Change WP and SR.
Not "Fix". Fix implies it is broken. WP was purposely made to have a weaker base taunt effect.
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It's the taunt duration of their taunt aura that causes the weak aggro. Super reflexes should be even worse.|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
The trick to this one is, if Tanks are de-facto better at managing aggro, more will be made redside, just as we now see Brutes springing up Blueside.
This has been my experience also. The actual use of Gauntlet is a little dodgy since everything it's going to affect most of the time is in your aggro aura anyway. Plus the area of effect for Gauntlet is very small. Things have to literally be standing next to the target you hit. Threat levels make a difference though. I've had no trouble maintaining aggro with my Dark/Dark Brute, for example, however my WP Tank has noticeably more difficulty with large mobs due to the lower threat level and maybe lack of a damage aura (not sure which reason is more prevalent in this regard). |
Also, attacks with high base damage can produce a taunt radius around 15 ft or so. While increasing damage doesn't increase the radius, it does increase the threat.
Found the formula once upon a time, let me look at my stuff here to see if I can reverse engineer it...
Okay
Threat by my old notes seems to be:
Damage(1 if no damage) * Threat Level * Taunt Duration * 1000 * 2.050
If there is a debuff involved then there is an additonal *2
Which is why Invincibility produces 139,400 threat, Against All Odds produces 278,800 threat, Blazing Aura produces 1,083,753 threat.
And Rise to the Challenge produces 20,500 threat and Evasion produces 8,2000 threat (since I don't remember tank evasion giving any debuffs).
Meanwhile the tanker attack aggro kings are: Seismic Smash, Knockout Blow and Total Focus tied at around 35 million and generally producing 15ft radius gauntlets and Chain Induction at around 47 million, but given it's a chain it might count as AoE and not have a gauntlet taunt beyond the directly hit targets.
I do not remember what that 2.05 is, but it is in all my formulas in my old notes.
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Then buff would be a better word, but the very weak aggro generation of WP and SR when compared to the other Tanker primaries can make things harder for users of those sets when tanking.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Change WP and SR.
Not "Fix". Fix implies it is broken. WP was purposely made to have a weaker base taunt effect. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
How about this,
Increase tank threat and aggro caps, then, add a momentum mechanic like Titan Weapons. Because once a tank gets rolling, etc.
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So steal a specific set's schtick, and then apply it to an AT, requiring additional animations of half (or more) of every attack power available to tanks? Requiring not just powers team time, but art?|
Originally Posted by Profit
How about this,
Increase tank threat and aggro caps, then, add a momentum mechanic like Titan Weapons. Because once a tank gets rolling, etc. |
Not going to happen.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
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Technically they just did this with the Stalker changes but didn't change the animations yet. Lots of powers team work though.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
So steal a specific set's schtick, and then apply it to an AT, requiring additional animations of half (or more) of every attack power available to tanks? Requiring not just powers team time, but art?
Not going to happen. |
So the question isn't can the devs do this (they've shown they can). The question becomes "Is this the change Tankers need?"
I don't know, not a tanker person but the changes Vitality suggested seem to make the most sense
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Raise Tankers Taunt to 10 targets max.
Raise Tankers aggro cap. Raise Tankers damage cap. (Possibly raise Tankers resistance cap to 95%) Lower Brutes resistance cap to 85% |
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No, they did. But it was one animation per stalker set, so it's nothing like changing it for Tanks, especially as they mostly just chopped out the waiting period of the AS. Which Tankers don't have in their attacks.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Technically they just did this with the Stalker changes but didn't change the animations yet. Lots of powers team work though.
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Animations are half the problem. They don't feel powerful. So, even if we don't use momentum on the AT, the animations need to be redone as well. Also, I don't care if it is a specific sets "schtick", ATs > sets
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
So steal a specific set's schtick, and then apply it to an AT, requiring additional animations of half (or more) of every attack power available to tanks? Requiring not just powers team time, but art?
Not going to happen. |
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Well good thing devs don't go adding stuff to the game willy nilly. That idea is time consuming, balance altering and non-sensical to me. Forget that some players hate Titan Weapons because they don't like Momentum, the idea sounds like you just blurted it out without actually thinking it through.
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Originally Posted by Profit
Animations are half the problem. They don't feel powerful. So, even if we don't use momentum on the AT, the animations need to be redone as well. Also, I don't care if it is a specific sets "schtick", ATs > sets
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Tanks seem broken cause the RED side Tanks (Brutes) can do more damage? What, there was the same argument made for scrappers, because Brutes can put up better damage numbers and survive more aggro? I've read posts on this thread that say buff the tanks. I do like the aggro cap idea, but it would lead to more farming (my fire tank likes this idea the most).
Now my first response to this thread was that tanks are fine. I do see that in later lvls and with good builds and incarnates that the rest of the pack catches up to the tankers. I think we want the wrong things buffed.
Go right now and join a random PUG team or TF. My money is w/o a tank you'd still fly though the game and be fine. You also didn't stand at the door waiting for a healer or debuffs. That's where this problem comes from (in part). Once was a time that you couldn't set a TF to -1. And teams not fighting purple patches of baddies were considered weak (yea... we never told you to your face...sorry). Everything given to us in this game has made the bad guys weaker and weaker. BUFF THE BAD GUYS.
I can remember on my first toon that we would struggle at times.... on missions.... yea! Sometimes finding a tank(er) and someone to keep the tank alive (tanks used to die =[ ) was the only way to get through. Later some of this was fixed with "game balancing". Another thing was the sidekick system was fixed (fix anything and you brake another).
Todays game can bore the heck outta me, but I still love this game (weird). Before posting this I was solo +3/8 with a lvl 37 grav/psi dom (not bragging..making a point) and I never died once. I Tank (herd) with my fire/kin fender. I herd the aggro cap (hotfeet herds better than those WP tanks =p ) to a corner and melt them. +4/8 (S/L baddies and no imps). \
We solo TFs and Trials and GMs and laugh at AVs. The game has not kept up with the players. When was the last time you went to bloody bay for a temp power 'cause you actually needed it?
The fix. #1) Get rid of -1 (maybe 0). #2) Buff all bad guy groups. Add more of what we hate... sappers and ummm I could only think of sappers. #3) Buff tanks... just a slight def/res increase per badguy and an increase in max health per teammate on the tanks team. #4) don't stop at 4... +5/8 +7/8... and give a greater chance of rare drops if set above +4.
Giving tanks more damage would make them loose their idenity. Making an enviroment where we will once again ask "do we have a tank?" will make Tankers what they all ways should have been. And will revive the healer market as an added bonus.
You can find +5 and greater in zones... I'd bring a tank.
Last
Check out this!!!! http://www.youtube.com/user/LastRoninCoH/featured
Getting rid of -1 and 0 diff unfairly penalizes some ATs who cannot solo as well. So I don't agree there. I've long asked for increases to enemies and better enemy AI but simply increasing hp and damage does not increase difficulty. I would point to groups like Arachnos and the BP where intermixed damage types and a wide variety of debugged make things harder than more coherently designed enemies.
I have previously suggested a diff setting that causes more sappers and similar enemies to spawn in groups. That would give us what we want without penalizing the less solo capable ATs.
Also, when two of a particular kind of enemy appear they should both use the full range of their powers. For example sky raider engineers. Sometimes you get three engineers in a spawn but only one of those ever drops a genny.
Adding more sappers makes definite sense. The Tsoo red/blue inks as well but they're already there. Make enemy debuff more common to bite that edge of ours. Bulk up some of those under utilized groups. For example, the warriors are characterized as being heavy into acquiring magic relics, but we never see any enemies outside of basic bruisers. We could stand to see warriors with flight or invisibility.
The game is designed around the idea that no one AT is ever necessary. That should be let. A tank should merely alter the options you have in approach rather than make it possible to win. Really we're having an easy time now because, after eight years, we've pretty much memorized all the standard room placements and static mobs are inherently vulnerable. Implementing more patrolling enemies, perhaps fluctuating base perception on the baddies to represent them looking around. Right now we can reliably predict both when and where a fight happens. If that is taken away things get more challenging.
However each element of supposed difficulty has, in the past, been railed against by players as being no fun.
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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I did actually think it through. Most people are screaming for more damage. Or screaming against more damage. Momentum would allow more damage by making the attacks come faster, would encourage use of gauntlet and bruising by... making tanks attack more (shock), these two things would give tanks something somewhat unique, help them solo a hair faster, and make multiple tanks non redundant. The animations are just a quality of life change to make things feel more powerful. Right now, the only set that feels powerful to me is Stone Melee. And to clairfy, I wasn't talking about completely changing animations, I see my error in wording. What I was talking about was adding effects, like the air disturbance currently used in Quantum Acceleration added to attacks for super strength.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well good thing devs don't go adding stuff to the game willy nilly. That idea is time consuming, balance altering and non-sensical to me. Forget that some players hate Titan Weapons because they don't like Momentum, the idea sounds like you just blurted it out without actually thinking it through.
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Also, while I do like this discussion, we need to keep one thing in mind.
As a playerbase we are capable of effecting changes. Whatever we decide as a good "fix" we all need to be behind 100% so that when/if it's presented to Synapse we do so as a group. The devs are not opposed to hearing our opinions and even do implement them, but we as a group can not go off guns ablazin.
So let's keep discussing this and maybe come to a agreement.
It will not hurt me at all to be disagreed with on some of my ideas, but they are options we can consider.
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Problem with the momentum mechanic, is it would likely be seen as...|
Originally Posted by Profit
Also, while I do like this discussion, we need to keep one thing in mind.
As a playerbase we are capable of effecting changes. Whatever we decide as a good "fix" we all need to be behind 100% so that when/if it's presented to Synapse we do so as a group. The devs are not opposed to hearing our opinions and even do implement them, but we as a group can not go off guns ablazin. So let's keep discussing this and maybe come to a agreement. It will not hurt me at all to be disagreed with on some of my ideas, but they are options we can consider. |
1) Way to time consuming to be worth while
2) It's more a powerset gimmick than a whole AT specific gimmick (outside of a possible new Epic AT)
Sadly also, there likely isn't going to be a 100% agreed upon solution.
In fact, one suggestion of increasing Tankers Damage cap, is less about teaming, and more about allowing a fringe case of Tanker powersets that can reach the cap on their own solo.
I'm not against such a change myself, buuuut, it's also not a change that will help Tankers as a whole.
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The BrandX Collection
We have already 100% agreed upon part of the solution I thought, which was raising the aggro cap for tanks. I do not recall seeing any against that.
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While I like that idea (if we are talking something small, like 20-27), it may not be trivial to implement. The aggro cap may be a universal entity rather than an AT dependent one.|
Originally Posted by Profit
We have already 100% agreed upon part of the solution I thought, which was raising the aggro cap for tanks. I do not recall seeing any against that.
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I have also always been fond of the idea of making tanker Taunt hit up to 8 targets in a 20 foot radius, leave brute Taunt as is (5 targets, 15'r), and up scrapper Confront/Challenge/whatever to 3 targets, 10'r.
And while I am not for increasing tanker damage, I do think a review of AT mods and AT caps is likely a very good idea at this stage of the game's life.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Are you doing that on SOs or with permadom and def softcaps?|
Originally Posted by LAST_RONIN
Todays game can bore the heck outta me, but I still love this game (weird). Before posting this I was solo +3/8 with a lvl 37 grav/psi dom (not bragging..making a point) and I never died once. I Tank (herd) with my fire/kin fender. I herd the aggro cap (hotfeet herds better than those WP tanks =p ) to a corner and melt them. +4/8 (S/L baddies and no imps). \
We solo TFs and Trials and GMs and laugh at AVs. The game has not kept up with the players. When was the last time you went to bloody bay for a temp power 'cause you actually needed it? |
I won't argue that the players have gotten more savvy and the new powersets stronger because they have but most of what makes the game boring is being able to turn anything into a tankmage with IOs and now Incarnate powers, and that is each player's choice to do so. Game too easy for you? Don't use Set IOs.
Unfortunately that is as far as any particular player can control the difficulty without avoiding content. I don't enjoy Judgement and Barrier spam so I must either avoid content above level 44 or put up with Gundam level power spam. Even if they put in a challenge setting to disable incarnate clickies it wouldn't be something that'd ever get pugged.
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I disagree with it.|
Originally Posted by Profit
We have already 100% agreed upon part of the solution I thought, which was raising the aggro cap for tanks. I do not recall seeing any against that.
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Until I see a clear problem statement I won't agree to any solution. Because they aren't solutions they are just random suggested buffs.
When people state an actual problem with tankers the solutions are easy and obvious. The problem with this thread is people unwilling to state a problem because what they really want is a buff to tankers which is not justified.
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Not everyone agrees with this idea, so it's not 100%. I personally don't think it's "necessary", nor a "fix" to tanks.|
Originally Posted by Profit
We have already 100% agreed upon part of the solution I thought, which was raising the aggro cap for tanks. I do not recall seeing any against that.
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I also believe that aggro caps are universal across all character, so if you raise the aggro caps for Tanks, you would essentially be raising brute, scrapper, blaster, etc aggro caps too.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I have to agree with this. I see no need to buff Tankers, or screw with Brute survivability just to make Tanks feel better. I play both, and enjoy each for different reasons.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I disagree with it.
Until I see a clear problem statement I won't agree to any solution. Because they aren't solutions they are just random suggested buffs. When people state an actual problem with tankers the solutions are easy and obvious. The problem with this thread is people unwilling to state a problem because what they really want is a buff to tankers which is not justified. |
The role of 'Tank' doesn't directly fit into the Superhero Genre short of a few instances. Ben Grimm fighting the Hulk to distract him so the authorities could get everyone evacuated safely is pure tanking (and a really old-school reference- great comic though... sigh, I feel old now) so there is precident for the role in some capacity. However, it's important to the balance of the game, and an important role in many team compositions. We can't play out direct comic-book fights because of the limitations of computer programming and honestly, enjoyment of gameplay (like knockback happens all the time in comic books to everyone melee and ranged alike- do we really want that?)
So in it's most direct form, a Tank is the melee aggro manager, taking the alpha and hits for the team, skillfully arranging the aggro so everyone else can fill their role to their fullest (mass control, AoE's, keeping everything close for buffs, debuffs, etc).
Tanks can do this just fine.
Thing is, as people keep pointing out, so can Brutes... just as well as Tanks.
This has less to do with what they can survive, than it does with how well they can hold aggro. Sure, they need some to generate Fury, but they don't need to do it as well as a Tank. When the AoE's start flying, some of that stuff needs to peel off them and redirect their attack.
Adjusting their Threat rating alone could fix this. It wouldn't hurt them at all solo, while making Tanks on the team more desirable for aggro management. Brutes would still be welcome on teams the same as Scrappers, for their damage output and to help with aggro management. I kind of see Brutes as that bridge between Tanks and Scrappers. Able to dish it out, but able to generate a little more aggro than Scrappers to protect teammates. Scrappers have the advantage of the best reliable sustained damage of the three.
It's more a matter of role enforcement than giving a serious debuff or buff to anybody. Other than that, I don't see a problem with any of them.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Not everyone agrees with this idea, so it's not 100%. I personally don't think it's "necessary", nor a "fix" to tanks.
I also believe that aggro caps are universal across all character, so if you raise the aggro caps for Tanks, you would essentially be raising brute, scrapper, blaster, etc aggro caps too. |
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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I personally don't think tankers need anything added or brutes anything taken away.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I disagree with it.
Until I see a clear problem statement I won't agree to any solution. Because they aren't solutions they are just random suggested buffs. When people state an actual problem with tankers the solutions are easy and obvious. The problem with this thread is people unwilling to state a problem because what they really want is a buff to tankers which is not justified. |
But I would not say no to a tanker buff or even blink at a brute reduction.
/shrug
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I think ppl are too hard on Butane. He generally has good points about Tankers. I think the Devs could come up with an interesting new mechanic for Tankers that addressed some of the damage issues -- I think Johnny even suggested a type of toggle that would let the tank trade off survivability for damage (like "Enraged" or something). Or they could do something similar to what they did for Defenders: buff damage when solo, ramp it down as team size grows. Raising the damage cap would be a nice touch too, to encourage teaming. *shrug*
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I think the problem is with people like you, who only have their sights set on *ONE* particular improvement or looking at *ONLY* a specific metric of performance.
You're not trying to make the AT fun and unique, you're trying to make them Brutes. So if the devs appear to not want to mess with Tankers is probably because they don't want to be dumb and copy what Brutes are like you seem to want to do. I have no problem improving the quality of damage dealing on a Tanker but pointing at Brute and whining about what they get shouldn't be an avenue action to starting the process of Tanker improvements...or any AT improvements for that matter. |
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What tanker damage issue?|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I think the Devs could come up with an interesting new mechanic for Tankers that addressed some of the damage issues
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Tankers do not have a damage issue. They solo fine.
They do less damage than blasters, scrappers, stalkers, and brutes - as expected
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I've never known the aggro caps to be universal. To be fair though, only the melee ATs survive very long at the aggro cap, so Could be.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Not everyone agrees with this idea, so it's not 100%. I personally don't think it's "necessary", nor a "fix" to tanks.
I also believe that aggro caps are universal across all character, so if you raise the aggro caps for Tanks, you would essentially be raising brute, scrapper, blaster, etc aggro caps too. |
So overall; normalize Tank aggro ability across the board (basically just fix WP and SR... is Sheild low too?) maybe a modest boost to their aggro cap, then adjust all Brute aggro ability to current WP/SR levels, and maybe lower their aggro cap just a hair. This, of course, would need to be tested, and there may be a tweak needed in Fury generation if it affects it too much. Examine Scrapper aggro too just for good measure.
Possibly add a visual effect to Guantlet as someone mentioned just to enforce what it does visually for players. That would also give Tanks an idea of where there may be weak spots in their management. Maybe something like the 'stun' swirls around someone's head, except in red?
I've been playing a lot of my Tanks and Brutes lately since this thread was brought up, trying to get a feel for what that 'something' could be. I honestly think both of them are fine as is for the most part, but I think they are very overlapping in style, expecially in the high-end game, with brutes doing more damage (as just about everyone agrees). A few minor tweaks could go a long way to differentiating between them without harming either one. The easiest place that could be adjusted with minimal muss would be in aggro management. I say muss instead of harm, because I'm happy with how both AT performance as they stand, and wouldn't want to see that changed. They do need a different 'appeal' to them though that's not as prevalent as it could be currently. Happy Brutes should see a nice Fury bar, while happy Tanks should see lots of aggro.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.