Hybrid I am disappoint
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-06-02 07:40 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Would you mind linking to the promise?
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Originally Posted by Dz131
What was promised was a toggle that always buffed your character.
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I got the info from this thread:|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Would you mind linking to the promise?
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=287451
When it says a toggle it's kind of implied that it'll work like all other toggles in the game and not detoggle automatic after a period.
edit: and I believe that's how they worked it beta but I can't say for certain because I wasnt here
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You understand that pretty much everything is subject to change before it leaves Beta, right? That's sort of the point.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
I got the info from this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=287451 When it says a toggle it's kind of implied that it'll work like all other toggles in the game and not detoggle automatic after a period. edit: and I believe that's how they worked it beta but I can't say for certain because I wasnt here |
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Allow me to point you to Phase Shift and Hibernate, which have worked exactly as Hybrid does since before incarnates were even mentioned. I know, it's a small point. But there IS precedent for this, is all I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
When it says a toggle it's kind of implied that it'll work like all other toggles in the game and not detoggle automatic after a period.
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good point|
Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum
Allow me to point you to Phase Shift and Hibernate, which have worked exactly as Hybrid does since before incarnates were even mentioned. I know, it's a small point. But there IS precedent for this, is all I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
You understand that pretty much everything is subject to change before it leaves Beta, right? That's sort of the point.
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Yes, and Beta does not constitute a promise.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
Well yeah it's pretty obvious it's changed. Changed to destiny 2.0
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
im disappointed in hybrid also, it doesnt work anything like the way the devs. said it would.
It works exactly as described in the last "Hybrid Changes" thread in the beta forums.
What disappoints me are players who see an initial concept of a power...fail to follow it's changes on an open beta server....and then rant how it is not what it was originally.
Hybrid has seen many changes/compromises. The end result is based off input and testing by players and devs....if you don't like the end result...beta is where you should have been giving your discontent/suggestions/feedback.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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They said it would be a toggle... a toggle that drains End so hard, that only specialized End-building builds could run it continuously -- everyone else had to toggle it on as needed for as long as they could handle. It was always envisioned and presented as a power you do not have on all the time, even when it was a toggle.|
Originally Posted by PoisonHeart
im disappointed in hybrid also, it doesnt work anything like the way the devs. said it would.
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At the urging of players complaining about how they didn't like the End-drain (and also because of balance issues since there were some powersets that could easily handle the End-drain), the original schema was tossed. That left two options:
1. A non-End-draining toggle or Auto Power with greatly reduced power effects; or,
2. A click or limited-time-toggle power with a limited duration that retains the original strength.
The Devs listened to feedback and chose #2.
Obviously, not what some wanted. Some would have rather had option #1.
Others, ignoring just how over powered it would be, wanted a continuous strong effect in a toggle with little End-drain. That wasn't ever gonna happen, and the Devs made that abundantly clear.
So, if it doesn't work as originally planned (huge End drain toggle), it's because the Beta players vetoed it, not because the Devs are capricious gods.
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I think it is fine to continue to give feedback and opinions even if it is live. I love Hybrid, although I am concerned about Melee, Control, and Support Radial. I'll be keeping an eye on them and providing my opinions over the next month or two.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Hybrid has seen many changes/compromises. The end result is based off input and testing by players and devs....if you don't like the end result...beta is where you should have been giving your discontent/suggestions/feedback.
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I'm moreso wondering if the devs will add new options to the rest of the slots and if so, how would they go about adding more options to Hybrid?
There's too many suggestions for Judgement, I'd like some more options to Interface with a few more thematic branches. I'm sure there's lots of pets people want for Lore and with new mechanics coming around, there's still new options one can insert for Destiny.
No clue about Hybrid though...they seem to have all possible themes covered in that it's just Melee, Control, Assault, Support. There's nothing really else you can do with it though.
You could possibly add more by being more explicit. Stealth, Healing, Shielding, Tanking, etc.
I actually think a Hybrid that turned you into a Healer, but only part-time, would be sort of neat, for example.
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I understand the CoH loyalists will grief you over being disappointed with Hybrid, but I can't help but agree with you on this one. I personally prefer the always on toggle with an endurance cost. Also, the fact that there are still several bugs with Hybrid kinda just sours the entire experience. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
What was promised was a toggle that always buffed your character. What we got was destiny 2.0 with some different buffs and arguably a lot weaker (being single target). Anyone feel the sameway?
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Overall though, the current Hybrid options seem so unimaginative.
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Because everyone plays this game non-stop and has enough free time to do just that.| What disappoints me are players who see an initial concept of a power...fail to follow it's changes on an open beta server....and then rant how it is not what it was originally. |
Sir, this is the second time you've said something absurd today. This will not do!
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That IS a cool idea! Something that would grant small team- or league-wide heals every time you damaged or 'killed' an opponent (for non-healers). It could add the new absorb mechanic on top of healing powers (for current healers) in the other tree. Or something that created a HoT pulse/pseudo-pet.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I actually think a Hybrid that turned you into a Healer, but only part-time, would be sort of neat, for example.
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A +recharge passive would pair appropriately with this ability, I think.
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There never was an option for *an* endurance cost.|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
I understand the CoH loyalists will grief you over being disappointed with Hybrid, but I can't help but agree with you on this one. I personally prefer the always on toggle with an endurance cost.
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The original design was for *mega*-endurance cost that drained you completely if you left it running unless you changed your entire build to compensate.
It was never designed at any point to be always on at it's current power level without significant compensatory adjustments by the player.
If you preferred an toggle that was not mega-draining, you would have had to settle for significantly less power. Now, if *that's* your preference, then fine. That's totally understandable as is your disappointment. But if you wanted the big power, then a toggle that wasn't mega-draining was never yours to lose in the first place.
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It's not absurd unless you insist on taking it out of context. The suggestion wasn't that everyone needs to 'play the game nonstop' (pure hyperbole on your part) or even that everyone needs to participate in Beta. |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Because everyone plays this game non-stop and has enough free time to do just that.
Sir, this is the second time you've said something absurd today. This will not do! |
The suggestion was that a player who reads an initial concept, fails to follow the ongoing evolution of that concept in beta (which he/she has the ability, if not necessarily the interest, to do), and then complains that the Devs 'broke a promise' does not have a leg to stand on. And I agree.
I personally rarely have the time (or frankly, the interest) to participate in beta. I recognize that I give up one of my main avenues of feedback to the Devs as a player by electing not to participate, and I'm fine with that. I don't, however, then retroactively accuse the Devs of deception when the thing I heard about a few months ago doesn't turn out precisely how I expected. Things go through a beta process for a reason.
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Originally Posted by Xyzor
That IS a cool idea! Something that would grant small team- or league-wide heals every time you damaged or 'killed' an opponent (for non-healers). It could add the new absorb mechanic on top of healing powers (for current healers) in the other tree. Or something that created a HoT pulse/pseudo-pet.
A +recharge passive would pair appropriately with this ability, I think. |
I'm departing from the original discussion, but I actually wish they would abandon "proc on hit" mechanics altogether. That is unless they want to delve into normalizing power cast times. Fire Blast as the premiere healing set would be a funny outcome, although it's really not too far from where we are now, with Plant Control's Roots power being one of the best AoE blasts in the game.
I would probably aim to just make it add power to your temp power tray. Left side PBAoE heal, right side Heal Other and Resurrect type powers. Or you could go left: AB clone, right: heal clones, so even a "healer" build could pick up the one side of it and benefit.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
There never was an option for *an* endurance cost.
The original design was for *mega*-endurance cost that drained you completely if you left it running unless you changed your entire build to compensate. It was never designed at any point to be always on at it's current power level without significant compensatory adjustments by the player. If you preferred an toggle that was not mega-draining, you would have had to settle for significantly less power. Now, if *that's* your preference, then fine. That's totally understandable as is your disappointment. But if you wanted the big power, then a toggle that wasn't mega-draining was never yours to lose in the first place. |
Pretty much what Zombie said above is true. The original intention was that the toggle have a cost high enough that it would force a decision on whether to run it. Trouble is, that just doesn't work with endurance, because that means its cost prohibitive on some characters and a freebie for others.
What follows is a kind of long suggestion that deviates from the topic at hand, read at your own risk:
What I have suggested to the developers in the past is that we need a new type of endurance, "incarnate endurance" if you will, that recovers independentally of your core powers. I'll call it "Moxie" as shorthand.
Just to give some background on how that might work, I'd consider having two values: Determinant Moxie and Expedient Moxie (DM and EM for these purposes). Both display on the same "energy bar." Essentially, some powers use DM (usually the most powerful ones) and some use EM (usually the more every-day ones).
EM is basically like Current Endurance is now. It's used for casting most incarnate abilities expediently. Your EM bar can fill up to 50% on its own. To go higher than that, you need to first move your DM.
DM is basically like Max Endurance is now. It doesn't recharge on its own. In this case, it's recovered by beating incarnate enemies, primarily, or else expending resources to refill it. It would be like if you played a bunch of trials, your Max Endurance stat could grow, and you use some very powerful abilities only at the cost of some of that Max Endurance.
The reason for this set up is three fold:
- Everyone enters into it on the same basic playing field, with no build having special advantages
- It creates a decision-making cost for players when deciding when and how to use powerful abilities
- It creates a reason to occasionally revisit incarnate trials and missions. If you don't want to, you can still use your EM powers pretty effectively. DM powers are intended primarily for the hard trials and you can use them a few times, but then they need to be recharged. This prevents simply having to completely block the use of any incarnate abilities in older parts of the game. You can use them, but they are really designed for the newer, more difficult areas, where they can be more easily maintained.
Anyway, if I were setting up Hybrid under such a system, it would basically work all the time, but have a steep EM cost. Since Destiny and Judgement would be draining from the same pool, you would have to manage your Moxie basically the way they originally intended you to manage your Endurance, except everyone enters under the same playing field. You could increase your DM to give you more breathing room, at least until you unleash Super Mega Overpowered Nuke later on, or whatever other truly overpowered, but balanced-for-cost ability awaits up the incarnate chain.
i feel exactly the same way, hybrid as it is now is just another destiny type power which is focused around offensive ability than defensive ability (exception being melee)
in its original form using .5 end/sec was NOT overkill on end drain, there are lots of powers which use up to double of that such as choking cloud, hot feet, superior invisibility and when enhanced are approximately the same drain as hybrid initially was
even if the end cost and power effect were reduced i would much rather have a permanent buff than some retarded toggle thats only up for half of the time with effects that arent even that superior as needing a limitation and whats worse i cant even set the hybrid to auto because its a fricking toggle
i was extremely unhappy when they changed it from a perma toggle and i made it known in the discussion threads about it, hybrid could have actually been good and fun but now its worthless, prolly one of the most meh/skippable incarnate powers we have now, and making it unlock ONLY in the magisterium trial is like a 2nd slap to the face
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Interesting idea. Didn't think of that.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm departing from the original discussion, but I actually wish they would abandon "proc on hit" mechanics altogether. That is unless they want to delve into normalizing power cast times. Fire Blast as the premiere healing set would be a funny outcome, although it's really not too far from where we are now, with Plant Control's Roots power being one of the best AoE blasts in the game.
I would probably aim to just make it add power to your temp power tray. Left side PBAoE heal, right side Heal Other and Resurrect type powers. Or you could go left: AB clone, right: heal clones, so even a "healer" build could pick up the one side of it and benefit. |
But It'd probably lean to something like a +Regen aura with a temp power heal and +absorb. Maybe add +recovery to that aura.
For a stealth hybrid, a +def self buff and 2 click temp powers: self stealth and assassination attack. Self stealth doesn't wear off when you attack but would last a short duration instead and wouldn't take long to come back. Assassination attack would only be usable during the self stealth. Using any attacks from that self stealth grants high chance for double hit while the assassination attack does moderately high ST dmg and debuffs the target (might be -regen or something).
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Ridiculous assumption! Exactly what I was referring to by "playing the game nonstop". Sorry, but not everyone checks in every month, much less week, much less day.| fails to follow the ongoing evolution of that concept in beta (which he/she has the ability |
Huff and puff all you want, regardless of their activity anyone who pays a sub has the same right as you do to have an opinion about the state of the game and to express it, given it's not deemed unsuitable by the powers in charge.
Wow, way to miss the point. Once again the only one who's talking about playing nonstop here is you. The only one claiming anyone doesn't have a right to an opinion, again, is you. If a player chooses not 'check in' to use your terms, that's fine. Claiming a 'promise was broken' because the player is still working off old info they didn't bother to update - that's what was under discussion. Though I suppose it's more fun to quote out of context and pretend persecution. Yay hyperbole!
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If I recall correctly it was .5 end/second. That's not exactly 'mega' in terms of endurance cost.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The original design was for *mega*-endurance cost that drained you completely if you left it running unless you changed your entire build to compensate.
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Also, if I recall the thread in beta, many, many people were perfectly fine with reduced power for constant use. It was the devs that decreed that they wanted a 'cooldown' type effect to the power. Something flashy and ultra-powerful with the caveat that you can't use it all the time. Well, on those terms, I think they succeeded (mostly). But it was THEIR terms, not the players. And anyone who says different is simply being an apologist for the devs.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
What was promised was a toggle that always buffed your character. What we got was destiny 2.0 with some different buffs and arguably a lot weaker (being single target). Anyone feel the sameway?