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You're missing the point. If the xenomorphs did not come about until THAT SPECIFIC INSTANCE in Prometheus, then by a simple matter of time the Predators couldn't have taken them for use as 'the ultimate prey' on ancient earth. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Doesn't matter if it was an accident or deliberate, and we have no reason to believe the Predator race didn't have some sort of contact with the Engineers, either by direct association or by accidental discovery.
It is not hard to believe that one party would claim to be the inventor/creator of something another party discovered/created. After all isn't that what Weylund's been doing all along? Stealing alien secrets and developing them as their own inventions. |
The black goo is predisposed to be a bio weapon of the engineers. But we don't know if the bio weapon is actually intended to create xenomorphs as we know them or if it was a fluke from the chain of events in Prometheus (Which is Goo + humans + spawning = Goo baby monster + engineer = Xenomorph). Like the stuff does xenomorph-like things, but we can't know if it was always intended to create them in the form we know them.
So, yes, it's very possible that it completely retcons the back history in AvP.
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Do we really want to get into a canonical debate on this? I partially agree with you, but if we throw out the AvPs, do we throw out everything past Alien? I want to keep Aliens! I don't want to keep Alien Cubed and the godawful Resurrection!
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
2. Ridley Scott made this movie. What we see is canon. The AvP........not so much. Throw it out now, he's retconned it. Sorry. I always saw the AvP world like a comicbook crossover event at best and disconnected from the original series. But that's just me.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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But don't forget the Alien depiction in the Face Chamber, like I did. Clearly, Aliens did exist before that room was built.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
So, yes, it's very possible that it completely retcons the back history in AvP.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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I will soften my statement as well, given the relief in the chamber. I hadn't thought about it when I wrote up my thoughts. |
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
But don't forget the Alien depiction in the Face Chamber, like I did. Clearly, Aliens did exist before that room was built.
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That said, I still (somewhat softer now) stand by the overall idea, that Ridley has tweaked the canon whether people like it or not.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
My personal take on the canon, which is highly biased, is just Alien, Aliens, Predator, Predator 2, and Prometheus.
As far as I'm concerned, nothing happened past Aliens and there was never a movie crossing the two franchises. It's made me a happier person for it.
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Not really. I'm saying none of us knows enough about that universe to be able to say which came first. There are too many unknowns about the origins of all the involved races/species.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
You're missing the point.
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Well right but you could concede the possibility instead of outright disavowing it :P I do agree though, it's too vague to really say for certain. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Not really. I'm saying none of us knows enough about that universe to be able to say which came first. There are too many unknowns about the origins of all the involved races/species.
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I just hope.
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Sorry didn't mean to disavow it, poor choice of words on my part.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Well right but you could concede the possibility instead of outright disavowing it :P I do agree though, it's too vague to really say for certain.
I just hope. |
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Man, you lied to me like somebody here lied to me about Immortals being a better movie than 300. |
Originally Posted by Fista
Aha! Heh. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Um... no.
This thing is a steaming pile of crap. Bad dialog, bad acting, plot holes you can drop the Sun through, all the characters seem to have an I.Q. of 65. I was wondering how they get dressed in the morning they are so stupid. The move just flat out makes no sense. Just truly terrible. "It's beautiful" No it's not you moron! It's a giant (and I kid you not) wang! Wait! What? Now it has wings and a (woman's piece of anatomy) for a face! It's making warning noises to back off. Yes by all means go try to pet it. AND THAT'S NOT EVEN THE STUPIDEST PART OF THE MOVIE. |
I really enjoyed Prometheus
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
Ok, I haven't seen the movie yet, but in regards to the xenomorphs/Engineers/Predators...
Is it possible that the xenos existed, the Predators used them, but the Engineers were tinkering with an offshoot/subspecies of them? And this goo/different facehugger results/etc being mentioned, could that be the result of said tinkering?
Like say, the xenos were an indigi species somewhere and both races ended up using them for various things? That could explain the xeno bas relief on the wall.
Something else...what if the Engineers weren't actually creating species from scratch, but were acting more along the lines of the various races from David Brin's Uplift series? Modifying/improving/making catgirls with what was already there?
It's just easier to say the AvP movies were crap writing in all regards and ignore them.
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Except its not just AvP movies. It's also the Predators in Predator 2. They have a xeno skull in their trophy room. Now granted, that doesn't mean they bred them on Earth and had their hunts for 'em here, but it does mean they are familiar with the species.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
It's just easier to say the AvP movies were crap writing in all regards and ignore them.
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The whole inclusion of the Predators into the Alien mythos was a side effect of a single prop in the Predators 2 movie, a Xenomorph skull. From there the whole AvP concept spawn into comics, video games and eventually a pair of so-so movies. It's a studio construct to join two somewhat successful series. It's the Freddy Vs Jason of the SciFi genre.
It's like ET being in the Star Wars prequel or the Enterprise and Serenity appearing in the new BSG so somebody proceeds to build an entire mythos around those cameos and them get upset when their creators contradict the fandom. Heck Batman fought the Predators in comics. So did Superman. Lets make that cannon.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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I recall Bats also fought the Xeno's|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Heck Batman fought the Predators in comics. So did Superman. Lets make that cannon.
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Yes that's xeno from the Joker
And Green Lantern
Judge Dredd ...
WildCats...
Witchblade ...
The Terminator ...
Even the Buffy comic, sort of.
Of course the first crossover I remember was X-Men vs the Brood.
I hope there is a Prometheus 2 and that lady from Girl with the Dragon Tattoo blows up the Engineers homeworld.
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Corrected.
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
I hope there is a Prometheus 2 and that lady from Girl with the Dragon Tattoo blows up the Engineers homeworld with a Death Star.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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That and the Geologist was supposed to be in tune with the puppies, as he created them. In the beginning, he acted like he knew everything the puppies were relaying back to the ship, yet he was the one that got lost. Made no sense.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
The Biologist didn't seem too smart about unidentified animals, I grant you.
The plot hole that bugged me most was the "search" for the Biologist and Geologist. Didn't you have a video feed from them 24/7? Isn't it recorded? You should know EXACTLY what happened to them before you go off on your search. Also, how did those guys get lost int he first place? No one from the ship could have walked them through it? They had a freakin' 3D map of every part of the complex they were in! |
As for the creation of humans, me and a freind were debating it at the end of the movie.
His take was that it was an intended act, in which one of the Engineers sacrificed himself to create life on Earth with the black goo from the ornate ritual-like jar.
Mine was the creation of life on Earth wasn't intended, and the result of the bad batch of coffee he drank which may have been tampered with by another Engineer (just as David did later), and the ornate jar was nothing more than an alien Scooby-Doo thermos or office coffee mug.
I agree with a lot of what was said here - it was an entertaining movie, but it was also rife with plot holes and unanswered questions. I'm hoping someone will make a sequel that explains things and ties up the plot threads.
Also, the inconsistancies with Alien and Aliens bothered me, but maybe those inconsistancies were intentional since this was supposedly not set in the same universe as Alien, which is just annoying given all the similarities.
My biggest complaints are the change in location as well as the change in form of the creatures. However, maybe there is an explanation for this we just have been told. For one thing, the planetoid featured in Alien and Aliens was designated LV-421, but the planetoid Prometheus landed on was designated LV-233 (or 223 I forget which). I supposed this could be a way of showing that either...
A) The Engineers were conducting bioweapons experiments in more than one location, and the experiments on LV-421 were focused on the xenomorph form we are more familiar with. The pilot of that ship, which was carrying thousands of xenomorph eggs, died while taking off and the ship crashed.
or,
B) When the xenomorphs (the ones we're familiar with) got loose on LV-233, one ship managed to take off, but crashed on LV-421 when the pilot died. The pilot was infected with a queen embryo and she was the origin of the leathery eggs in the ship on LV-421.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
I think Prometheus definitely takes place in the same universe as Alien (we do have Old Man Weylan of Weylan-Yutani fame, after all), but the change of location and life cycle are intentional.
They didn't want the movie to end with a scene of the egg chamber from the first film (well, at least Damon Lindelof didn't want that), so they told a similar story about ancient astronauts and bioweapons.
If they told a tight story using those elements, I wouldn't care. I just don't like the plot holes and the generally unintelligent reactions of the characters (No weapons on a scientific expedition, indeed!).
EDIT: Here's the quote I was referring to:
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| Lindelof clarified, "If the ending to [Prometheus] is just going to be the room that John Hurt walks into that's full of [alien] eggs [in Alien], there's nothing interesting in that, because we know where it's going to end. Good stories, you don't know where they're going to end."[77] "A true prequel should essentially proceed [sic] the events of the original film, but be about something entirely different, feature different characters, have an entirely different theme, although it takes place in that same world."[69] |
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Yeah, the canon itself works well enough since this was an entirely different place (a moon even, where the site of the Engineer ship in Alien was a planet), so there could've been any number of variations between those 'batches' of Aliens. The plot holes and sheer brainlessness of the expedition members, though...yeah, not so much.
Well okay, so the Captain and his pilots at least had their wits about them. But that was about it.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
I think Lindelof decided to to the script he wanted, rather than the one the fans wanted. He wanted to invent his own (less good) xenomorphs, so he moved everything to the next planet over.
I think what the fans would have wanted was a prequal that lead directly into Alien, but shed new light on proceedings, causing us to look at the original film in a new light.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Honestly, Prometheus could have been a sequal, a prequel, or something else entirely, for all the difference it makes. It's just a series of unrelated events that just happen to be set in the same continuity as the Alien franchise.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
If they told a tight story using those elements, I wouldn't care.
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Considering how much they go out of their way to be not-Alien for the most of the film, the end scene comes across as particular ham-fisted and, to be frank, unnecessary.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Of course, Alien was a rip off of Doctor Who - The Ark in Space anyway.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Personally, I didn't care whether the movie was a prequel that lead into Alien, as long as it was a good movie.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I think what the fans would have wanted was a prequal that lead directly into Alien, but shed new light on proceedings, causing us to look at the original film in a new light.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
I get that they felt the Alien lifecycle was played out, but what they gave us was something incomprehensible.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."