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This. If I want to battle other players, I'll do it in a game where I don't have to grind or beg for loot to be competitive and can generally be assured that the only difference between opponents is skill. On the rare case that I need to scratch a PVP itch, I fire up Team Fortress.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The simple fact is I have zero interest in PvPing in any MMORPG.
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But generally, I'd rather play cooperatively than competitively. I got big into competition gaming back in college and my grades suffered pretty badly for a couple semesters because of it... that pretty much killed any taste I had for PVP.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Pre-I13, I did PVP. Didn't have any specific builds for it, really. Didn't care to.
Post-I13, on occasion I'll wander into the arena with a friend and mess around. If I ever run across someone in the zones who wants to PVP a bit, I'll mess around with them some - note it's been *months,* possibly hitting a year mark at this point, since that happened.
But why I don't now...
The number one reason is not finding people in the areas I'm interested in. I'm really *not* interested in Arena - not just for practically required builds (see Neuronia's post elsewhere with a laundry list) but because it'll be the same few people as the teams go on. To me that's just... not interesting. I don't want to get to the point where I look across and say, "Oh, that's so and so, he does such and such, use X to beat him. That's so and so, they're just not good, don't worry about them. Oh, X is here, take them out first."
The zones - especially the lower ones, Bloody Bay and Siren's, were far more fun to me. It was like walking in to a pickup football or basketball game. "Oh, who are they and what can they do?" Without the... rigidity of doing it "professionally."
I've mentioned before, to me there's also the interest in the "hunt" that - well, with the zones dead, doesn't exist. There's no "Hmm, that fire base is weakened, someone must be around - find them!"
SSKing also, to me, broke those lower zones. Bloody Bay is, in essence, a 15-30 zone, not a 15-25 zone - and think about what starts showing up there. Masterminds are the most obvious, with the final pet, but that's just too much of a range for someone at the *bottom* of the range, on DOs/low level IOs to really have fun. Siren's introduces the Tier9s of the primary... and with the newer range for APPs, the very opening of those powers. It's basically moved the upper range up into a mini-Warburg without it being free for all.
And then there's the various things put in *with* I13. Castle didn't like the "suppression" solution for Teleport (disable it completely,) yet he couldn't lower the range without it lowering the range of all *attacks* on th esame character, and never came up with a better solution - so, really, my Warshades already need an alternate travel power, and my PB (that held off a team of villains back in the SO days for several minutes) can't do a quick "TP away - heal - target - TP back and strike" in Dwarf. Things like having an *inspiration* kick in suppression. OK, makes sense for heal suppression, I suppose... but it also kicks in regen/recovery and travel suppression. And of course just having a new player come in and hit the "Wait, why do my powers no longer work like they did? Why am I running slower? Why is my tank/brute/scrapper getting held?" - the learning curve became more of a learning cliff for newer folks who might be casually interested.
Part of it goes back to before I13, as well, actually - Inventions started an arms race. But they on their own didn't do as much to damage PVP.
TLDR version, I suppose, is that the current game and environment no longer *really* supports or encourages the sort of situations I had fun with, such as my little pickup group of - I think it was my Fire/Kin corruptor and two other corrs, or a corr and a dom (it's been a while) essentially held Siren's Call against a good stream of heroes for a good while until we were basically ground down under numbers. I can't see a pure pickup group doing that now - especially with the zones as empty as they are. And the pickups like that were the most fun to me.
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I think that had more to do with the fact that zone PVP was completely new and subscriptions were at an all-time high for the months around Issue 6/City of Villains' release. (FYI, PVP zones were released in i6, so it couldn't have been i5). It died down quite a bit after about January/February 2007, then flared up for a few more months when Issue 7 brought the Recluse's Victory zone.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
However, PvP once exisited a certain way. Even on lower population servers, back in issue 6 (maybe 5 too) there were dozens of players in siren's call, dozen's in warburg, dozens in bloody bay. Not to mention the arena.
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I will admit that when PVP zones were packed, it could be a passable experience--not exactly preferable to anything else in the game, but not un-fun either. Largely, once the "new shiny" craze had died down, though, PVP zones degenerated into one or two full teams hunting down solo badge hunters that wandered in unprepared. And the hardcore PVPers' callous reception of those who stumbled into their domain did little to bridge the gap for those who may have otherwise developed an interest in such competition.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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So basically PvE'rs prefer min/maxing builds to be able to beat non moving targets who attack once an hour. And they also are able to get emotional and upset over what some kid says to them on a video game, which frankly is just sad.
@Psycho Jas
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See? People like this are why I don't PvP.|
Originally Posted by SoulTouch
So basically PvE'rs prefer min/maxing builds to be able to beat non moving targets who attack once an hour. And they also are able to get emotional and upset over what some kid says to them on a video game, which frankly is just sad.
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Because I have better things to do.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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Sigh...|
Originally Posted by SoulTouch
So basically PvE'rs prefer min/maxing builds to be able to beat non moving targets who attack once an hour. And they also are able to get emotional and upset over what some kid says to them on a video game, which frankly is just sad.
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Gheee I wonder if you pvp.... couldn't quite tell by your comment
Or how about actually reading why people don't pvp instead of assuming it's because people are "care bears." I pvpd for a long time.... I even pvpd in beta. I stopped roughly a year ago because there is no REASON to pvp. There is no organized pvp... Everyone I did pvp with has stopped pvping, but still plays the game. The rewards are laughable and easily obtainable outside of pvp. So what does that leave?? badges?? Meh. Rep?? LOL (Yeah cuz that means nothing).
And before you start commenting on min/maxing as a negative thing... uhmm THAT is what pvp is all about.. THE BUILD. Give someone 10 billion inf and they can easily pvp...it takes no more skill than any other part of this game. I hate to break it to you but even pvp is easy in this game...especially with a kited out build. So before you get on your soapbox...hard truth... pvp is not hard...and it offers nothing worthwhile as a reward.
And yes... the extreme slander, disrespect, immaturity and gank behavior of some pvpers is what does turn people off of pvp...because that behavior makes it NOT FUN for some people...and lest you forget...people play CoH to have FUN....
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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I'd disagree with that. Activity had its ups and downs, sure, but you could usually find SOME activity outside of RV until I13. And I don't just mean "On Freedom and maybe Virtue," as I could see people PVPing in the other zones on most servers (given all my alts... again, to varying degrees.)
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I think that had more to do with the fact that zone PVP was completely new and subscriptions were at an all-time high for the months around Issue 6/City of Villains' release. (FYI, PVP zones were released in i6, so it couldn't have been i5). It died down quite a bit after about January/February 2007, then flared up for a few more months when Issue 7 brought the Recluse's Victory zone.
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From another thread about pvp... |
Originally Posted by XxBudweiser8xX
^^ THIS
Try not to let the negativity of those such as @PsychoJass ruin your opinion of the game. He is a prime example of everything wrong with PvP in CoX. TRUE STORY |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Half because I don't like my powers working differently just because I walked into a different zone, and the other half because of people like this guy.
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Originally Posted by SoulTouch
So basically PvE'rs prefer min/maxing builds to be able to beat non moving targets who attack once an hour. And they also are able to get emotional and upset over what some kid says to them on a video game, which frankly is just sad.
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Where to now?
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Some good feedback here. Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to respond. So far it seems there are three major reasons why people avoid PvP; the radically different mechanics, lack of substantial rewards and player attitudes.
On mechanics:
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On lack of rewards:|
This comes as no surprise. Anyone who's read anything about PvP knows I13 was the point of "doom" for the PvP game at large. In attempting to make balancing PvP easier the Devs essentially created a completely different game by changing the fundamentals of how things work. The backlash is well documented and lamented by the few PvPers who remain. So let me ask, do you think changes to make the basic functionality of PvP more in line with the PvE game would make you more likely to give it a go? |
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This is a tricky issue. I fully understand wanting a reason to PvP besides just the competitive element. Personally, I love taking on other people and besting them but you can't expect everyone to share in that particular feeling. However, you've gotta be careful with any rewards you implement because if you're not you can quickly unbalance gameplay as a whole. For example, I took a break from CoX a while back to try out another superhero MMO. PvP there was, for the most part, very fun. But the best gear you could use in PvP could only be acquired through high level PvE raids. As a result, anyone who was into the raiding culture could access levels of power that those who had no interest in raids couldn't possibly hope to compete with. It's a bit of a reversal but illustrates my point. So what kind of rewards would attract you to PvP without disrupting game balance as a whole? |
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Example A.
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Originally Posted by SoulTouch
So basically PvE'rs prefer min/maxing builds to be able to beat non moving targets who attack once an hour. And they also are able to get emotional and upset over what some kid says to them on a video game, which frankly is just sad.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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So, what you're saying is that you lack emotions and have a need to defeat 'living' targets. |
Originally Posted by SoulTouch
So basically PvE'rs prefer min/maxing builds to be able to beat non moving targets who attack once an hour. And they also are able to get emotional and upset over what some kid says to them on a video game, which frankly is just sad.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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What is really sad to me is when a stupid kid gets elated over winning a battle - when the same kid is likely a short fat pimply faced kid who gets no attention from his parents - or else that kid would know it's better to treat your foe with respect. |
Originally Posted by SoulTouch
So basically PvE'rs prefer min/maxing builds to be able to beat non moving targets who attack once an hour. And they also are able to get emotional and upset over what some kid says to them on a video game, which frankly is just sad.
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After all, look what happened to the big bully in "The insult that made a man out of Mac!"
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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The change of mechanics is probably the biggest issue I have with the PVP system of this game. If a way could be made to make it more mechanically similar to rest of the game, without breaking anything else, I'd be happy. But I'd still spend most of my time in PVE, and therefore, wouldn't want to risk *any* chance of PVE getting broke to fix PVP.|
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
Some good feedback here. Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to respond. So far it seems there are three major reasons why people avoid PvP; the radically different mechanics, lack of substantial rewards and player attitudes.
On mechanics: |
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| On lack of rewards: |
But, for me, part of the solution might be to remove the 'leet gear' part of PVP, as someone else mentioned. And I don't mean to remove the gear as a reward, just remove it as a factor. If it's a contest of skill in design and play, and not a contest of grind time (or real money) invested, I could probably quite enjoy PVP builds to be SO limited. That may partly be a result of the fact that we have 2 different mechanical systems, too, though.
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| As for player attitudes, there's little to be done about it from a development standpoint. It's unfortunate but the idea of beating others at something, especially in an environment of anonymity, is gonna attract some grade A jerks. I fully understand why that would deter people from PvP but doing anything about it is really a matter of community, not design. Perhaps a full time moderation system could help curb the problem. Have the GMs appoint mods who have the power to review and discipline players who violate the harassment policy while engaged in PvP. |
The super important thing about smack talk is to ignore them. "Don't feed the trolls." You just can't let yourself to be goaded into giving them attention. OK 'nuff said there.
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| So let me ask, do you think changes to make the basic functionality of PvP more in line with the PvE game would make you more likely to give it a go? |
I don't think so. PvE isn't balanced, not even slightly. So I'd expect a PvP experience using the same rules to just be a mess. Which the original PvP kinda was.
Mind you, the old rules were more fun than the current rules. But not enough to make me want to give PvP a try.
Repeating: Make maps with objectives. Ganking isn't fun.
My personal recommendation is to go for something much more like a regular FPS. Add aiming. Balance Hit Points and resistances in PvP so it's sane. Reduce the options available in PvP: this means no set bonuses, no inspirations and maybe no Enhancements either. Reduce the level ranges and powers available. Effectively "weaponize" your toon so it's much less customizable and more like a standard model; that will cut down on unpleasant surprises and give you less to learn in PvP.
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| It's a bit of a reversal but illustrates my point. So what kind of rewards would attract you to PvP without disrupting game balance as a whole? |
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And that is exactly what the majority of the PvE community has done. Instead of going into PvP zones where they allow themselves to become targets of obnoxious wannabes, PvEers ignore the PvP zones altogether leaving the inconsequential nobodies to stew in their own venom and bile unable to find a targets upon which to vent their spleens.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
The super important thing about smack talk is to ignore them. "Don't feed the trolls." You just can't let yourself to be goaded into giving them attention.
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Imagine how frustrating it must be for them when they realize they are being ignored in the game just like they get in real life and they are just as powerless to change it because PvP in this game can't be stumbled into by accident.
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Mechanics "should" be similar enough that changing zones does not change the play experience. That's pretty plain and simple.|
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
On mechanics:
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| On lack of rewards: |
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| On player attitudes |
Comments of this sort were allowed, "Fluffy the Bunny really kicked my butt hard when I was defending the pylon I dropped in the Teleport room WTG Fluffy!"
We only raided with SGs that had similar standards. Our SG leader would ask the opposing SG not to allow players with poor attitudes to join the next raid and if they didn't comply with that request we didn't invite that SG to base raid with us any more.
We never lacked for challengers and had at least 1 raid a week end, every week end, if not more.
My suggestion to solve the base raid issue would be to add a "door" or "room" to the main SG that allowed the players into a "danger room" base below the main base that uses the old pathing rules specifically for base raiding.
I kind of worry that it's not worth the development time as we lack a PvP community precisely because of the issues that have been mentioned here.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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300 posts worth of opinions on this subject.|
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
So, in an effort to better understand why people are adverse to giving PvP a whirl I'd like to get your opinions on the matter. What's keeping you away from this aspect of the game?
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=288138
Honestly?
I don't pvp because the developers are inept at making anything work properly. They guaranteed pvp would be broken forever.
It's as simple as that.
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i've recently seen you in several threads insisting the Devs are incompetent fools who somehow accidentally kept the game going for over eight years despite totally ignoring the players and vindictively trying to make the game worse when they don't outright ignore them. You insist they can't do anything right, but i've come to suspect that anything that doesn't directly cater to exactly what you personally want is automatically wrong and a sign of incompetence in your eyes. If they knew what they were doing everyone would do exactly what you want them to do and nothing else. i call bovine feces on that.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Honestly?
I don't pvp because the developers are inept at making anything work properly. They guaranteed pvp would be broken forever. It's as simple as that. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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In all honesty, where I13 PvP is concerned, this is plain truth. They put together a broken system, they were told it was broken by the community they were supposedly serving with the change, and they mulishly stuck to and saw that dreck through to completion.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i've recently seen you in several threads insisting the Devs are incompetent fools who somehow accidentally kept the game going for over eight years despite totally ignoring the players and vindictively trying to make the game worse when they don't outright ignore them. You insist they can't do anything right, but i've come to suspect that anything that doesn't directly cater to exactly what you personally want is automatically wrong and a sign of incompetence in your eyes. If they knew what they were doing everyone would do exactly what you want them to do and nothing else. i call bovine feces on that.
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I've seen them purposely put together complicated and/or gimmicky solutions to simple problems for the purpose of "different" and I was then unsurprised that they failed to solve the problem or were buggy as an ant hill.
On the flip side we have now a different crop of devs so I'm taking a wait and see attitude on any upcoming blaster changes and I'll decide how I feel then, after I take those changes for a spin. As far as I can tell this crop of devs is 1 for 2. Stalker changes were good. Grav changes were a lot of dev time for not so much improvement,
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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The part where it involves being in conflict with other players.
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
So, in an effort to better understand why people are adverse to giving PvP a whirl I'd like to get your opinions on the matter. What's keeping you away from this aspect of the game?
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Customer Support ****** me off.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i've recently seen you in several threads insisting the Devs are incompetent fools who somehow accidentally kept the game going for over eight years
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Also honestly, I am truly amazed that this game has not died yet. I was happy about that fact, though not delusional about the problems this game obviously has and their lack of solutions to them or even apparent attempts at most problems, but now I would like to see this game die just to show them that they can't get away with ignoring issues until they start causing severe problems.
Also, I would get a bit of satisfaction form being proven right beyond a shadow of a doubt and seeing them have no way of bringing in more money until they frantically put out another game, because CoH is Paragon's only product even announced as close to being released.(The latter is because Customer Support ****** me off. I never wanted that before today.)
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I wholeheartedly agree.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
In all honesty, where I13 PvP is concerned, this is plain truth. They put together a broken system, they were told it was broken by the community they were supposedly serving with the change, and they mulishly stuck to and saw that dreck through to completion.
I've seen them purposely put together complicated and/or gimmicky solutions to simple problems for the purpose of "different" and I was then unsurprised that they failed to solve the problem or were buggy as an ant hill. |
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
On the flip side we have now a different crop of devs
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I have no hope for the future of this game.
I used to have "a fool's hope", but Customer Support has taught me "all hope is lost".
CROATOA (left behind on my keyboard as I vanish without a trace someday)
TRANSLATION: the little punks with "my e-peen is the biggest" attitudes are the ones that ruin PvP for alot of people that would like to try PvP, but wont because they dont want to have to deal with the morons....
And Several people are also wondering what happen to the very TEAM ORIENTIED Base Raiding that we were promised with the release of CoV.... The very same CoV so many of us only purchased so we could have the PvP/Base Raid asspect of the game.
Gee, I wonder if the devs are EVER going to come forward and tell us whats going on with these huh?