order to mess with criticals, you want to jump in to configurations and the "effects and math" tab.
I'm curious how you got 74% though. I'm showing that as doing 143 damage on a brute with 3 SOs and 103.4 without slotting. I can't get that to match on a scrapper
Quote:
Ah, I see what happened. Bio Armor was defaulting as the armor when I started up Mids and it threw the numbers off. I switched to WP and I'm getting between 63% and 64% Fury to match the damage now. |
Originally Posted by Garent
I'm curious how you got 74% though. I'm showing that as doing 143 damage on a brute with 3 SOs and 103.4 without slotting. I can't get that to match on a scrapper
|
Those are pretty easy numbers to maintain on a brute.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
That explains why your numbers require higher Fury to match a Scrapper than mine did. What kind of foes to mids assume for criticals, or did Scrapper criticals get normalized across enemy ranks while I was away?
|
Originally Posted by Garent
It's from mids with configuration set to average damage, so critical hits are averaged in to it.
|
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
It assumes a 10% critical rate, which makes sense considering that minions and lower are the only things that give 5%.
Oh good, I'm actually glad I was mistaken. I did neglect to account properly for slotting; I went with a simple 0.75 * 1.5 = 1.125. The 50% damage boost would be 25 fury. It also does not account properly for critical hits (I should've used a Scrapper damage of at least 1.18125 up to 1.2375).
Edit : Okay, so we want .75(1+E+F) to equal E*1.1*1.125... ugh, that's kind of a mess. So... F = 1.65/E - E - 1, I guess. Really? Well, whatever.
Johnny, I take it you don't want to interrupt an esoteric discussion on comparing Brute and Scrapper damage as well?
In their defense, people do like to talk about the AT's they actually play, so it makes sense, statistically speaking, that over a long enough thread, people will stop talking about Tankers, even in an actual Tanker thread.
-Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
Yeah, it'd be totally lame if someone started talking about other ATs like, six posts into the thread or something, focusing entirely on how Brutes are more desirable and they need to be addressed and stuff.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Aegis
We're now in a situation where, on a large team with an arbitrary number of defensive and offensive buffs, you have two thematically similar AT's where one is obviously more desirable, one being capable of dealing far, far more damage with only a slight to moderate reduction in survivability due to differences in damage and hitpoint caps. That, I believe, is bad design.
-Captain Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU |
Quote:
Well, thanks for reposting one of my original points on this thread, Jack. Comparing the performance of the Tanker and Brute ATs is, I believe, worthy of discussion in a Tanker forum, for various reasons which I would hope people would be smart enough to comprehend, and which have been extensively discussed already. This is quite different to spending a couple of dozen posts arguing overall endurance mechanics or at what point Scrappers and Brutes out-compete each other in DPS. |
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
Yeah, it'd be totally lame if someone started talking about other ATs like, six posts into the thread or something, focusing entirely on how Brutes are more desirable and they need to be addressed and stuff.
|
Some amount of thread drift is usually inevitable, of course, but it would be nice to actually discuss the original point. Perhaps if you moved your discussion to the Scrapper, Brute or AT & Powers sections?
-Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
Yes -- you did make your very first post in the thread a comparison between different melee Archetypes, and for good reason. As insane as it sounds unless you read the posts, this discussion has been about all the melee ATs almost the whole way through. Even Stalkers (although they're mostly hiding). We can't meaningfully discuss Tanker performance without discussing Scrapper and Brute (and Stalker) performance; there wouldn't be many or any relevant benchmarks to describe what we want them to be like. Consequently, comparing the behavior of the other melee ATs (and Stalkers) to each other is not only inevitable but necessary for a proper sense of scale.
Of course, we should also probably be talking about Masterminds. But eh.
This question is disingenuous -- I'm not interested in the explicit answer but rather your consideration of the process necessary to provide that answer. I don't think you understand the magnitude of the change being suggested.
Edit : Or if you do, I'd really like an explication (no typo), as I certainly don't yet.