To those who complained Tyrant was too easy...
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-05-31 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I've never been clear on the reason why anyone would want on their side the people that are most easily swayed in this manner.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Why would I stop, in general hyperbole and exagerated examples are much more effective at swaying people than rational arguments.
Rational arguments might work better on the devs, but on forum readers who are on the edge about an issue, trial disaster horror stories might make them start thinking, you know this trial isnt really that good. |
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Sometimes volume can influence things reason cant.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I've never been clear on the reason why anyone would want on their side the people that are most easily swayed in this manner.
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My argument is reasonable, that the trial isnt fun and encourages the worst behavior in players.
But the devs wont listen to someting like this, so volume is going to be needed on this one. Lots of volume.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Have run seven of these trials on my main, who is on Virtue, with only one completion. The vast majority of comments I am seeing, both in public and in league chat, are very disappointed with the trial. |
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Hahaha on virtue, two leagues are trying to put together a farm and a full trial at the same time, they are fighting like crazy, getting the wrong people, people are leaving on the real trial and trying to kill the bosses on the farm.
This couldnt be any funnier if it tried..... I dont even know how the devs came up with this disasterous trial, but its an almost endless source of amusement. |
Apologists can say what they want: but with NO OTHER TRIAL have we seen trial "farms" within a few days of release. With no other trial! In fact I am not sure I have EVER seen someone wanting to "farm," say, Underground.
I am not sure the brilliant idea [yes, that was heavy sarcasm you heard] of placing costume components in the trial competion pool is going to achieve the desired result. In fact I can tell you that over here, such a cheap and craptacular tactic would be ignored. Yes really.
I have Hybrid unlocked on my main. It will be a long time - if ever - before I am interested in pursuing the slot on any of my many other level 50s. I am sure some view that as a triumph of trial design - go for it. My 50s have plenty of other things to do, thankfully.
Trials run on Union - About 15.
Trials completed - About 4.
Reasons for failure - Certain players unable to follow orders or simply doing what they pleased.
On Union i am very comfortable in saying we have some of the best iTrial leaders around. People who the entire server know as being some of the best we've ever seen, however this trial itself relies far too much on the entire league doing their part.
While in all the other trials you can quite easily get away with having a few free loaders within your league, this trial i found that you cannot. You simply need the dps/debuffs from everybody to get the victory.
IF everybody is indeed pulling their weight then the trial turns out to be quite easy, but having no/VERY little room for the free loaders is very frustrating.
Regarding the 5 second warning for his lightning, that is FAR too short and is one of the sole reasons so many people arent enjoying the trial as much as they could be. While 5 seconds should in theory be enough to move away, if you have just activated a power within even just minimal animation then you are going to get caught in it. The timer should be raised ever so slightly to give PUG leagues a fighting chance.
Otherwise its pretty good as it is, well except that the timer at the start needs to start instantly as people in the trial are killing mobs before they even count towards the 250.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
The trial is not very difficult, it is especially badges that are difficult (The Really Hard Way.... Urk).
Les virtuoses de la Cyberl�gion !
Atmox : Corruptor Rad/rad lvl 50.
Tu connais la chaleur Russe ?
http://www.badgetracker.net/
I have no problem with difficult content existing in the game. But my interest in this trials is minimal at best. I wouldn't blink at an eye at its existence if it weren't the barrier between me and Hybrid.
I will be farming this to get it out of the way. They've asked me to farm it anyway, I'm just cutting directly to the chase. I have little love for the incarnate trials as the sole source of incarnate advancement and would much rather have stuck to shards.
Eh, I'm not even that interested in getting Hybrid unlocked. The power designs seem very lackluster to me and their limited duration / long recharge situational nature won't provide much in the way of a noticeable improvement in my sole incarnate's performance. I already have bars full of temporary situational powers that have never been used either because I'm never in a situation that needs them or I've forgotten I even have them.
The Devs said in Beta that they'll (eventually) add a small group / solo path to unlock Hybrid. I'm going to avoid the stress of the ITrials altogether and wait for that.
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No other trial has had its iXP front-loaded quite this heavily. The only one that's comparable is Lambda, and notably, Lambda is the only other iTrial I've ever heard of being farmed for iXP. As far as I know, it took longer to come to pass, but it's important that its iXP reward is better distributed through more of the trial. (There's no reason you can't go on inside the labs and warehouse after you clear the road.)|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Apologists can say what they want: but with NO OTHER TRIAL have we seen trial "farms" within a few days of release. With no other trial! In fact I am not sure I have EVER seen someone wanting to "farm," say, Underground.
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Context is important. You can't say "this was farmed faster than any other trial" and ignore that the conditions for no other trial were ever quite the same.
Note that, when BAF and Lambda came out, Lambda was the only way to unlock Interface and Destiny, so there are some parallels with the Magesterium being the only way to unlock Hybrid. And what did people who found Lambda hard do? They farmed the IDF for iXP and then ran BAFs for drops. Sound familiar?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The early LAM runs were like that. Players would clear all they could for iXP because too often the trial would fail because of people not using acids/grenades. As time went on, players got better with temp powers. Now we have high risk slams for getting drops.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Not the same.|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
The early LAM runs were like that. Players would clear all they could for iXP because too often the trial would fail because of people not using acids/grenades. As time went on, players got better with temp powers. Now we have high risk slams for getting drops.
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This isnt any faster, easier or more fun than a lam or a baf?
So its never going to be run for components, so once the farming phase is over its going to the attic.
Also because players have gotten a bad taste in the mouth because of this, its not going to work.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Can you beat it on live with 14?
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Indeed. If it is not league wide/zone wide, I feel bad for not catching that in beta. If they are zone wide/league wide, they are eminently noticeable, there is monitor in the window showing how many lights are out.
I was on a small, impromptu league after the regen resistance was added. (on 4/27/12 and it is in the patch notes) but before the Quills became insta-gank. The regen resists were on beta for over a month before it went live. Care to histrionic more? We won with modest difficulty (we actually tried for about 4 minutes to do it without killing the lights with predictably poor results). The league had a few that had never done it and we were running with only 14 people. It was done in the early AM EDT. Once we started keeping the lights out and avoiding the lightning, it was hard, but manageable. On a PuG league, not optimized, with new people to the trial. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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I don't disagree, all of the MAG runs I have seen after the first couple real attempts I was on early in the day have all been 250 IDF farms.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Not the same.
This isnt any faster, easier or more fun than a lam or a baf? So its never going to be run for components, so once the farming phase is over its going to the attic. Also because players have gotten a bad taste in the mouth because of this, its not going to work. |
I can live with that, I was getting my ixp 20-25% in 7 minutes. I plan on this being SOP until the devs adjust things to be more PUG friendly. The question is, how much damage will be done in the meantime.
I know I'll be doing as many of these farm runs as I can until the trial is closed down because of all the whining about people all quit after 250 IDF.
All the devs have to do with this trial is tone down the -regen resistance and increase the time for well connections to reappear.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
I don't disagree, all of the MAG runs I have seen after the first couple real attempts I was on early in the day have all been 250 IDF farms.
I can live with that, I was getting my ixp 20-25% in 7 minutes. I plan on this being SOP until the devs adjust things to be more PUG friendly. The question is, how much damage will be done in the meantime. I know I'll be doing as many of these farm runs as I can until the trial is closed down because of all the whining about people all quit after 250 IDF. All the devs have to do with this trial is tone down the -regen resistance and increase the time for well connections to reappear. |
Tyrant is going to get nerfed so hard he is going to have a foam head.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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My smallest league so far was 19.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
Can you beat it on live with 14?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Said patch notes were (1) not properly stickied in the announcements section, and (2) not in the discussion section. In other words, buried.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I was on a small, impromptu league after the regen resistance was added. (on 4/27/12 and it is in the patch notes) but before the Quills became insta-gank. The regen resists were on beta for over a month before it went live. Care to histrionic more?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I honestly can't tell what's up with the level shifts. I'm not sure if they're bugged so that they don't work all the time, or if it's just something we're not doing. I think you know that I'm never a fan of raid mechanics that are poorly explained, though you and I have different thresholds on "poorness" in that regard.
But I agree that the level shifts should be noticeable without having to monitor your attributes (some visual effect). If they are not zone wide, there should be some indicator of where you have to be to get them. I tried all sorts of different things and sometimes I got a shift per pillar, and sometimes I got none. I don't know what controlled it or why, and that's not cool. |
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Tyrant's Regeneration is tied only to his health, not to the number of Light of the Well which remain alive. As Tyrant's health goes down, his regeneration goes up, in accordance with the bar displayed in the UI for Tyrant's "Favor of the Well".
The Light of the Well exist for one purpose and one purpose only - for each one which is not currently present, the entire league receives a level shift. This allows Leagues playing through the trial without chasing after badges to more than compensate for Tyrant's +5 level shift - if they regularly take out all the lights, they can climb to 50+9, or +10 with Ultimate inspirations, during the course of the fight. |
As to the regen:
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
We're going to add -Regen resist for all leagues, but a possible future tweak after seeing that change play out would be to lower the maximum scale of his Regeneration bonus from Favor of the Well. -Regen abilities are currently too strongly valued for this fight. The last thing I want to do is recreate a situation where the only debuff powersets anyone wants for an AV fight are those with spammable, stackable regen debuffs.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I've done it three times. First time was a PUG of 13 and we made it. Every other time we failed (with larger leagues). |
Originally Posted by newchemicals
Can you beat it on live with 14?
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The failures are due to people being incapable of listening to instructions. As mentioned above, this one doesn't have as much slack for the slackers. Everyone has to be on their game and paying attention to get by. If that is the case, it's really not that hard. I'm reasonably sure that once people get over their cranial rectal inversions, the success rates will improve markedly.
Too many alts to list.
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There are a whopping 9 threads in the Announcements section. Sure it wasn't stickied and sure it was the last thread. But there are only NINE. Also, it is in the Discussion section and it is the 4th thread on the page and has been since May 13th. In other words, you just missed it.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Said patch notes were (1) not properly stickied in the announcements section, and (2) not in the discussion section. In other words, buried.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
This was from April 23. I can tell you that looking at the patch notes that his Regeneration bonus from Favor of the Well hasn't been tweaked.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Dont think so, any trial that cant be done by half the league doing it correctly is doomed to fail horribly in pugs.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
I've done it three times. First time was a PUG of 13 and we made it. Every other time we failed (with larger leagues).
The failures are due to people being incapable of listening to instructions. As mentioned above, this one doesn't have as much slack for the slackers. Everyone has to be on their game and paying attention to get by. If that is the case, it's really not that hard. I'm reasonably sure that once people get over their cranial rectal inversions, the success rates will improve markedly. |
PERIOD.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
It's not the fault of the devs if they make a Trial that players fail because they won't follow instructions.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Then how did I manage it on a 13 person PUG? |
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Dont think so, any trial that cant be done by half the league doing it correctly is doomed to fail horribly in pugs.
PERIOD. |
PERIOD
Too many alts to list.
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Pro hax - or you belong to one of those leet WoW raiding guilds - or you slept with a dev or blackmailed a GM - the chances that you and your league succeed using only teamwork, planning and coordination are tiny, as the Trials aren't designed to be beaten that way.
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Then how did I manage it on a 13 person PUG?
PERIOD |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Scaling and a regular group that plays together.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Then how did I manage it on a 13 person PUG?
PERIOD |
a 13 person team doesnt face the same thing a 24 person does.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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BUt they know their players they have done this before.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's not the fault of the devs if they make a Trial that players fail because they won't follow instructions.
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If players fail because a few people dont follow instructions it gets a bad pug rap then never gets run.
Dont say this doesnt happen...
Keyes..... a few bad players could really mess this up before the nerf, so no one ran it, to the point they not only had to increase reward, they had to nerf it HARD too before anyone would run it.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Neither does a 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 or 23 person team |
Originally Posted by Shubbie
a 13 person team doesnt face the same thing a 24 person does.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Well, folks like me are happy to follow you around and point out how hyperbolic you're being, so I'm not sure why you think it will actually sway anyone. It's when people do things like that and are met by silence or largely universal agreement that they sway people.
It's not impossible the devs will adjust the trial, but I don't think we have enough run time with it for them to be making that judgment yet (no pun intended). If people are still failing it a lot next Friday, I'll concede something may need looking at. Right now, I just think it's too new.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA