Quote:
They're there. You just need +Perception to see them.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Psst... You forgot Stalkers...
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Didn't slot any +Perception...
And I'm not sure how to fit stalkers in that scale, I see stalkers more with blasters and defenders despite being melee centric.
How about this? 
Code:
defense -----middle--------offense------really offensive (at least some scrappers think so ) tank---------brute---------scrapper------stalkers
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Is it possible to add splash damage to all Tank ST attacks?
This would give Tanks more AoE damage, thus increase Tank damage without treading on the toes of other Melee alts in ST damage?
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Quote:
I fully admit Stalker's aren't my specialty, but with the recent changes, I perceive Scrappers and Stalkers to be just about at the same place on the defense/offense spectrum.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
How about this?
Code:
defense -----middle--------offense------really offensive (at least some scrappers think so ) tank---------brute---------scrapper------stalkers |
Granted, Stalkers are skewed more to ST damage and Scrappers are stronger in the AoE department. But Stalker's stealth feels comparable Scrapper survivability, if one had to compare apples to pears.
And I wouldn't mind a similar relationship between Tankers and Brutes, them being the two "heavy" melee ATs (as opposed to Stalkers and Scrappers being "light") and already sharing similar caps (except damage which is what I'm trying to remedy), Which is why I keep pushing for Tanker ST damage. Let Brutes be the AoE machines of the two. Conceptually, it makes sense to me.
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In the long run I still believe that if/when the developers ever look at Tankers anything that modifies their damage potential will be something that benefits the team as a whole, not just the tanks. Even though I'm not opposed to a "double-hit" style mechanic being used on bruised targets, or something similar, I just think they'll use that approach. It would keep in step with what they introduced with bruising.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Quote:
Stalkers have faster pylon times and keep all the AoE in most cases, the differences are primarly in their secondaries, scrappers are slightly more survivable if you take into consideration a stalker being out of hide. But Stalkers don't often poke their heads out for much as it does them little to no good to give up immense defense bonuses and stealth. Some Primary sets are immensely better on Stalkers like Street Justice because they get ANOTHER big hitter with AS, but lose no AoE at all.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I fully admit Stalker's aren't my specialty, but with the recent changes, I perceive Scrappers and Stalkers to be just about at the same place on the defense/offense spectrum.
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Quote:
| Granted, Stalkers are skewed more to ST damage and Scrappers are stronger in the AoE department. But Stalker's stealth feels comparable Scrapper survivability, if one had to compare apples to pears. |
Quote:
| And I wouldn't mind a similar relationship between Tankers and Brutes, them being the two "heavy" melee ATs (as opposed to Stalkers and Scrappers being "light") and already sharing similar caps (except damage which is what I'm trying to remedy), Which is why I keep pushing for Tanker ST damage. Let Brutes be the AoE machines of the two. Conceptually, it makes sense to me. |
So, if you would give up your higher base HP and res/def advantages (in primaries and power pools) to get more damage...you're just rolling the wrong toons...
Why not roll a brute then...?
Issue solved.
Unless, you're miffed because you don't want to relevel a toon to 50...or you're seriously attached to ice armor/melee...in which case you either need to bite the bullet, or start waiting for ice on brutes like everyone else who is attached to those sets and prefers damage.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
I really don't see this as a problem, as far as melee AT's go. A toon can stay alive alot longer if the player will actually pay attention to what is going on around them and take the correct action. Play according to your toons strengths and weakness, and if you don't like them, change them. It's not a hard concept. My scrap can stay alive longer than most ranged AT's in every incarnate trial. The only reason for that is that i've played him in those instances and found the holes in his build. Now...he dies less. |
Originally Posted by LSK
Actually I see not only is there a problem with tanks but also for most melee ATs out there, BAF u get 3 rings your held, trying to stop the inmates from escaping while running back and forth. LAM crates/capsules trying to target them when a range AT has them scattered, Maurader doing his big attack where the melee has to break off to not to get killed, MoM the purple rings may I say more? Keys getting disintegrated as u fight anti, his big attack thats melee, TPN getting marked for death while fighting Maelstorm, UG getting close and then getting confused on the last AV, fighting the leach infested War walkers, and a few other spots, Mag getting to close to neo pendragon, chaseing after cim, the final fight where he dose his electric attack, I have yet done the DD but all the others it seems to me that the ranged AT has a bigger advantage then any of the melee toons out there.
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As far as the purple rings, anti's Dis, maels targeting, and even the avatars confusion, plan ahead. slot what you need. hell, even take some larger insp if you have to. Take a look at that toons weakness. Why does he die so frequently? Fill the hole, and try it again.
If the Devs made trials or whatever else, to easy, then we'd be bored and frankly i'm tired of easy games. Amazes me how when somebodies toon dies, they say "the trial is to hard, change this or that", when in reality its the toon that needs alittle TLC.
My 2 inf
@Karmaa
Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. -Sun Tzu
Quote:
I said no damn such thing.|
Originally Posted by planet_J
So, you've said earlier in this thread you would give up some survivability for damage...right?
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Sure, temporarily, as a click: take survivability hit situationaly to gain offense boost, in the way Bio Armor does. I'd be open to seeing how that worked for Tankers as an inherent.
But permanently reduce anything on Tankers for more damage? No way. Because Brutes don't have to make that choice. As long as they get to have nearly the same survivability potential as Tankers (without giving up their massive damage and damage potential), there's no reason Tankers shouldn't have similarly comparable offensive potential. Hence, upping the Tanker damage cap.
.
I think Tankers should just get the new Vigilance added to Gauntlet, where they get a damage bonus while unteamed. "Without needing to be concerned about defending his allies, a Tanker is free to unleash his full power."
As with Defenders it addresses solo play speed issue (I've never really found Tankers slow, and I pretty much play Brutes and Tankers exclusively, but whatever).
It's even faithful to the comic books - the Tankers are always stronger alone.
(I'd also like to see them immune to -def, -regen, and -resist to truly seperate them from the masses of other melee characters in the game at the moment, but that's a little far fetched. Sadly.)
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Quote:
And the response from the pessimist in me: Crap.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Okay, before things get taken out of context and proportion, let's just get this straight right off the bat.
During the Dev chat today, it was mentioned that Tankers MIGHT be the next AT being looked at, and that was certainly NOT a promise. It was in response to a question about which AT might get looked at next, and the Devs there seemed pretty unsure. I think that Blasters were the elephant in the room, needing some decent changes. All of the other ATs are about right, with some minor tweaking here or there. As such, let's not run rampant with rumors about Tankers being next on the Dev list. They aren't, but could be looked at. There was also absolutely no promise that another AT wouldn't come first if needed. |
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
Quote:
You're right. That choice is made for them. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
But permanently reduce anything on Tankers for more damage? No way. Because Brutes don't have to make that choice. |
Unless you're trying to say that the larger base values Tankers get have nothing to do with their survivability advantage.
Brutes get the same base values as Scrappers and Stalkers. In the absence of outside help via teammates or Incarnate powers, they are only slightly tougher than Scrappers, due to having higher base HP.
You conveniently ignore the higher base values Tankers have for survivability-related powers every time this discussion comes up.
The devs cannot guarantee that a Brute or a Tanker will always have a teammate handy to buff them. They CAN guarantee that they will spend part of that time alone.
If you really want to compare Tanker and Brute performance, compare a Tanker and a Brute that are totally alone. No outside buffs from teammates, no Incarnate powers. The Tanker will outlive the Brute every single time.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Saying that Tankers need more damage because a Brute can reach the same survivability when buffed by a Thermal Radiation or Sonic Resonance teammate is absurd. What level of survivability can that Brute reach by himself?
I've compared the two side by side using the same sets. With no outside buffs, Tanker resistance is a full 20% higher than Brute resistance in the majority of cases. The only exceptions there are Electric Armor and Fiery Aura, where both ATs can reach 90% to one damage type. An Invulnerability Brute is capable of reaching 90% to S/L damage, but he has to devote the majority of his IO slotting toward that goal, which gimps quite a few other aspects of the build, and locks them into one particular Alpha slot. They can't do it at all until they get Alpha either.
Saying that Brutes give up nothing is a flat out lie. They don't get the base values Tankers get, and that makes them less survivable by default.
Honestly, I would really like to see some datamining that shows exactly how frequently any Brute reaches the survivability potential you keep saying is so unfair. I would be willing to bet it is less than 1% of that character's existence.
I would also like to see datamining that shows how frequently any Tanker is sitting at his damage cap. I would be equally willing to bet that the percentage of time spent is about the same. There is only 1 build I can think of that can do it by himself, and that would be the Shield/SS build you claimed you did it on (I'm not doubting your claim, but I didn't see it with my own eyes, and I don't report hearsay as fact. I believe it is possible though)
I would also be willing to bet the only reason you could reach the recharge necessary to pull that feat off is because a Shield Defense Tanker needs next to no IO help to reach the soft-cap. And you say Brutes give up nothing? Shield and SR Brutes don't get the ability to reach the soft-cap on SOs and power choices alone like Tankers do. My DA/Staff Tanker will hit 90% to 4 different damage types, all by his lonesome. The Staff/DA Brute that can make the same claim will never exist.
Brutes give up more than you're willing to admit.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I know that a multitude of reasons have been given regarding the difference between Brutes and Tankers, but I'll just reiterate the most important one:
Brutes are locked into a specific combat behavior to capitalize on their archetype's inherit ability. Tankers, on the other hand, possess flexibility and can freely swap their combat behavior (ie - break from dealing constant damage to maintain Fury) with minimal penalty. In other words, it is possible to "starve" a Brute, but not a Tanker.
It doesn't matter if you're in PvE or PvP, this changes the dynamic of combat effectiveness based on situational factors and reduces the penalty of swapping to utility management over DPS as situations dictate.
As such, simply altering the caps or providing a static damage benefit to Tankers only increases the benefit of focusing on DPS over utility management. I also cannot see the Devs making any changes that would not completely (and negatively) alter the Archetype's existing range of benefits as we have been building up quite a repertoire and there seems to be some kind of obsession with simplicity that might come into play.
And while I respect the Devs for their hard work, if Hybrid and PPM changes are any indicator then I am of the opinion that this current generation of Devs are less inclined to making changes based on feedback and instead venture on third (arguably less-fulfilling) options.
But admittedly, this is pessimism talking. My character is at a point where I don't have anywhere else to go but down.
My suggestion? Give Tankers Taunt for free, so we can have an extra power option. There are many Tankers who get along without Taunt, but the best of us typically swear by it.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
Quote:
The devs take feedback into account. That doesn't mean they obey individual players. Would it be fair for others to judge whether you listen to them based on how often you did what they told you to do?|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
And while I respect the Devs for their hard work, if Hybrid and PPM changes are any indicator then I am of the opinion that this current generation of Devs are less inclined to making changes based on feedback and instead venture on third (arguably less-fulfilling) options.
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The devs get feedback from lots of directions: from lots of different players, all of whom have different ideas (consensus among the players is usually an illusion). From their QA team. From their peers. All of that gets fed into the decision making engine that is a brain. They get paid to do what *they* think is best, *based* on all the information available, including player feedback. But listening to player feedback is not the same thing as taking a poll and doing whatever gets the most votes. That's not being responsive, that's being an idiot.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
You wonder why the devs don't listen? It's because you spout ill conceived opinions...|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I said no damn such thing.
Sure, temporarily, as a click: take survivability hit situationaly to gain offense boost, in the way Bio Armor does. I'd be open to seeing how that worked for Tankers as an inherent. But permanently reduce anything on Tankers for more damage? No way. Because Brutes don't have to make that choice. As long as they get to have nearly the same survivability potential as Tankers (without giving up their massive damage and damage potential), there's no reason Tankers shouldn't have similarly comparable offensive potential. Hence, upping the Tanker damage cap. . |
The circumstances under which these buffs, that you assert "happen all the time", actually occur, are in extreme end game content where you have a group of between 12 and 24 players comprised of 50+2 to 50+3 level shifted toons in a large group trying to complete a difficult task designed to be expressly difficult by a talented group of developers.
Using incarnate trials as the basis for wanting to change the AT is not something that will hold water for a large, sweeping, unilateral buff...that part of the game is maybe...10% of all content...if that much...and it's not even something every VIP engages in routinely...some VIPs have never done a single incarnate trial. Might be hard to believe, but I have run across them occasionally.
Brutes are not as survivable as tanks...go sell crazy somewhere else.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
Claws, I have to applaud this post...this was about what I was thinking, but I was seriously unmotivated to waste any more effort on trying to get him to see how ignorant his thinking is...|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You're right. That choice is made for them.
Unless you're trying to say that the larger base values Tankers get have nothing to do with their survivability advantage. Brutes get the same base values as Scrappers and Stalkers. In the absence of outside help via teammates or Incarnate powers, they are only slightly tougher than Scrappers, due to having higher base HP. You conveniently ignore the higher base values Tankers have for survivability-related powers every time this discussion comes up. The devs cannot guarantee that a Brute or a Tanker will always have a teammate handy to buff them. They CAN guarantee that they will spend part of that time alone. If you really want to compare Tanker and Brute performance, compare a Tanker and a Brute that are totally alone. No outside buffs from teammates, no Incarnate powers. The Tanker will outlive the Brute every single time. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Saying that Tankers need more damage because a Brute can reach the same survivability when buffed by a Thermal Radiation or Sonic Resonance teammate is absurd. What level of survivability can that Brute reach by himself? I've compared the two side by side using the same sets. With no outside buffs, Tanker resistance is a full 20% higher than Brute resistance in the majority of cases. The only exceptions there are Electric Armor and Fiery Aura, where both ATs can reach 90% to one damage type. An Invulnerability Brute is capable of reaching 90% to S/L damage, but he has to devote the majority of his IO slotting toward that goal, which gimps quite a few other aspects of the build, and locks them into one particular Alpha slot. They can't do it at all until they get Alpha either. Saying that Brutes give up nothing is a flat out lie. They don't get the base values Tankers get, and that makes them less survivable by default. Honestly, I would really like to see some datamining that shows exactly how frequently any Brute reaches the survivability potential you keep saying is so unfair. I would be willing to bet it is less than 1% of that character's existence. I would also like to see datamining that shows how frequently any Tanker is sitting at his damage cap. I would be equally willing to bet that the percentage of time spent is about the same. There is only 1 build I can think of that can do it by himself, and that would be the Shield/SS build you claimed you did it on (I'm not doubting your claim, but I didn't see it with my own eyes, and I don't report hearsay as fact. I believe it is possible though) I would also be willing to bet the only reason you could reach the recharge necessary to pull that feat off is because a Shield Defense Tanker needs next to no IO help to reach the soft-cap. And you say Brutes give up nothing? Shield and SR Brutes don't get the ability to reach the soft-cap on SOs and power choices alone like Tankers do. My DA/Staff Tanker will hit 90% to 4 different damage types, all by his lonesome. The Staff/DA Brute that can make the same claim will never exist. Brutes give up more than you're willing to admit. |
Bravo...Good Show!
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
* To be read as a joke* I think AT needs to wory less about people making replies and running rampant with the rumours of upcoming tanker changes. Who do they think they are, ?i mean, in a world of interwebz what the heck are we supposed to be, how would we feel fulfilled if we couldnt go on and on and on all day about a supposed rumour. Why is this person deliberatley spoiling our enjoyment of a main past time in down time or when we can't get on. I think we should ignore this damp squid spoiling our rumoured fun and get rumouring. I think The damage cap on tanks needs to go to 700% at least, along with and increade to 110% base and put its base defence to 50%, the same with its resistance, all its powers should be one shot AOE's ignoring the 1 shot rule. there, lets have fun and discuss. *end of fun bit*
On a lighter note, even pre brute nerf, tanker buff at joining I read I wouldn't have been fussed. I play what I like mainly. CoH has always been more of a concept type game to me but if they were going to do something I would think that incarnate slotted Tanks could do with an aggro cap increase. They seem like low damage scrappers and brutes in the end game with everyones defences maxed out these days, they like defenders have fallen back in the end game, thats all I see, both could do with something. But only at the end league style game, in the normal game I can't see any differance really.
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JB's been spouting the same line since before I left the last time, and that was a month or so after the release of AE. "Seeing reason" is pretty much a lost cause; "leaving it be" is also a pipe dream. All we can really hope for is "realizing he's outnumbered," which is when his politeness defense kicks in. And when he's playing nice, he'll occasionally say something approaching sense.|
Originally Posted by planet_J
...but I was seriously unmotivated to waste any more effort on trying to get him to see how ignorant his thinking is...
|
I've learned (mostly the hard way) that Arcana's opinions about other forumites are only very slightly worse than her opinions on mechanics.
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Brutes are not locked at their base values. There are uncountable ways for them to become tougher, and they don't require a Brute sacrificing any damage or giving up Fury or lowering their high damage cap. They can achieve almost as much survivability as a Tanker, they are only shy 10% maxHP, but a Tanker can not achieve as much damage.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You're right. That choice is made for them.
Unless you're trying to say that the larger base values Tankers get have nothing to do with their survivability advantage. Brutes get the same base values as Scrappers and Stalkers. In the absence of outside help via teammates or Incarnate powers, they are only slightly tougher than Scrappers, due to having higher base HP. You conveniently ignore the higher base values Tankers have for survivability-related powers every time this discussion comes up. |
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| If you really want to compare Tanker and Brute performance, compare a Tanker and a Brute that are totally alone. No outside buffs from teammates, no Incarnate powers. |
You want to ignore them because it hurts your position. Survivability wise, as they become more powerful, Brutes and Tankers are converging to a single point. Damage wise, Brutes are staying ahead and will continue to say ahead.
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| The Tanker will outlive the Brute every single time. |
Do Brutes die in +0x1 radio missions against the Council? In the SSA?
The fact is, Brutes are pretty damn survivable. For 90% of the content in the game, they get along just fine. The content that will kill a Brute, but spare an equivalent Tanker is what, maybe 5% of the game? So why should a Tanker suffer a damage penalty 100% of the time for an advantage that's actually only an advantage 5% of the time?
And of that 5% of content, IOs, Inspirations and Incarnate powers can close most of the gap for a Brute.
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| Saying that Brutes give up nothing is a flat out lie. They don't get the base values Tankers get, and that makes them less survivable by default. |
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| Brutes give up more than you're willing to admit. |
Tankers give up damage for some out of the box survivability.
But Brutes get to have high survivability potential (nearly as high as Tankers) without giving up high damage potential. Tankers don't.
That is all I want fixed: Increase Tanker damage potential to bring them in line with Brutes.
And that's besides the point that out of the box survivability that Tankers get is often not advantageous to them and that high survivability potential is often superfluous.
.
Quote:
Although I agree with the majority of what you say here I'm mainly with JB in regards to conclusions.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You're right. That choice is made for them.
Unless you're trying to say that the larger base values Tankers get have nothing to do with their survivability advantage. Brutes get the same base values as Scrappers and Stalkers. In the absence of outside help via teammates or Incarnate powers, they are only slightly tougher than Scrappers, due to having higher base HP. You conveniently ignore the higher base values Tankers have for survivability-related powers every time this discussion comes up. The devs cannot guarantee that a Brute or a Tanker will always have a teammate handy to buff them. They CAN guarantee that they will spend part of that time alone. If you really want to compare Tanker and Brute performance, compare a Tanker and a Brute that are totally alone. No outside buffs from teammates, no Incarnate powers. The Tanker will outlive the Brute every single time. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Saying that Tankers need more damage because a Brute can reach the same survivability when buffed by a Thermal Radiation or Sonic Resonance teammate is absurd. What level of survivability can that Brute reach by himself? I've compared the two side by side using the same sets. With no outside buffs, Tanker resistance is a full 20% higher than Brute resistance in the majority of cases. The only exceptions there are Electric Armor and Fiery Aura, where both ATs can reach 90% to one damage type. An Invulnerability Brute is capable of reaching 90% to S/L damage, but he has to devote the majority of his IO slotting toward that goal, which gimps quite a few other aspects of the build, and locks them into one particular Alpha slot. They can't do it at all until they get Alpha either. Saying that Brutes give up nothing is a flat out lie. They don't get the base values Tankers get, and that makes them less survivable by default. Honestly, I would really like to see some datamining that shows exactly how frequently any Brute reaches the survivability potential you keep saying is so unfair. I would be willing to bet it is less than 1% of that character's existence. I would also like to see datamining that shows how frequently any Tanker is sitting at his damage cap. I would be equally willing to bet that the percentage of time spent is about the same. There is only 1 build I can think of that can do it by himself, and that would be the Shield/SS build you claimed you did it on (I'm not doubting your claim, but I didn't see it with my own eyes, and I don't report hearsay as fact. I believe it is possible though) I would also be willing to bet the only reason you could reach the recharge necessary to pull that feat off is because a Shield Defense Tanker needs next to no IO help to reach the soft-cap. And you say Brutes give up nothing? Shield and SR Brutes don't get the ability to reach the soft-cap on SOs and power choices alone like Tankers do. My DA/Staff Tanker will hit 90% to 4 different damage types, all by his lonesome. The Staff/DA Brute that can make the same claim will never exist. Brutes give up more than you're willing to admit. |
IMO Brutes and Tanks are balanced when using standard SO's and in isolation of all buffs, the issue that I have is when this changes.
Solo SO's/Basic IO's using inspirations:
Brute pops a purple or two, due to the mechanics of defence he can hit the defence cap while doing massive damage through Fury.
Tank wants more damage so pops a red or two and has a moderate damage increase.
In this scenariio against most mobs, the Brute would plough through them much faster than the Tank without risk.
So basically, insperations are weighted more towards survivability than damage and aid Brutes more than Tanks when trying to acheive the same goals.
In a team on SO's/IO's
With buffs and the same Defence (same for all)/Resistance caps
Both can hit the similar levels of survibility, add in a Kin and both can hit their damage cap.
Result, both have extreme survivability but the Brute is doing much more damage.
Solo on IO's - high end build.
Both are extremely survivable but the Brute's damage is far higher.
As you've stated under these circumstances the Brute won't be able to match the Tanks survivability and I agree. As people have stated before though it's survable enough and when you take into account the kill speed it doesn't have to be as survivable because the mobs are taken down much more quickly.
One of the big advantages that Tanks get is the higher base values however this is pretty much negated by the pve and pvp +defence IO uniques. Hitting the defense cap is the most chased survivability aim of melee AT's - with these around the higher base defense is pretty much irrelevent.
As an example one of my mains is a SD/SS Tanker, I hit the Defence cap easily and then went for recharge to gain extra damage. I've seen SS/SD Brutes using the two unique IO's that have nearly as much recharge as my Tank due to the diminishing returns. This is one example but it will exist in other builds.
On a team with IO's - high end build.
Lots of buffs for both, Brute hits the Tank Res cap while dealing massive damage, Tank hits caps and does alot less damage because the damage cap is lower.
Incarnate trials
As above both at the def/res caps and the Brute deals alot more damage.
Personally I think that the damage Cap needs to be raised on the Tank so that on teams with buffs, it at least has ability to get in the same ballpark as Brutes.
I also believe that the resistance cap of Brutes should be brought down to 5% above those of Scrappers. Defense is their secondary I can see no justification for it to be so high considering the disparity in damage that they can output without buffs.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Quote:
The Cap for Defense is well over 100% you can't hit the cap...on SO's many armors cannot even get close to the softcap...like electric/fire for example that are 2 of the most popular ones...and basic IOs provide no set bonuses...|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
Although I agree with the majority of what you say here I'm mainly with JB in regards to conclusions.
IMO Brutes and Tanks are balanced when using standard SO's and in isolation of all buffs, the issue that I have is when this changes. Solo SO's/Basic IO's using inspirations: Brute pops a purple or two, due to the mechanics of defence he can hit the defence cap while doing massive damage through Fury. Tank wants more damage so pops a red or two and has a moderate damage increase. |
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In this scenariio against most mobs, the Brute would plough through them much faster than the Tank without risk. So basically, insperations are weighted more towards survivability than damage and aid Brutes more than Tanks when trying to acheive the same goals. |
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In a team on SO's/IO's With buffs and the same Defence (same for all)/Resistance caps Both can hit the similar levels of survibility, add in a Kin and both can hit their damage cap. Result, both have extreme survivability but the Brute is doing much more damage. |
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Solo on IO's - high end build. Both are extremely survivable but the Brute's damage is far higher. As you've stated under these circumstances the Brute won't be able to match the Tanks survivability and I agree. As people have stated before though it's survable enough and when you take into account the kill speed it doesn't have to be as survivable because the mobs are taken down much more quickly. One of the big advantages that Tanks get is the higher base values however this is pretty much negated by the pve and pvp +defence IO uniques. Hitting the defense cap is the most chased survivability aim of melee AT's - with these around the higher base defense is pretty much irrelevent. As an example one of my mains is a SD/SS Tanker, I hit the Defence cap easily and then went for recharge to gain extra damage. I've seen SS/SD Brutes using the two unique IO's that have nearly as much recharge as my Tank due to the diminishing returns. This is one example but it will exist in other builds. |
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On a team with IO's - high end build. Lots of buffs for both, Brute hits the Tank Res cap while dealing massive damage, Tank hits caps and does alot less damage because the damage cap is lower. Incarnate trials As above both at the def/res caps and the Brute deals alot more damage. Personally I think that the damage Cap needs to be raised on the Tank so that on teams with buffs, it at least has ability to get in the same ballpark as Brutes. I also believe that the resistance cap of Brutes should be brought down to 5% above those of Scrappers. Defense is their secondary I can see no justification for it to be so high considering the disparity in damage that they can output without buffs. |
STOP SAYING BRUTES CAN SURVIVE LIKE TANKS...IT IS AN EMPIRICAL FACT THEY CANNOT. They may be able to survive well enough...but that doesn't make a tanker less sturdy than they were before. Under similar conditions...(i.e. apples to apples) THERE IS NEVER A TIME BRUTES ARE AS STURDY...even with both toons at resist caps, Tanks have more DEFENSE and more HP...2 pillars of survivability that are VASTLY more important than Resists in most people's eyes...
Example...
How much resists do SR tanks have? None without Tough. Would they have made that set available to Tanks if it was not completely capable of tanking?? Nope. Now it does have a (very) minor reduced scaling resist built in when HP drops...but that was really more a QoL improvement over anything.
If you want more survival...I would support Tank Res Caps being bumped to 95% so you can stop whining about a cap that is unreachable on brutes outside of extreme edge cases that are less than 1-2% of the total time that a character is played in it's lifetime.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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Yeah I promoted the idea of SR tanks way back in 2006. I'd like to see a better taunt aura though.
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Originally Posted by planet_J
Example...
How much resists do SR tanks have? None without Tough. Would they have made that set available to Tanks if it was not completely capable of tanking?? Nope. Now it does have a (very) minor reduced scaling resist built in when HP drops...but that was really more a QoL improvement over anything. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I admit I've been away from CoH a couple of years, but I just don't get why it's even a question something needs to be done.
Four melee AT's:
1. Solo
- Scrapper: High dmg, moderate durability
- Stalker: High dmg, moderate durability
- Brute: High dmg, moderate durability
- Tanker: Mediocre dmg, high durability
2. Balanced team (good mix of common buffs)
- Scapper: Amazing dmg, good durability
- Stalker: ""
- Brute: Amazing damage, amazing durability
- Tanker: Moderate dmg, amazing durability
Maybe I'm just simple, but it just seems like something is not right here.
And yes, I realize, caps etc are not getting hit for all teams 1-50. But guys this isn't 2004. Getting to 50 is now a cakewalk and it's clear that endgame content is where more people will be spending more and more time. The only reason this isn't more pronounced, in my opinion, is that modern day CoH has got to be the most alt-friendly game out there.
Edit: Plus, we are starting to see en game content that rather ignores certain durability elements. Disappointing, to say the least. Why does a big tough brick need to run around like a little girl for some of the new cheese? Oh well, a different issue and maybe a subjective thing. 
"I have heard of a place where humans do battle in a ring of jello." -Teal'c.
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Because to admit that I am right about something is to validate me and my insane crusade for Tankers and to some people that is unacceptable.|
Originally Posted by TheNightwatch
I admit I've been away from CoH a couple of years, but I just don't get why it's even a question something needs to be done.
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Additionally, even if you agree about the problem, there's a two equally valid ways to approach a solution.
One is to nerf down Brutes, targeting either their damage or survivability potential. One is to bring Tankers up by allowing them damage potential comparable to Brutes.
My opinion and aim is the latter.
In general, most players are content with Brutes, and the devs have allowed them to be what they are and it hasn't torn the game apart. Nerfing them would only upset a large number of people, as Brutes are probably tied for most popular AT with Scrappers.
However, there are some people adamantly against any change. There are also some people who just like to argue. I remember the fuss some made over the recent Stalker changes to bring them up and people love Stalkers now. I can only hope Tankers are so lucky.
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Other than that, changes that need to be made,
Higher taunt mag for willpower.
Remove/greatly raise the aggro cap for tanks, let a tank learn how much they can handle and learn to taunt accordingly.
Swap Resist physical damage and tough hide in invulnerability for tanks. (This is really just a pet peeve of mine, they need to be switched but for reasons I'm not going into here)
Graphical Updates to attacks to make them "feel" more powerful at least.
Psst... You forgot Stalkers...
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!