Hybrid I am disappoint
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-06-02 07:40 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Have you seen the majority of sets in the game and their corresponding popularity?|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
And it doesn't occur to you that the information they have may point to the fact that more people find interactivity more fun? Your first thought is that your position is blindingly, obviously correct and the devs are ignorant of reality?
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Most sets are set and forget, those that aren't are generally less played (Regen).
I don't honestly care one way or another which is most popular (I will admit I am selfish and want the game designed to please me), but I see very little evidence to show me I am wrong in this case.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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You have a good point there, which was what I tried to alude to with my * note that I edited into the last post.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I most certainly would not prefer if it if I always survived. A 50% death rate per fight is higher than I would prefer, I think I like about a 95% success/fail rate. One death every 20 spawns or so works good for me.
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Fight still need to be a challenge, so Hybrid shouldn't be an 'I Win' button, but having to wait on recharges is frustrating.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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No, and neither have you.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Have you seen the majority of sets in the game and their corresponding popularity?
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Most sets are set and forget, those that aren't are generally less played (Regen).
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Fight still need to be a challenge, so Hybrid shouldn't be an 'I Win' button, but having to wait on recharges is frustrating.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Yeah, but metrics don't work unless you care about them.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
To be fair it shouldn't take a load of angry beta testers to show the devs what people who play CoX find fun.
They should have metrics to know what sets are played, what powers are taken and how often they are used and should clearly know that always on powers are the preferred way of things. |
The developers knew how people feel about Hybrid. They simply were not willing/able to give them what they wanted.
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| Also if they are going to bother having us beta test stuff then they should listen to us as if we are a representative sample of the playerbase and not just say 'well you are only a small or elite group so we don't care'. |
To reiterate: The problem is not in our ability to give good feedback, nor is it in their ability to receive it. Nor is it in the data and metrics we provide, and it's probably not in how they interpret that.
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I finally got around to getting Hybrid and find it to be suitably meh. I'll probably take it off my bar and just let it sit in the background being a minor buff. They should rename it to Sometimes-Pseudo-Hybrid.
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I was disappointed in the numbers I was seeing on beta, but in my experience it does little good to battle over it. At some point I did pipe up to complain about the change from constant to inconstant, and it did about as much good as I'd expected.
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Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
Next time friggin participate!
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I have played this game on and off for 4 years, and most people who play regularly have a decent idea of that sets they see a lot of.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
No, and neither have you.
Blasters are the third most popular AT. In the high levels controllers get very popular. Neither of those are set and forget. As to which armored sets are the most popular, we have no idea. I guess. I normally don't wait, I use something else instead. |
There isn't a single set that I have never seen, but the popular ones I see a lot more of than the unpopular ones, and I can't imagine other peoples experiences being that vastly different to mine no matter how many times people tell me I can't prove x or y.
Blasters, controllers etc I don't count because they don't have survivability dedicated sets and controls etc which give survivability I put on par with attacks which obviously need a cooldown.
I should also add that I have never once seen a thread where someone asked for a defensive toggle to be made a click with downtime. But that does remind me of the changes to regen...
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Oh I saw the problem, I think it was Arbiter Hawk making a post about how he decided having to think about a power was 'fun'.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
To reiterate: The problem is not in our ability to give good feedback, nor is it in their ability to receive it. Nor is it in the data and metrics we provide, and it's probably not in how they interpret that.
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Having one persons idea of fun subjected onto us reminds me of way back when Jack was a lad.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Someone has to make that decision, and that someone is not you. If they make a decision you agree with, you praise them. If they make a decision you disagree with, you denigrate them as if they were foolish.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Oh I saw the problem, I think it was Arbiter Hawk making a post about how he decided having to think about a power was 'fun'.
Having one persons idea of fun subjected onto us reminds me of way back when Jack was a lad. |
I don't always agree with their decisions, but I hope I have never come across as looking down at them or belittling them.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
Fun is subjective and data provided by data mining may not actually mirror what players perceive as fun. Fun does not always equal the optimal build. There are plenty of powers in the game that are fun, but others perceive to be annoying.
Case in point: Knockback. Some players find this mechanic fun. Yet the majority of you find it annoying at best. EDIT: In general, I find that using datamining, key performance indicators and other metrics to quantify fun is a mistake. Popular? Sure. Popular doesn't necessarily equal fun. There might be another reason something is popular in our game. It might be visually appealing. It might be overpowered. It might have a broad appeal to character concepts. Or, it might be perceived by the masses as fun. Synapse |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I really wouldn't count on that number. The same data set that the devs through out that number in, had the total inf in the game at 56 billion. If I see a blaster on a trial these days it's notable.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Blasters are the third most popular AT. In the high levels controllers get very popular. Neither of those are set and forget. As to which armored sets are the most popular, we have no idea.
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Popularity will in general = fun. Just at a guess, more people went to see the Avengers than Howard's End because the Avengers was fun and Howard's End could be bottled and sold as an anesthetic.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Someone has to make that decision, and that someone is not you. If they make a decision you agree with, you praise them. If they make a decision you disagree with, you denigrate them as if they were foolish.
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Even if popular doesn't equal fun (Which is debatable because to use Synpase's example I think something looking good is fun) there is a reason it is popular and games like this should cater to the masses surely?
The beta testers should be considered as a whole to be representative of the game population, when almost all of us said 'we don't want it to be so restrictive' they should have listened instead of sticking to their idea of what we find fun, which as with many other things recently doesn't fit into everything we have found fun for the last 7 years.
I said on some thread somewhere that having power sets that behave in different ways is great (IE: regen being reactive and energy blast/storm having KB) because people can play the style they want, but incarnate powers don't let you pick the style so shouldn't force people down a less popular path.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Lol! 56 billion |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I really wouldn't count on that number. The same data set that the devs through out that number in, had the total inf in the game at 56 billion. If I see a blaster on a trial these days it's notable.
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Also unless the full set of stats are released I will never believe anything like this, we don't know what level they are, how often they are played or anything that indicates popularity other than lots of people want to make a blaster, which is true, even my first toon was a blaster until I realised they sucked, and I still have that toon.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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i think the biggest problem with hybrid is that it is weaker than most of the other incarnate powers and yet it is only useable 50% of the time with an almost negligible passive buff
if it was active all the time either as a perma toggle or a passive, i would put it on equal ground with interface, but as it is now i agree with most poeple that it is destiny 2.0 with half the uptime and half the benefit of destiny
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Notably... the only one of my 50s I've gotten to +3, and which I just recently acquired Hybrid on, is my Electric/Energy Blaster. With a Boost Range (auto'd) view of League action, it almost seems to *not* be a pile of chaotic madness sometimes.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
If I see a blaster on a trial these days it's notable.
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I often forget about that character's Build-Up, Aim, Power Build-Up, and Hasten buffs. They just sit there on the power bar gathering the dust of inconvenience most of the time.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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It was a permaable toggle when it was first introduced in VIP beta with a 0.5 end/sec. Asking for dropping endurance cost (or letting alpha effects it IIRC) so there won't be a big disperancy between builds that can manage it and those can't resulted to make it half-time up toggle. After that asking it returned to old model didn't work at all and most we could get was a passive boost.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i think the biggest problem with hybrid is that it is weaker than most of the other incarnate powers and yet it is only useable 50% of the time with an almost negligible passive buff
if it was active all the time either as a perma toggle or a passive, i would put it on equal ground with interface, but as it is now i agree with most poeple that it is destiny 2.0 with half the uptime and half the benefit of destiny |
I will be damned if I ever give my feedback in beta ever after that. I will only report bugs and that is all.
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Annoyingly they actually did listen to feeback, but only as long as it fitted into their 'vision' of what the power should be. If only they learn to let go of thier ego and accept that sometimes it is the vision itself that is wrong (But that would be admitting to making a mistake, which some people just can't do).
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Originally Posted by Kangstor
It was a permaable toggle when it was first introduced in VIP beta with a 0.5 end/sec. Asking for dropping endurance cost (or letting alpha effects it IIRC) so there won't be a big disperancy between builds that can manage it and those can't resulted to make it half-time up toggle. After that asking it returned to old model didn't work at all and most we could get was a passive boost.
I will be damned if I ever give my feedback in beta ever after that. I will only report bugs and that is all. |
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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It seems this is general situation with MMO's. It happened in SWG they refused to roll-back CU and NGE claiming that changes were written on old date and can't be taken back (WTH no computer designer would make that kind of mistake like not keeping previous versions) it also happened in many other MMO but SWG was the extreme example which refused to go into free model or return back to previous versions and finally closed down.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Annoyingly they actually did listen to feeback, but only as long as it fitted into their 'vision' of what the power should be. If only they learn to let go of thier ego and accept that sometimes it is the vision itself that is wrong (But that would be admitting to making a mistake, which some people just can't do).
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My guess is the investment done and the losing face by admiting mistakes in managements eyes were bigger problems than losing players and eventually going to be closed. Aftr all they can always make more games or move onto another genre of games or they can try to get new players with advertisement (which SWG tried and failed)
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Sometimes it is better to admit mistakes and then the customer base start to trust the developers rather than fear what is coming next.|
Originally Posted by Kangstor
My guess is the investment done and the losing face by admiting mistakes in managements eyes were bigger problems than losing players and eventually going to be closed. Aftr all they can always make more games or move onto another genre of games or they can try to get new players with advertisement (which SWG tried and failed)
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I see an awful lot of posts about people waiting on a beta to see if the next issue is worth coming back for and that shows that people don't expect too much anymore.
I would also compare incarnates with CU and NGE because the whole game has changed based on a perception that the change would improve the game, which in many ways it might have done (For both SWG and CoX) but the players liked what they used to have and the games are too long in the tooth to attract the new type of gamers to the new content.
I really fear that the devs are trying hard to extract every last penny out of the few people willing to spend it rather than rectifying the mistakes that seem to be driving people away in the first place.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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ROFLMAO!!!|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
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I am laughing for real, my son is looking at me funny.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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i remember that, and i gave my feedback saying i liked it that way and it was fine|
Originally Posted by Kangstor
It was a permaable toggle when it was first introduced in VIP beta with a 0.5 end/sec. Asking for dropping endurance cost (or letting alpha effects it IIRC) so there won't be a big disperancy between builds that can manage it and those can't resulted to make it half-time up toggle. After that asking it returned to old model didn't work at all and most we could get was a passive boost.
I will be damned if I ever give my feedback in beta ever after that. I will only report bugs and that is all. |
then they changed it and every post i made about hybrid since then has been nothing but my dislike for it, they took a perfectly good power and gutted it for no reason really
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When I first saw the end cost of the toggle I didn't like it, but would have much preferred it to what we have now. Though I agree it was unfair on the builds that are tight on endurance, but with a numbers tweak it could have let people drop both Tough and Weave, so wasn't as bad as it seemed.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i remember that, and i gave my feedback saying i liked it that way and it was fine
then they changed it and every post i made about hybrid since then has been nothing but my dislike for it, they took a perfectly good power and gutted it for no reason really |
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Yeah, I wouldn't have minded the end heavy Toggle version myself. For me, situational powers are crappy & useless too me. They've actually made something worse than Destiny, go figure.
Personally, I think that the rest of the Incarnate Powers are just going to go down hill from here. They started out nice, but now, I just think that all we're going to get are crappy little situational powers & micro buffs. Devs, Incarnates implies power, being God-like & being able to take on anything in this game, balance implies nerfing the living crap out of something until it equals a wimpy little punch thrown by an Elementary School Student.
Now... can you see why the 2 don't mix?
(These are just my opinions.)
My Lego Models http://www.flickr.com/photos/30369639@N07/ lemur lad: God you can't be that stupid... I'm on at the same time as you for once, and not 20 minutes into it you give me something worth petitioning?Lady-Dee: Hey my fat keeps me warm in the winter and shady in the summer.
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People at work (I work in a library!) look at me funny very time I see your sig because that always makes me laugh |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
ROFLMAO!!!
I am laughing for real, my son is looking at me funny. |
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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You dislike Destiny?
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Originally Posted by Robo_Knight
Yeah, I wouldn't have minded the end heavy Toggle version myself. For me, situational powers are crappy & useless too me. They've actually made something worse than Destiny, go figure.
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Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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They should have metrics to know what sets are played, what powers are taken and how often they are used and should clearly know that always on powers are the preferred way of things.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.