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I'm not naming names, but the 2 biggest head honchos of Paragon Studios(or at least just of CoH) were there since practically the beginning at Cryptic.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
The following devs are no longer with the game (too lazy to get real names for the ones I don't know):
Statesman/Jack Emmert Back Alley Brawler Castle Lord Recluse (both of them) Sexy Jay Just to name a few of the big names. Probably also a bunch of these folks went with Cryptic to "the competition". You seem to be very unhappy with the game lately. Perhaps it's time for you to take a break instead of sniping at other forumites and actively driving new players away from the game. |
and even since they moved form Cryptic, the game has not gotten clearly better.
Sure, we have "more", but that "more" just breaks the old stuff and never performs quite right itself.
And yeah, I'm cooling down. I'm not sniping so much and being more apologetic.
I still am very unhappy at being cut off even from my global friends in game though right now.
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Positron and War Witch, yeah. I'm not saying it's a brand new crowd, but the game is definitely not moving forward with the same vision that it had when, say, I first joined the game in Issue 4/5. If it were, I can't imagine I would have stayed with it for so long. The game was honestly a little dull before Issue 6/7/8 came along (never mind City of Villains), so in that respect it has clearly improved substantially. The fact is that we've gotten a lot of stuff that we've asked for over the years (power customization, player-created content such as it is, multitudes of power sets, the ability to redo previously-played content, tons of costume sets....).|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I'm not naming names, but the 2 biggest head honchos of Paragon Studios were there since practically the beginning at Cryptic.
and even since they moved form Cryptic, the game has not gotten clearly better. Sure, we have "more", but that "more" just breaks the old stuff and never performs quite right itself. And yeah, I'm cooling down. I'm not sniping so much and being more apologetic. I still am very unhappy at being cut off even from my global friends in game though right now. |
You really can't blame them too much for new stuff breaking old stuff. I know it sounds like a pass but it's really true. The legacy game code is a tangled spaghetti mess of undocumented code produced mostly by people who moved on years ago, it's gonna be near impossible to introduce new code into that without creating all sorts of weird errors (which is going to happen under the best conditions anyway).
There are certainly criticisms that can be made though regarding the dev team's propensity for pushing patches/Issues to Live despite the fact that there are known game-breaking bugs present (the philosophy of it being better to push out a product that doesn't work right for some people and fix it later, versus delaying it for everybody). But it's still not black and white, and you'll be a lot happier once you realize that.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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All true, but I won't be happier.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Positron and War Witch, yeah. I'm not saying it's a brand new crowd, but the game is definitely not moving forward with the same vision that it had when, say, I first joined the game in Issue 4/5. If it were, I can't imagine I would have stayed with it for so long. The game was honestly a little dull before Issue 6/7/8 came along (never mind City of Villains), so in that respect it has clearly improved substantially. The fact is that we've gotten a lot of stuff that we've asked for over the years (power customization, player-created content such as it is, multitudes of power sets, the ability to redo previously-played content, tons of costume sets....).
You really can't blame them too much for new stuff breaking old stuff. I know it sounds like a pass but it's really true. The legacy game code is a tangled spaghetti mess of undocumented code produced mostly by people who moved on years ago, it's gonna be near impossible to introduce new code into that without creating all sorts of weird errors (which is going to happen under the best conditions anyway). There are certainly criticisms that can be made though regarding the dev team's propensity for pushing patches/Issues to Live despite the fact that there are known game-breaking bugs present (the philosophy of it being better to push out a product that doesn't work right for some people and fix it later, versus delaying it for everybody). But it's still not black and white, and you'll be a lot happier once you realize that. |
I'll be complacent.
There is only one state that is good enough: "hopeful".
this game hasn't had me hopeful since Freedom was announced(no sub WOOHOO!) because everything after the F2P announcements was "that's cool, but what about fixing this or making everything perform as it did just a few months ago?" or "more stuff? doesn't look that interesting because it's more smashing and lethal damage types"(melee set disinterest because of lack of imagination on the devs' part).
I'm definitely not hopeful when looking back on their history.
It will take a new game to make me hopeful probably. That's not good for CoH.
Yes, I haven't taken a break yet. I will soon. I'm just looking for "non-inflammatory" civil posts to comment on.
This is the point where someone's supposed to jump in and ask if they can have your stuff.
I've always wanted to make one of those posts, and never had the chance. But now it seems more depressing than sarcastically, triumphantly dismissive.
Someone else want to take this? I've got plenty of stuff anyway.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
To me, the question is not "Why don't I PvP?" it is "Why should I?"
There is no reason to. PvP is just there for people who want to play an entirely different game inside CoH with little to no rewards. There is little fun, to me, in just fighting other players. That gets old real fast, unless there's some objective or similar to fulfill. But we don't even have that, even if the obvious CoH flavor would be opposed Mayhem/Safeguard missions. But all we have is a gank the other guy game.
So, why bother?
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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See, that I'd play. Would it really be that different from a "capture the flag" mode that so many other games (games with vibrant, active PvP communities, by the way) have?|
Originally Posted by McNum
There is no reason to. PvP is just there for people who want to play an entirely different game inside CoH with little to no rewards. There is little fun, to me, in just fighting other players. That gets old real fast, unless there's some objective or similar to fulfill. But we don't even have that, even if the obvious CoH flavor would be opposed Mayhem/Safeguard missions. But all we have is a gank the other guy game.
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Come to think of it, I'd play anything involving new mayhem missions, PvP or (even better) not. Maybe make a few different maps so it's not always a bank; vary the theme a little, but keep the basic formula. Seriously, devs: Mayhems are hands-down the best thing about playing a villain. You want people to come back to redside? THERE'S YOUR ANSWER.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
To the OPs question...
I don't PvP much because I don't care for the mental 12 year olds and D-Bags that seem to frequently gravitate towards it.
Yeah, if I go into a PvP zone, then I know I'm fair game. I'm not going to cry foul if someone attacks me while I'm trying to get a Shivan Shard or what have you. Nor am I going to get worked up if I go head to head with someone and they beat me. Hell, I'd like to hope I could at least put up a decent fight and we can both walk away afterwards going 'Hey, good fight.'
Instead, what I usually ended up with was 'HAHA loser!' or 'PWND B****!!!11!11', or a number of other obscenities that I have had thrown at me, even on the rare occasions when I came out on top.
Sadly, no amount of altering code, fixing game mechanics, or balancing ATs will ever fix that problem, and it will always be there no matter what game you play.
"The part of me that is leaving... is going to miss the part of me that is staying..."
I do.
Just not frequently. I always looked at PvP as just another thing I could spend my gaming time doing. It is no more or less important to me than any other activity.
When I'm in the mood to PvP and can find someone to fight, I PvP.
When I'm not in the mood, I don't.
I enjoy it, it's just not the sole reason I play the game.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Yeah, mostly I"m with Claws. But I have to add, I'm also with Rosswell and McNum. PVP safeguard/mayhem sounds like lots of fun.
Of course, I've always thought the Gladiators PVP sounded fun and I've never been able to even try that. I don't have even the slightest clue what kind of a mechanic that system even uses. I'd just like to try and get some of those fun badges and at least experience it once. I any not care to try it a second time, but curiosity alone makes me intrigued.
I'll just link to my thoughts on a very similar thread I made about this subject a few months ago. If you have a lot of spare time to read all 300 posts it does have a lot of info on the subject.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
Used to pvp quite a bit when it first came out, then a group of morons decided it would be fun if they ganked anyone who came in zone, so quite a few stopped pvp'ing, last I heard was the ganking group crying because nobody came in zone anymore. Not sure what they expected but some people's mentality is beyond understanding.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
It's odd that threads like this one seem to have come up fairly regularly in CoH's past and I find it equally interesting that generally the same, underlying reason is cited by a large proportion of the people that reply:
"I don't PVP because I have no interest in fighting other players".
What I find incredible is this single (and fairly crucial) fact is always missed or forgotten by successive devs and avid PVP players alike. We don't PVP because we simply don't want to. That's it. The end. No amount of changes to mechanics, zones, game types, events, rewards and / or mission structures that force us into a PVP zone are going to change that, so please. Get the message. Move on.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
First, I'll let you know I'm new. (2 weeks now with the game.) Second, I recently started another thread in this forum about PvP, looking for what opportunities were out there, because I feel it should be part of the experience in this game.
Now, with that little bit of history out of the way, I'll let you know why I WON'T be getting into PvP.
I really don't like how what little PvP is in the game was implemented. Lets get away from the wonky mechanics where everything works one way in PvE and another in PvP. My issue is that I was looking for a heroes vs villains experience. I don't want arena battles. That's not what being a superhero is about. PvP zones are a little better, but it still really isn't what I was looking for. I wanted to see villains launch schemes, and heroes go to stop them. Have a villain team rob a bank. Have heroes get in their way and try to send them off to jail. Have villains break into the prison to release criminals en-mass. Have heroes go to stop the plot.
I wanted heroes vs villains, but that doesn't seem to be, or ever have been a goal of this game. It's a missed opportunity in my book, but one it seems the game just wasn't designed to support at all. I wanted PvP to be part of accomplishing other goals, not the goal itself. In the history of the game, base raids sound like the best that there was to offer, but of course that wasn't pitting heroes vs villains either, but instead being a free for all based on personal greed, even for the heroes, so it missed the mark too in my book.
The fact I've seen so many opportunities to team up with villains of the past couple weeks, and no way to try and stop their schemes was a huge disappointment for me. My expectations where just very different.
I don't like that PvP seems built for endgame. I think there should have been level 5, 10, 15, 20...etc missions with chances for PvP between heroes and villains. As it is, it sounds like people built for PvP just go stomp on everyone willing to step foot in a PvP zone. That doesn't sound fun at all.
What I'd really like is some server changing plotpoint building up to a set of limited time hero vs villain missions. Have the villains go try to blow up Terra Volta instead of NPC sky raiders. A hero-villain battle is scheduled for a certain time, and it could decide the fate of the zone where either Terra Volta is destroyed, or continues to exist.
I've never been into PvP in any game I've played except first-person shooter-type games. I've done it in other games but I never cared for it. Any MMO that forces me to do it or doesn't allow me to opt out of it will not be played by me.
I have defended myself in Bloody Bay in a fight that lasted all of 5 seconds in what I assume was a mistake on the part of the villain that attacked the party I was with at the time. That's as close as I've ever come to PvP in City and is more than I really wanted.
As others have said, no change the Devs make will intice me to try it.
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Yep, I only pvp in FPS and racing games simply because of the mechanics making my own skill the absolute defining factor(when latency is not a factor) and the "practically no consequences" nature to it.|
Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel
I've never been into PvP in any game I've played except first-person shooter-type games.
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When there are no consequences, you will get those who take out anybody they can just to try to anger them, but it is hard to take offense at something that doesn't punish you.
Pvp in numbers based games, like this and most MMOs, is just painful to play, even if there are no real consequences. The mechanics just don't make it accessible and balanced even close to as well as FPS and racing games.
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There are a number of problems with what you want. |
Originally Posted by Shockwave007
That's not what being a superhero is about. PvP zones are a little better, but it still really isn't what I was looking for. I wanted to see villains launch schemes, and heroes go to stop them. Have a villain team rob a bank. Have heroes get in their way and try to send them off to jail. Have villains break into the prison to release criminals en-mass. Have heroes go to stop the plot.
I wanted heroes vs villains, but that doesn't seem to be, or ever have been a goal of this game. It's a missed opportunity in my book, but one it seems the game just wasn't designed to support at all. I wanted PvP to be part of accomplishing other goals, not the goal itself. In the history of the game, base raids sound like the best that there was to offer, but of course that wasn't pitting heroes vs villains either, but instead being a free for all based on personal greed, even for the heroes, so it missed the mark too in my book. |
1) When the game and PvP were originally designed....there were no villains yet. There were no player controlled villains to fight until Issue 6.
2) Given this playerbase's general attitude toward PvP, if the game had forced them into it by making it an inescapable part of the PvE game....well, to put it bluntly, this game would have gone under years ago.
3) When the game was originally designed, the devs put no thought into how player character powers would function on other player characters, probably because they didn't realize the players would even WANT PvP.
As an example: Telekinesis, a Mind Control power, is a toggle hold. If you stacked enough holds on a melee character to break through their protection and slapped Telekinesis on them, they were held for as long as your endurance held out. You could do that and then Brawl them to death and there was nothing they could do about it unless they happened to have 2 or 3 Breakfrees on them (which most melee characters did not).
2nd example: When Villains were introduced, the Stalker AT was capable of being completely invisible, and able to one-shot anything but a Scrapper or Tank out of the hero ATs. Literally, one shot kills coming from enemies you could not see coming.
Balance problems like those 2 led to a lot of changes to the entire game, until they separated PvE and PvP in order to stop nerfing PvE powers because they were broken in PvP.
In order for the game to have what you would like, it would have to be designed that way from the ground up. If you changed it into that at this point in the game's life and forced people to PvP as part of a regular mission or task force, I would wager that the game would steadily bleed players until it got shut down a short time later.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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1) I know villains weren't originally in the game. I didn't play even when they were. I just picked up the game 2 weeks ago. I just came in remembering there was a big villains release, and had the expectations that heroes and villains would actually compete with each other, not just be two separate areas, and then combine up for big missions.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
There are a number of problems with what you want.
1) When the game and PvP were originally designed....there were no villains yet. There were no player controlled villains to fight until Issue 6. 2) Given this playerbase's general attitude toward PvP, if the game had forced them into it by making it an inescapable part of the PvE game....well, to put it bluntly, this game would have gone under years ago. 3) When the game was originally designed, the devs put no thought into how player character powers would function on other player characters, probably because they didn't realize the players would even WANT PvP. As an example: Telekinesis, a Mind Control power, is a toggle hold. If you stacked enough holds on a melee character to break through their protection and slapped Telekinesis on them, they were held for as long as your endurance held out. You could do that and then Brawl them to death and there was nothing they could do about it unless they happened to have 2 or 3 Breakfrees on them (which most melee characters did not). 2nd example: When Villains were introduced, the Stalker AT was capable of being completely invisible, and able to one-shot anything but a Scrapper or Tank out of the hero ATs. Literally, one shot kills coming from enemies you could not see coming. Balance problems like those 2 led to a lot of changes to the entire game, until they separated PvE and PvP in order to stop nerfing PvE powers because they were broken in PvP. In order for the game to have what you would like, it would have to be designed that way from the ground up. If you changed it into that at this point in the game's life and forced people to PvP as part of a regular mission or task force, I would wager that the game would steadily bleed players until it got shut down a short time later. |
2) Doesn't need to be inescapable. Noboday has to fight giant octopuses or burning buildings either. I'm simply saying it would have been nice to have some options that were available out there. Have villains actually trigger events that set off alarms for heroes to react to. I'm not a fan of high level Pvp zones, but I would love to see missions that were set up to encourage PPV encounters within the city for those players who are interested. Doesn't even need to be a fight. Have actions by villains affect heroes and open events, and vice versa.
3) I realize PvP was a complete afterthought, and balance has never been there. Doesn't mean I'm just accepting of it. I'm very disappointed in this part of the implementation of the game, even as someone who just started.
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My thoughts exactly. I tried a thing or two a couple years ago and I just never found pvping any fun at all.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I don't like playing against player characters. There is no change the devs can make to PvP that will make me want to participate.
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The only times I would be in a pvp zone or and arena in the past would be for badge related reasons.
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This is a good example why I think the PvP game should be "weaponized." We won't bring our own characters into PvP, we'll bring a pre-built, pre-selected character that's designed for PvP and that we don't have to grind up. There's just no way to balance certain powers (like Telekinesis) without making them pointless.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
As an example: Telekinesis, a Mind Control power, is a toggle hold. If you stacked enough holds on a melee character to break through their protection and slapped Telekinesis on them, they were held for as long as your endurance held out.
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| 2nd example: When Villains were introduced, the Stalker AT was capable of being completely invisible, and able to one-shot anything but a Scrapper or Tank out of the hero ATs. Literally, one shot kills coming from enemies you could not see coming. |
These abilities are balanced *differently*. It's not just a damage vs. hit points equation. Spies for example are not actually that popular. They're hard to play and it takes quite a bit of skill to pull off well.
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Originally Posted by gameboy1234
This is a good example why I think the PvP game should be "weaponized." We won't bring our own characters into PvP, we'll bring a pre-built, pre-selected character that's designed for PvP and that we don't have to grind up.
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So something like gladiator matches in the Arena except you are picking one pregenerated character and directly running it as if it were a regulat character.
I like this idea.
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The Tyrant Personal Mission shows that you can play as someone else and even get their powers. So you could pick pregenerated characters and get it to work now.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
So something like gladiator matches in the Arena except you are picking one pregenerated character and directly running it as if it were a regulat character.
I like this idea. |
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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Take this further. Instead of sticking pregens in an arena, what if certain people could play "Advisaries" where they take over "NPC's" from quests to add some intelligence to them. Sure, they will lose to the PC's most likely, but playing having intelligence enemies instead of dumb AI enemies appeals to me.|
Originally Posted by McNum
The Tyrant Personal Mission shows that you can play as someone else and even get their powers. So you could pick pregenerated characters and get it to work now.
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Perhaps start with certain enemies so that specific power sets are tested. Handle it like PvE instead of PvP as far as how powers work.
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I've got to call you on this one - not the balance issues, but... |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
3) When the game was originally designed, the devs put no thought into how player character powers would function on other player characters, probably because they didn't realize the players would even WANT PvP.
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Well, here. From 2002 - pre-beta (look at that interface!) specifically 8 minutes in:
"The third game play feature is the arena, an area where one player can face off against another player, team against another team in a variety of game environments. There'll be tournaments, ranking systems and so forth for people that enjoy facing off against live opponents."
...so saying "they didn't realize players would want it" is, quite simply, false.
(I just happened across this, btw, wasn't actually looking - it was from a related video on the echoey G+ hangout thing.)
I took my main, a Mind PermaDom into PvP. The changes in it's powers were considerable, it played completely different, my power choices etc didn't work. Durations of Mezes changed.
I have no interest in making a second build and spending the time to IO to check out PvP further.
My character should of been at least competitive, with player skill beating me.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
Statesman/Jack Emmert
Back Alley Brawler
Castle
Lord Recluse (both of them)
Sexy Jay
Just to name a few of the big names. Probably also a bunch of these folks went with Cryptic to "the competition".
You seem to be very unhappy with the game lately. Perhaps it's time for you to take a break instead of sniping at other forumites and actively driving new players away from the game.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...