Hybrid I am disappoint
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-06-02 07:40 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Having used it, I actually wouldn't be fine with it being roughly half as weak, which is what I presume it would be changed to, ballpark, if it was up 100%. Naturally, I wish I could keep the benefit full time, but I can see why the devs might not want that. After all, given its current bugs, I've actually experienced it perma.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Are you experiencing it perma, truly, or does it just LOOK like you're experiencing it perma?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
After all, given its current bugs, I've actually experienced it perma.
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There's a very common bug where it keeps running but doesn't actually provide you any benefit until you manually toggle it off, and wait 2 more mins to start it up again.
But either way, I agree. The current statistics don't scream "T9 SURVIVAL SKILL RAAAAA" it seems completely reasonable to me that you'd be able to run it at all times at the current strength, which is why I was so disappointed to finally use it.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
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I know I had my Core Assault perma for awhile. My damage buff numbers were indeed reflecting the fact that it was on.
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Originally Posted by Virusman
Are you experiencing it perma, truly, or does it just LOOK like you're experiencing it perma?
There's a very common bug where it keeps running but doesn't actually provide you any benefit until you manually toggle it off, and wait 2 more mins to start it up again. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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I've experienced the second form, but generally when it's stayed on, it's stayed on fully. I can see my monitored stats vary in combat in the expected with Assault and Melee, and I can see expected control effects with Control.|
Originally Posted by Virusman
Are you experiencing it perma, truly, or does it just LOOK like you're experiencing it perma?
There's a very common bug where it keeps running but doesn't actually provide you any benefit until you manually toggle it off, and wait 2 more mins to start it up again. |
Trust me, on the characters I'm using them on and the way I'm playing them, I can tell the difference when it's not working and when it is, particularly for Melee and Control. (Assault I'm sure I could fail to notice without checking my monitor.)
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Originally Posted by Virusman
But either way, I agree. The current statistics don't scream "T9 SURVIVAL SKILL RAAAAA" it seems completely reasonable to me that you'd be able to run it at all times at the current strength, which is why I was so disappointed to finally use it.
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Here's an anecdotal example. I have a +3 Stone Melee / Fiery Aura Brute that I run in DA on +4/x8. I normally rely quite a bit on Barrier when piling into large numbers of Ancestral Sorcerers, because they have a fairly nasty defense debuff power. A couple of days ago, using T4 Melee Core, I was able to stay in the middle of a fresh spawn while debuffed by that power (Curse of Weariness) and Katana attacks, which together were dropping my L/S defense to around 12%. Twice during that my HP were pushed down to the 30-50% range in time for me to bounce back with Healing Flames before I cleared enough of the spawn that I was no longer in any real danger. I play DA repeatables a lot looking for Catalysts, and I've been in that situation before - without Melee Core I would have needed to pop Barrier to survive that level of debuff while standing in the middle of a fresh spawn.
It's not as dramatic a change as popping Barrier, but it was very, very noticeable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I posted this in a thread over in the Beta forums, but thought I'd put it up here where more people might see it. What do you all thought about this:
You know what might be cool? Adding an 'anti-crash' to the end of the Hybrid duration. What if, at the end of Melee's uptime (or when you de-toggle it), it did an AoE stun/daze that gave you time to get out of melee range? Or if, at the end of Assault's uptime, it did an AoE -Resist? Something that is relevant to each power's effects, as a big boost at the end. If you accidentally double-click, at least you get the termination effect. Sometimes, maybe you would purposefully double-click it or end it early to get that effect.
There are lots of options: Big heal for yourself or others at the end of Support, or +To Hit, Fear/Stun/Immob/Hold at the end of control, the aforementioned -Res or -Def (or both) at the end of assault, a control effect or heal or big Def/Res boost at the end of Melee. Even if they only lasted 10-15 seconds or so, I think it would go a long way towards putting Hybrid on par with the other Incarnate abilities.
This would also give a clear and obvious signal that the Hybrid effect is over, so you can react accordingly, without staring at your buffs waiting for it to expire (or worse, not noticing and faceplanting shortly thereafter).
The mechanics to implement this should already exist, since it is basically the same as a 'crash' effect, it's just a buff instead.
(I know changes like this aren't likely to be implemented, but I think it is a very cool idea)
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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Well, you are right, I was confused by what you had said, now that I go back and read it fully.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Actually, you're disagreeing with me. At its current levels, using T4 at least, I think I do see why we can't use it full time.
... It's not as dramatic a change as popping Barrier, but it was very, very noticeable. |
However, I would GLADLY take some of these powers, at 1/2 or even 1/3 of their strength, if it meant you could keep them up full-time.
I don't think that, at their current strength, they're on par with what was the intent.
To me, this power seems as though it's the first power we've been given that's taken our current incarnate strength into account, whereas powersets are often built towards using SOs, I feel we've already risen past the point of this power being useful. And it's a power in a "difficult" trial, which you must have the extra slots unlocked to participate in.
Generally, some of them are stronger than others in their current incarnation, more noticeable than the rest. This is true for a lot of the slots, though. While the damage effects from the proc are very nice, the global damage buff is not. Melee, similarly, is "alright" it will add quite a bit to a character that is already survivable, but it's not as good an addition as many options already available, and it's presented in a package that reminds me very much of a T9, albeit without the crash.
AH mentioned something along the lines of, it's FUN to have active powers. He has bound Hasten to Tab, and Dull Pain to the W key, in addition to their normal functions, as these are powers that are perma for him. It takes skill to do that and is fun.
Well, try applying a creative, skillful solution like that to Hybrid.
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Originally Posted by Xyzor
You know what might be cool? Adding an 'anti-crash' to the end of the Hybrid duration. What if, at the end of Melee's uptime (or when you de-toggle it), it did an AoE stun/daze that gave you time to get out of melee range? Or if, at the end of Assault's uptime, it did an AoE -Resist? Something that is relevant to each power's effects, as a big boost at the end. If you accidentally double-click, at least you get the termination effect. Sometimes, maybe you would purposefully double-click it or end it early to get that effect.
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I support it wholeheartedly and it would solve all my issues with the power.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
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Eh, this is a load of crap, honestly. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
They said it would be a toggle... a toggle that drains End so hard, that only specialized End-building builds could run it continuously -- everyone else had to toggle it on as needed for as long as they could handle.
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If an Ill/Rad Controller could find a way to run Superior Invisibility and Choking Cloud at the same time pre-Incarnate powers, people would have figured this out too.
At 100% end reduction enhancement, both of those powers use .52 end per second, which is .02 more than Hybrid would have been.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Im not impressed with Hybrid at all. I think I will only be getting it for one more toon. Airhammer my namesake and thats it..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I don't understand what your point is.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If an Ill/Rad Controller could find a way to run Superior Invisibility and Choking Cloud at the same time pre-Incarnate powers, people would have figured this out too.
At 100% end reduction enhancement, both of those powers use .52 end per second, which is .02 more than Hybrid would have been. |
I've been playing Rad forever and have had no trouble running Enervating Field, which is more expensive than Group Invisibility, along with RI and, etc. Granted they were only active for that long for AV fights.
Heck, running those *four* Toggles still gives you .7/s Recovery. I didn't even fully slot them.
You're going a little overboard if you're going to say "oh yeah well you need to also be able to use all of your other powers, and have perma hasten" because that's not the point.
With IOs, pre-incarnate, you could *easily* have done it by building for max endurance and recovery. Heck, you could have still perma'd AM, increasing your recovery even further.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
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As it has been stated several times in the various Hybrid-themed posts, it was the fact that players COULD manage the end cost on a permanent basis that motivated the devs to change the way the slot worked. They did not want Hybrid to be an always-on power.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If an Ill/Rad Controller could find a way to run Superior Invisibility and Choking Cloud at the same time pre-Incarnate powers, people would have figured this out too.
At 100% end reduction enhancement, both of those powers use .52 end per second, which is .02 more than Hybrid would have been. |
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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Than they shouldn't make it a toggle in the first place but I know I am talking to a wall. When we were tried to put some sense into devs, most we could achieve is passive boost which is only reason I slotted a T4 in my main and won't bother with any other toon with hybrid.
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Originally Posted by Xyzor
As it has been stated several times in the various Hybrid-themed posts, it was the fact that players COULD manage the end cost on a permanent basis that motivated the devs to change the way the slot worked. They did not want Hybrid to be an always-on power.
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Mechanically, there are only two options for what they gave us in Hybrid - toggle or passive. That's it. We can't have the effects that Hybrid offers, like scaling mitigation on Melee or the AoE buffs from Support, without a pulsing, consistently refreshed power. The only powers that fit those bills are passives and toggles.|
Originally Posted by Kangstor
Than they shouldn't make it a toggle in the first place but I know I am talking to a wall.
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A passive version of Hybrid would have been way weaker, and clearly doesn't meet their "conditional use" requirement, so a toggle was the only other option.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The main problem I have is the detoggle... Is it possible to get the technology to just have 2 minutes uptime and 2 minutes 'suppressed'? Would prevent the clicky clicky and lack of realizing 'oh I haven't had it on for 6 minutes while it's up..."
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I'm disappointed in the plethora of bugs that came with Hybrid.
Aside from that, I like my Hybrids.
The Assault Radial on my fortunata feels like a nice Build Up like power without the burning need to stuff as many attacks as possible into a meager 10s window of "standard" Build Ups.
The Melee Core I have on my shield scrapper is nicely complemented with OwtS to provide resistances for an extended time.
I still have to decide which Hybrids to get for my two brutes, my domi and my corr, but so far, I like my Hybrids 
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indeed good sir. indeed.
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Originally Posted by Justaris
...I personally rarely have the time (or frankly, the interest) to participate in beta. I recognize that I give up one of my main avenues of feedback to the Devs as a player by electing not to participate, and I'm fine with that. I don't, however, then retroactively accuse the Devs of deception when the thing I heard about a few months ago doesn't turn out precisely how I expected. Things go through a beta process for a reason...
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perma jump is ---> /up 1
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Given that it has downtime, I wouldn't actually like that so much. I tend to time when I restart it based on really expecting to need the extra protection, rather than just whenever it happens to be back.|
Originally Posted by Quinz
The main problem I have is the detoggle... Is it possible to get the technology to just have 2 minutes uptime and 2 minutes 'suppressed'? Would prevent the clicky clicky and lack of realizing 'oh I haven't had it on for 6 minutes while it's up..."
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Then again, I'm someone who never puts Hasten on auto.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
ohhh no. Just NO.
All of you that missed beta and are disappointed with hybrid NOW...
NO.
Stop your complaining!
You forfeit all rights to complain because you didn't take part in beta, you didn't take fire for posting feedback and you didn't step up when it was important.
Our numbers probably would have gotten something decent in place but only if you guys and gals would have shown the hell up and taken the fire for voicing your concerns.
There was only a handful of us expressing our disdain on beta and we knew it would get sour on live but there just wasn't enough to outweigh the trolling parroting cheerleaders.
This is what we have now.
Next time friggin participate!
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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True enough, but the fact that Hybrid is now Live does not completely preclude it from getting fixed. If anything, a wider audience panning it only helps the cause.|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
ohhh no. Just NO.
All of you that missed beta and are disappointed with hybrid NOW... NO. Stop your complaining! You forfeit all rights to complain because you didn't take part in beta, you didn't take fire for posting feedback and you didn't step up when it was important. Our numbers probably would have gotten something decent in place but only if you guys and gals would have shown the hell up and taken the fire for voicing your concerns. There was only a handful of us expressing our disdain on beta and we knew it would get sour on live but there just wasn't enough to outweigh the trolling parroting cheerleaders. This is what we have now. Next time friggin participate! |
I would also encourage breaking out the angry PMs to everyone, even marketing.
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I didn't follow the beta. I didn't even know what Hybrid was supposed to be in the first place. The first I knew about the powers was when they went live.
And I think they're pretty crap.
They're weaker Destinies. Yeah, they're stronger than any pre-incarnate stuff...But we're over halfway through the Incarnate slots and thus far not much has proven to be impressive. I'm still waiting for the amazing power the devs were talking about, so far we've gotten things that could have been awesome if not for poor balancing. Really, who's going to pick Cryonic or Vorpal over "I nuke the world without aiming" Ion? Has anyone ever used Incandescence? And now this letdown.
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The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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All of these were told in beta forums over and over again both in feedback thread and in thread that AH opened up to provide what hybrid will be. Despite all of the negative opinion about it all we could force to happen was adding a passive boost and at that point people gave up (including myself) and as a result hybrid got into live with its half-back.side.you.know.where state.
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
I didn't follow the beta. I didn't even know what Hybrid was supposed to be in the first place. The first I knew about the powers was when they went live.
And I think they're pretty crap. They're weaker Destinies. Yeah, they're stronger than any pre-incarnate stuff...But we're over halfway through the Incarnate slots and thus far not much has proven to be impressive. I'm still waiting for the amazing power the devs were talking about, so far we've gotten things that could have been awesome if not for poor balancing. Really, who's going to pick Cryonic or Vorpal over "I nuke the world without aiming" Ion? Has anyone ever used Incandescence? And now this letdown. |
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Not to get too off the mark here, but most of these examples aren't the best to prove the point you're trying to make. Plenty of people take Vorpal, especially the radial path that gives +Defense - it's different and it's useful. I have it on several characters. Incandescence is excellent both for its -Heal Resistance (makes heals work better on targets) and its positioning ability. While this can be abused by inconsiderate players, the easiest TPN and Keyes runs I've done were with several players intelligently using that Destiny. |
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
They're weaker Destinies. Yeah, they're stronger than any pre-incarnate stuff...But we're over halfway through the Incarnate slots and thus far not much has proven to be impressive. I'm still waiting for the amazing power the devs were talking about, so far we've gotten things that could have been awesome if not for poor balancing. Really, who's going to pick Cryonic or Vorpal over "I nuke the world without aiming" Ion? Has anyone ever used Incandescence? And now this letdown.
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Granted, given that Ion was bugged on release to do way more damage than the others a lot of people went that way and never made another afterwards (after the fix it's still a very good Judgement, so it's understandable), but I think that accounts for the preponderance of Ion moreso than any inherent superiority. Pyronic, Vorpal and Void are all very good options. The only one I don't often see is Cryonic, which seems to be taken largely for concept reasons or because of how good the animation looks.
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Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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To be fair it shouldn't take a load of angry beta testers to show the devs what people who play CoX find fun.|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
ohhh no. Just NO.
All of you that missed beta and are disappointed with hybrid NOW... NO. Stop your complaining! You forfeit all rights to complain because you didn't take part in beta, you didn't take fire for posting feedback and you didn't step up when it was important. Our numbers probably would have gotten something decent in place but only if you guys and gals would have shown the hell up and taken the fire for voicing your concerns. There was only a handful of us expressing our disdain on beta and we knew it would get sour on live but there just wasn't enough to outweigh the trolling parroting cheerleaders. This is what we have now. Next time friggin participate! |
They should have metrics to know what sets are played, what powers are taken and how often they are used and should clearly know that always on powers are the preferred way of things.
Also if they are going to bother having us beta test stuff then they should listen to us as if we are a representative sample of the playerbase and not just say 'well you are only a small or elite group so we don't care'.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Wouldn't you prefer to always survive that fight rather than knowing you can win it 50% of the time?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Here's an anecdotal example. I have a +3 Stone Melee / Fiery Aura Brute that I run in DA on +4/x8. I normally rely quite a bit on Barrier when piling into large numbers of Ancestral Sorcerers, because they have a fairly nasty defense debuff power. A couple of days ago, using T4 Melee Core, I was able to stay in the middle of a fresh spawn while debuffed by that power (Curse of Weariness) and Katana attacks, which together were dropping my L/S defense to around 12%. Twice during that my HP were pushed down to the 30-50% range in time for me to bounce back with Healing Flames before I cleared enough of the spawn that I was no longer in any real danger. I play DA repeatables a lot looking for Catalysts, and I've been in that situation before - without Melee Core I would have needed to pop Barrier to survive that level of debuff while standing in the middle of a fresh spawn.
It's not as dramatic a change as popping Barrier, but it was very, very noticeable. |
It is soul crushing knowing I have to wait on a power to recharge before I can win a fight. For example my currently levelling toon DB/Nrg scrapper is 45 and soloes on +0/x8 but against Arachnos if I see 2 Tarantula Mistresses in one group I know that having Water Spout available means I win*, and not having it means I die in the alpha. Having to wait even 10s for it to cooldown between spawns kills my fun.
*Assuming I use my brains and take the Tarantula Mistresses out first, so it isn't an easy fight at all.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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...
In the end I feel like Hybrid hasn't really increased the power level of any of my characters, merely smoothed out some not really deep potholes in the road and is thus entirely missable, and incarnate powers should not be missable.
I'd be fine if there were a weaker, always-on variant of Hybrid.
As it is, it's not strong enough to rely on in a pinch, and it's just annoying to have to click.. wait 4 mins.. click again... it takes the level of "too many clicks" some characters had BEFORE Incarnate content, and finds a way to make it even more annoying.
Edit: It looks fine on paper, I was super excited to use it.. but it just leaves me disappointed. Annoying really is the best word I can use to describe it in practice. It doesn't make me any weaker, granted, but it doesn't seem like a solid addition to my character's arsenal, which is kind of sad.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends