Hybrid I am disappoint
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-06-02 07:40 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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It was intended from the beginning to be an "actively choose when to use" power, not a "toggle on and leave on forever" power, and was explicitly explained as such, as evidenced by the feedback questions Freitag used to start the feedback thread. The initial design, with the endurance cost, failed to accomplish that intention, as multiple players pointed out, and so it was changed.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Also, if I recall the thread in beta, many, many people were perfectly fine with reduced power for constant use. It was the devs that decreed that they wanted a 'cooldown' type effect to the power. Something flashy and ultra-powerful with the caveat that you can't use it all the time. Well, on those terms, I think they succeeded (mostly). But it was THEIR terms, not the players. And anyone who says different is simply being an apologist for the devs.
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Hybrid had a specific design goal; players saw a new Incarnate slot and projected all their hopes and wishes onto it, regardless of whether they met the design goal or were at all balanced. A LOT of player feedback and input went into the Hybrid slot; all four trees are dramatically different than when they first went up on beta.
Everything in the game is done on dev terms. That's not apologism, that is a basic fact.
I am not a fan of the toggle state, but I disagree vehemently that the end cost was viable or acceptable. I do not have a character who could have soaked that end cost proposed (0.5 EPS) - I would have needed to completely rebuild them around the Hybrid I intended to use, which I would consider basically unacceptable.
My characters don't have "extra" recovery laying around. They're built to use what they have. And they have a lot - 3.5-4.5 EPS recovery is typical for my 50s, and that doesn't include Performance Shifters, so it's actually a bit better than that. Yet despite that, I could not affort 0.5 unenhanceable recovery without using Ageless as my Destiny full time. What's that mean for folks with more mundane recovery?
But that's not the point, really. As mentioned above, the point of the high end cost was that the devs didn't want us to run Hybrid full-time. That anyone would "fix" their build (or Destiny choice) to run it full time directly violated that design intent. They didn't change it because some people disagreed with the end cost -they changed it because it left some characters able to run Hybrid all the time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Right, exactly.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
But that's not the point, really. As mentioned above, the point of the high end cost was that the devs didn't want us to run Hybrid full-time. That anyone would "fix" their build (or Destiny choice) to run it full time directly violated that design intent. They didn't change it because some people disagreed with the end cost -they changed it because it left some characters able to run Hybrid all the time.
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The "I would rather deal with the end cost and run it all the time" approach is WHY it was changed. It was changed to prevent people from doing that, because it's intended to not be run all the time. And it would also disproportionately favor sets/builds with strong endurance tools, while being disproportionately useless for sets/builds that already struggle with endurance. An always-on toggle with a cost was opposite the design goal, and in a way that drastically favored some builds over others. An always-on toggle with a lower cost but lesser effects was never even on the table,
Well I think the solution should have been to have core be the always on toggle and radial be the click power (as a example) of course the values would need to be twicked . I think some of the ones, especially support and maybe the control one is completely terrible unless it was an always on toggle.
You're getting what? 8% def, dmg and hit from t4 on 2 min cd?? A t4 destiny already provides a full time 5% def and res to twice as many people as well as a huge frontload res and def buff.
I really think they should have thought a bit more about hybrid before pushing it out the door.
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I think the solution should have been unlimited free ponies for everyone. However, the devs have a concept of what they want Hybrid to do, and that concept has no room for unlimited free ponies, so my opinion on the matter is rather irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
Well I think the solution should have been to have core be the always on toggle and radial be the click power (as a example) of course the values would need to be twicked .
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Unfortunately, unlimited ponies is not within the scope of what they were trying to do. Which is a power that fills a hole in your build.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
I think the solution should have been unlimited free ponies for everyone. However, the devs have a concept of what they want Hybrid to do, and that concept has no room for unlimited free ponies, so my opinion on the matter is rather irrelevant.
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Right... that was my point.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Unfortunately, unlimited ponies is not within the scope of what they were trying to do. Which is a power that fills a hole in your build.
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An always-on toggle was not within the scope of what they were trying to do, which was to make you actively choose when to use the power, rather than just leave it on all the time, as they said from the very start of the beta.
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Exactly. And it's not like the devs never change anything that leaves beta and goes to live, right?|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Ridiculous assumption! Exactly what I was referring to by "playing the game nonstop". Sorry, but not everyone checks in every month, much less week, much less day.
Huff and puff all you want, regardless of their activity anyone who pays a sub has the same right as you do to have an opinion about the state of the game and to express it, given it's not deemed unsuitable by the powers in charge. |
Add me to the list of those disappointed by this incarnate power.
First of all, it would seem to me by the name, 'hybrid', that the goal was to give at's access to the other at's goodies. Instead, from what i've seen, most at's are just taking the powers that add to the types of powers their at already focuses on, like most damage at's are simply going into assault.
Secondly, if it's going to be a duration power, don't be lazy and leave it as a self detoggling toggle just because it started off as a toggle. I'm not sure why it was designed to be a toggle in the first place if the devs supposedly didn't want it to be used all the time and didn't want builds built for endurance to have an advantage with it. I guess it's just further evidence of poor design/strategy.
And finally, the power feels far weaker than the previous powers, and far less useful.
Up to now I've been very happy with the incarnate powers, but so far, this one looks like a dud. Hopefully it's just a hiccup and the remaining powers are more like the previous ones.
Hopeling is 100% right here, and has communicated both the devs goals and the progression of what happened with Hybrid in Beta very efficiently.
Many PLAYERS asked for a perma-toggle with decreased stats, but it was explicitly stated by the Devs that Hybrid was never going to be a perma- power, period. They actually made a fairly significant concession to the playerbase by adding the passive buffs, however smallish they may be, to each ability.
Personally, after using Hybrid for a few days, it is fine. I hope they fix the not-de-toggling but dropping effects bug soon, but otherwise, it isn't really a problem clicking it every 2 minutes or so. It's not a power you can create a build around, like Alpha, but it was never intended to be. It falls into the 'Oh ****' button/Buildup categories, depending on what you choose, and there are plenty of powers in every powerset that use a similar mechanic (think all of the Defensive T9s).
As 1 power in a 10-power set (Incarnate Power Set), it really isn't bad. It is just the first to roll out in a while, so people had unreasonable expectations.
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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Given the power is called "Hybrid", I don't think people's expectations where unreasonable.|
Originally Posted by Xyzor
people had unreasonable expectations.
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However apologetic you want to get for the developers, this power DOES NOT do what it says on the tin.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I kind of dig being able to fear, immob, and stun enemies on my Kat/Invuln, something that is definitely Hybrid scrapper/controller. My Fire/Fire/Force blaster with Support who also already had Man, Assault, and Tactics is hyrbid blaster/defender.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
However apologetic you want to get for the developers, this power DOES NOT do what it says on the tin.
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My Fire/Fire/Flame blaster took assault, I chose to specialize more rather than branch out.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I'm calling shenanigans on that one. You know perfectly well that that amount of End usage can't be taken on by the vast majority of builds without substantial adjustment.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
If I recall correctly it was .5 end/second. That's not exactly 'mega' in terms of endurance cost.
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| Also, if I recall the thread in beta, many, many people were perfectly fine with reduced power for constant use. It was the devs that decreed that they wanted a 'cooldown' type effect to the power. |
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How does the name of a power create any sort of expectation, reasonable or otherwise? By your logic, it DOES provide the ability of any char to gain some benefits more usually associated with other ATs. By name alone, that is all it suggests. Nowhere in the definition of 'Hybrid' is any type of 'always on' functionality.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Given the power is called "Hybrid", I don't think people's expectations where unreasonable.
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People tend to expect the 'newest' thing to also be the best. Because Hybrid is the first new iSlot to open in a little while, the expectations of its impact on the game were too high. This has nothing to do with expectations based on power names/dev comments/etc, just about how much it would change the game experience. Face it, this is just 1 power in a 10 power set. It is no more or less important that Destiny, Judgement, Lore, Interface or Alpha. Every set has powers that are more or less attractive to different playstyles. This is no different.
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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Please speak for yourself. The majority of my incarnate characters would have been able to absorb that cost. I only had two characters that would not. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I'm calling shenanigans on that one. You know perfectly well that that amount of End usage can't be taken on by the vast majority of builds without substantial adjustment.
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| Right. As I said before, the devs listened to feedback and made a decision. That doesn't mean they took a poll and majority won. And that's a separate issue from "not working as promised." No one was promised always-on toggle or auto power at that level of power, nor an always-on toggle or auto power at a lower level of power. It was thrown out as an option. It was discussed. And a decision made. It's fine not to like it. It's not true to say were were duped or the devs didn't listen. |
With respect to Hybrid, this was purely a design choice. The devs wanted non-permanent high power. Some players would have been OK with moderate to low power with always on application. For my part, I'm mostly OK with the passive boost provided by Hybrid because it means I can just go with Assault and take my 10% damage. If I remember to hit the power great, if not, at least I have that bit of boost.
I have been wildly ecstatic about Issues 19-22. I was due to think an Issue was a failure and in my opinion, Issue 23 is the most disappointing issue in recent memory. It's OK if others disagree, this is just my opinion.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
If I recall correctly it was .5 end/second. That's not exactly 'mega' in terms of endurance cost.
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You're right in a sense. Under the current structure of the game, .5 end/second is managable for some builds. But it was actually the fact that it was managable that got it in trouble, because the function of the endurance cost was meant to limit how often the power could be used.
The real issue, overall, was that a lot of builds could manage 0.5 end/sec--if they went Cardiac Alpha and/or Ageless Destiny. A lot people commented (and I more or less agree with that feedback) that if Hybrid's only obstacle was endurance, selecting incarnate abilities would be a lot less interesting because most characters would be forced down the exact same route just to maintain the powers.
(This is what led me to suggest to the developers in the original thread that we need a seperate "incarnate endurance" source, so we all enter on the same ground and cost management can be performed more easily on their end.)
Having a 2 min recharge is a bit much. At least cut the recharge down to 1 min to make the power a bit more useful.
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"Listening" to feedback does not mean that you always do what was suggested by that feedback. This gets cast in this light frequently, but it's an unfair characterization. "You didn't do what I suggested" isn't the same thing as "you didn't listen to my suggestion."
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Well, it is fair to say that the devs didn't listen to some people's feedback. That's a fact. Whether it was a good idea to listen to their feedback is another matter entirely.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No, they didn't listen. Hawk stated point blank that whatever folks wanted, they were going with a cooldown effect to the power. Listening doesn't mean simply taking in the information.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
"Listening" to feedback does not mean that you always do what was suggested by that feedback. This gets cast in this light frequently, but it's an unfair characterization. "You didn't do what I suggested" isn't the same thing as "you didn't listen to my suggestion."
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Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
intransitive verb
1 : to pay attention to sound <listen to music> 2 : to hear something with thoughtful attention : give consideration <listen to a plea> 3 : to be alert to catch an expected sound <listen for his step> |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Actually it is NOT fair to say they did not listen, nor is it a fact. The FACT is that the devs LISTENED (or, more accurately, READ) all of the user feedback. They just didn't act on every suggestion made, nor should they have (as you correctly pointed out). The passive buffs, actually, seemed to be a direct response to user feedback and suggestions in the Beta thread. So the devs took all of the player feedback and suggestions to heart, and made the changes they felt best served their intended design of the power and its affect on game balance.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Well, it is fair to say that the devs didn't listen to some people's feedback. That's a fact. Whether it was a good idea to listen to their feedback is another matter entirely.
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Now, I am sure this is just a semantic argument, and you meant that the devs did not make all of the changes that players asked for, when you say that they did not listen to feedback. Still, it is completely unfair to say that the devs didn't listen, when a major component of the power can from user suggestions.
EDIT: A few more comments were posted while I wrote my response, so this is a bit dated now, and in fact, you commented saying that is was NOT a semantic argument, that you actually meant the devs didn't listen. Look, they had a design concept in mind. It is not their job to just bend over and give the player base whatever we ask for. We are greedy and self-serving entities. ****, I want all of my attacks to simultaneously heal me. Guess what? Not gonna happen, nor should it. The fact that devs won't seriously consider it if I suggest that change doesn't mean they are doing a us a disservice. Just because YOU wanted Hybrid a certain way, doesn't mean the devs have to agree or make a single change to move it in the direction you want.
I would hope that part of the design of Hybrid as a sometimes power has to do with some more passive/perma Incarnate abilities later on, though I am not sure if that is the case.
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
-Hybrid Support Core T4 states 12% boosts but only gives 6%.
*A 6% boost is about the same as the Leadership pools, so not a real 'high' buff as people state it is/should be.
-Hybrid Assault Radial T4 only gives a quarter of the damage output from that power instead of the 'double hit'.
*Double hit in my opinion means it should have a chance to do twice as mucg damage, or hit twice giving the same amount of damage. 78dam vs a 340 dealing damage isn't double.
-Hybrid Melee Core's T4 regen doesn't stack as stated with more enemies around.
*The regen stayed the same and actually even lowered a few times while testing this out.
-Hybrid has an exploit which lets me run it as a toggle, with full buffs, for no end cost.... at will.
*Found this out on Friday afternoon running a MsLTF, i already reported it.
And yes, i tested all these on Live on the same toon, my Crab Spider named Nephila.
Place me on the list of people disappointed in this new Incarnate ability.
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Lol Shut your mouth, EG. I can tell you now, most of my incarnates can't but then most don't actually pick up powers for plugging holes. My Storm corruptor still drops off endurance even with ageless and my Claws/EA brute *needs* Energy Drain otherwise he's sucking wind...he's even sucking wind *with* ED and has to slow down occasionally since its recharge might not be up exactly when he needs it.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Please speak for yourself. The majority of my incarnate characters would have been able to absorb that cost. I only had two characters that would not.
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But as for Hybrid being disappointing or not, I'm just going to point out that they can still be changed or added to. As mentioned before, people still have ideas for various hybrids. I'm actually liking the stealth idea as one could figure out a means to make a Blaster/Sniper hybrid out of that if you so wish or a Melee/Paladin hybrid with a healing/support option.
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More shenanigans. Just because they didn't give you what you wanted doesn't mean they didn't consider it. You don't know for a fact what they did and didn't consider it. So called 'point blank' refusals doesn't mean that in turning down your request, they didn't give it due consideration. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Here, the devs heard what we said, but they also made clear that they weren't even considering what SOME (not all) of us wanted.
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Sorry, you're only going to get the usual suspects to jump on this rabble rousing bandwagon of "the devs are mean because they didn't do it my way" pout party. Those of us who've followed along know better. We've seen the devs in question come back to players several times and adapt along the way. We know they gave due consideration.
In other words: They listened.
There is plenty of stuff the Devs have said 'no' to me about. But I know they listened.
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Whatever. Believe what you want, as will I. It doesn't matter a bit. They did what they did, and the completely foreseeable consequences of that are coming to pass.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
More shenanigans. Just because they didn't give you what you wanted doesn't mean they didn't consider it. You don't know for a fact what they did and didn't consider it. So called 'point blank' refusals doesn't mean that in turning down your request, they didn't give it due consideration.
Sorry, you're only going to get the usual suspects to jump on this rabble rousing bandwagon of "the devs are mean because they didn't do it my way" pout party. Those of us who've followed along know better. We've seen the devs in question come back to players several times and adapt along the way. We know they gave due consideration. In other words: They listened. There is plenty of stuff the Devs have said 'no' to me about. But I know they listened. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Of course not, and nor should they. But look, you all are assuming a negativity that isn't there. When I say the devs didn't listen, I'm just stating that because it's what happened. I make no judgment on that. They had a concept and decided to go with it. It's that simple. I am not equating listening with "doing whatever we wanted". But Hawk stated that they had no intention of changing their original design goal. As YOU HAVE ALL STATED, there was never an option for an always on power. We agree on that. But if there was NEVER an option for an always on power, then the devs weren't giving due consideration to some folks' concerns. Maybe that was the right decision, maybe not. Time will tell.|
Originally Posted by Xyzor
EDIT: A few more comments were posted while I wrote my response, so this is a bit dated now, and in fact, you commented saying that is was NOT a semantic argument, that you actually meant the devs didn't listen. Look, they had a design concept in mind. It is not their job to just bend over and give the player base whatever we ask for. We are greedy and self-serving entities. ****, I want all of my attacks to simultaneously heal me. Guess what? Not gonna happen, nor should it. The fact that devs won't seriously consider it if I suggest that change doesn't mean they are doing a us a disservice. Just because YOU wanted Hybrid a certain way, doesn't mean the devs have to agree or make a single change to move it in the direction you want.
I would hope that part of the design of Hybrid as a sometimes power has to do with some more passive/perma Incarnate abilities later on, though I am not sure if that is the case. |
There have been contra-examples where the devs have tried something we suggested, found it wanting or not meeting their goals and went another direction. That's listening. That's not what happened here.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
And it still doesn't answer the issue that some players would essentially be allowed to run it "free" while others quite simply couldn't ever run it without sapping themselves.
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