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Claws, having read how you came up to the .85 scalar in some of your previous posts I won't argue against your conclusion. On the outside (as we all are ) looking in, it makes sense to a certain point. Like you, I'm not advocating for that change, but I certainly wouldn't turn it down. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I also see no need to buff Tankers.
However, my suggestions to adjust Brute survivability had nothing to do with "making Tankers feel better". I play and enjoy both as well. My concern was with the actual balance of it. The balance point of Brutes has been stated to be intended to be between Tankers and Scrappers. In normal solo or small team gameplay, this is true. But in heavy buff situations in leagues or large buff-heavy teams, Brutes can get very close to Tanker survivability while occasionally surpassing Scrapper damage output. I don't want to screw with any Brute base values for anything, but I still feel their maximum potential should be dialed down a little bit. Not drastically, but enough so that their performance falls between Tankers and Scrappers across the full range, instead of equaling or surpassing them at the top end. The only real way to accomplish that is by reducing resistance and damage caps. Again, not drastically. If damage and resistance caps were reduced, it would have little to no affect on solo and small team play, as I have never seen a Brute reach its respective caps on its own (other than through inspiration use, and that is limited in duration). But it would put Brutes closer to being between Tankers and Scrappers when heavily buffed, where they are allegedly supposed to be. (I say allegedly because I do not know where to find a dev quote that explicitly states it, but I do remember reading it coming from a dev) (This is coming from someone who currently has 6 Brutes on the only server I play on, so AT bias has NOTHING to do with my reasoning. I state this because I've been accused being biased toward Scrappers in the past. It's not true.) The only buff I would support to Tankers is a very slight damage scalar increase, from .8 to .85. It would help Tankers in a couple ways: 1) They would solo slightly better, and 2) They would hold agro better*. I'm not going to campaign for such a buff, but I support the notion of it. I also concur with your suggestion of adjusting Threat levels so Tankers will hold agro better than they do now (which is already the best). It's debatable how much it would really accomplish in terms of a "fix", but it would reinforce the role of a Tanker as agro manager. I also feel that it doesn't matter whether anyone agrees with how necessary a Tanker is on a team, because the game has never been about forcing people into one pre-determined playstyle. The role of tank is as necessary as the people playing them or forming teams feel it is, and not one bit more or less. I don't like Masterminds, but I will never say they are unnecessary or try to change the way they play so I will like them better. I just don't play them and let the people who enjoy playing that role do so without trying to force my preferences on them. (*The bit about holding agro better is because damage dealt plays a role in how well agro is held by a given character. If it did not, it would be impossible for a Blaster to pull agro off a Tanker once it is established. And we've all seen Blasters pull agro before.) |
Whatever changes they "eventually" do down the line, I'm hoping that there will be some minimal "force multiplication" by having more then a single tank on a team. Not to force people into needing 2 or more, but to remove some of the stigma of "why would we want a second tank?"
My current preference would be for the developers to leverage bruising better. Ideas for that still continue to be the following:
- Make a portion of it stack from multiple tanks.
- Add a second effect, like -regen, that does stack.
- Make the bruising from the tier 1 attack smaller and add bruising to all tank attacks. Allow them to stack from more then one tank, etc.
I have no idea if these would work, or even be preferable, but I hope it's a place to start. Adding a debuff to all tank attacks would also add to tank threat generation, upping the aggro control.
Having seen some of the things that Synapse and Arbiter Hawk have been doing with the ATs and power sets lately, I'm looking forward to seeing what changes we'll see down the line. Hopefully sooner then i30.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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You could have it grant +taunt enhancement, much like a few powers grant +end reduction. I think that could work and it would certainly improve a tank's hate levels.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Some people brought up the fact that +threat might not work...and now I think it would work better as a +aggro cap increase as well as a +gauntlet duration increase.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I posted this in the "Consolidated Tanker Imporvement Ideas" thread.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Changes I would make:
Give all Tanker Taunt auras an inherent +agro cap mechanic. For each enemy in the taunt aura radius it raises their aggro cap by 1 foe up to a maximum of 10. Therefore, with 10 enemies in your taunt aura radius...Tankers will effectively have an agro cap of 27. (or simply just raise their cap to 27) Raise Tankers Taunt to 10 targets max and it's radius to 20'. Raise Tankers resistance cap to 95% Raise Tankers damage cap. Make Gauntlet truly inherent to Tanker attacks. Give Tankers the new "Inherent Power" Determination. Determination would be a generating bar...that is a mix of Fury and Domination...in a way. The Determination bar would be generated by attacking and being attacked. The Determination bar would grant +res and +global taunt enhancement and +radius on gauntlet. Max Determination would be around 15% res...with the other buffs TBD. Determination would also come with a "This Ends Now"...click power....that can be activated whenever Determination is over TBD. This Ends Now grants +acc/+dam that lasts for a TBD amount of time. However...when This Ends Now is clicked...it will lock you out of Determination generation for a certain amount of time. (Determination would continue generating as usual if you never click This Ends Now) Edit: Was also thinking that the +agro mechanic could be added to "Determination"...if it were possible. Making it so that the "This Ends Now" click power would have to be used with some thought. Meaning that it would be "bad" to use it if you're currently holding more enemies than the normal agro cap...as you would suddenly lose the ability to hold agro on that many enemies. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
(This is coming from someone who currently has 6 Brutes on the only server I play on, so AT bias has NOTHING to do with my reasoning. I state this because I've been accused of being biased toward Scrappers in the past. It's not true.) |
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Of course not. You play Scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Vitality
This was my idea. Obviously tweaks would have to be made...but you can see the main idea that I was proposing.
I could see getting rid of the fury-like +dam so that it doesn't strike people as a copycat power. (Just an idea...you could have it add +res...in the same way fury adds +dam.) Some people brought up the fact that +threat might not work...and now I think it would work better as a +aggro cap increase as well as a +gauntlet duration increase. I quotted your post...because the proposed "this ends now" power reminds me of the "it's clobberin' time" quote from the thing. The main focus is protecting the team...but when that is taken care of...and there is one big bad left...all it comes down to is "this ends now" or "it's clobberin' time". |
To be brutally honest, the fact that it uses a bar means right off the bat it is unlikely to happen. Any change or suggestion for Tankers that involves additional departments (art, interface, sound, etc) means it's much less likely to go through.
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I would just like to contribute/reiterate some changes that I feel tanks need. A lot of what I've seen is people wanting tanks to turn into beefier brutes with slightly less damage, which they should not be. ATs should be clearly defined, and having 3 melee classes with overlapping roles contradicts that theme.
Tank base damage should be scaled up slightly; I agree with raising .8 to .85 or to .9. Tank damage is just kind of sad in its current state, even viewed objectively apart from scrappers and brutes.
1. All tank powers should have bruising, and bruising should stack. If a tank is doing his job, and staying in the fight, it shouldn't turn into a stalemate. He should eventually win if he can survive long enough. I'm not saying he should turn into a raging hulk like a brute, but instead his mechanic would be to "wear down" the opponent and outlast him.
2. Tanks should have double the current aggro cap. This helps them establish their role on the team, which is to soak aggro and incoming damage. As it is, tanks are already incredibly tanky, so much so that the current aggro cap is somewhat demeaning to them. The real problem with tanks is not being able to hold aggro, whereas their problem should be trying to not pull too much. In this regard, their threat generation should also be increased from 400% to 500%, and their taunt should have a higher target limit than the Brute version.
3. Gauntlet should make all ST tank powers deal splash or cleave damage to affected targets. A percentage (maybe 20-25%) of the damage dealt to your primary target should bleed off onto up to 4 adjacent targets. A problem that a lot of tanks have is that they can group up enemies neatly and hold them there, but they're burdened with having mostly ST attacks. Most tank secondary pools only have 1 AoE attack and some have a cone or two. Tanking is effectively a two-step process: you group up enemies, then you slowly whittle them down. Having splash damage speeds up the second step, and adds incentive to perform the first step well through synergy. Thematically, the force of your blows shouldn't just taunt nearby foes; it should impact them as well.
These 3 ideas together should keep Tanks separate from Brutes and Scrappers and enhance their role in tanking. They should also be able to solo somewhat more easily. I do agree that Blasters need a change as well, but that's not my area of expertise, so I'll leave that to someone else.
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I'm against this. I think Tanker base damage is fine where it is.|
Originally Posted by BiohazardZero
Tank base damage should be scaled up slightly; I agree with raising .8 to .85 or to .9. Tank damage is just kind of sad in its current state, even viewed objectively apart from scrappers and brutes.
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| 1. All tank powers should have bruising, and bruising should stack. If a tank is doing his job, and staying in the fight, it shouldn't turn into a stalemate. He should eventually win if he can survive long enough. I'm not saying he should turn into a raging hulk like a brute, but instead his mechanic would be to "wear down" the opponent and outlast him. |
I am against Bruising stacking. Bruising is less an improvement to Tankers and more an improvement to everyone else. My damage doesn't look any better when I buff the entire team's damage, including that of any Brutes or Scrappers.
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| 2. Tanks should have double the current aggro cap. |
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| 3. Gauntlet should make all ST tank powers deal splash or cleave damage to affected targets. A percentage (maybe 20-25%) of the damage dealt to your primary target should bleed off onto up to 4 adjacent targets. |
The only thing Tankers need is to have their damage cap brought in line with Brutes and perhaps a gimmick mechanic for combat flavor in addition to that.
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But then you've just got brutes with marginally different stat scalings. We should be trying to make the class more diverse; not trying to make them brute clones.
Tanks have a .8 damage scale, and brutes have .75. If you raise the tank damage cap to the same as the brute cap, then you've just got fury-less brutes that deal 6-7% more base damage, higher resists, and 10% more HP. At this point, tanks and brutes would practically overlap.
Tanks play more of a support role to the team, so allowing bruising to stack does help the team, which is a good thing. Doubling the aggro cap does not cut survivability in half. Tanking should be a game of aggro management. Just because you can hold aggro on 34 enemies at the same time doesn't mean you have to. Enemies won't just automatically start hitting the Tank and ignoring everyone else; other teammates have aggro tables of their own. It should be about juggling aggro, not just holding as many as your brute. Who knows, maybe this will also give healers a role on the team?
I don't see why improving Tanker AoE damage is necessarily a bad thing, and why it shouldn't count as a gimmick mechanic.
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Because right now, the only real use for Tankers is as cheap farmers to bankroll other ATs until you can get a Brute IO'd out. Improving their AoE damage only makes them more attractive to be abused this way.|
Originally Posted by BiohazardZero
I don't see why improving Tanker AoE damage is necessarily a bad thing, and why it shouldn't count as a gimmick mechanic.
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Second, I feel that it's not true to the concept of Tankers. They're not bullies that target underlings. It's more fitting to have Scrappers and Brutes to be taking out swaths of lesser mooks. That's what Wolverine does; cuts down throngs of ninjas. Hulk tosses around soldiers. Tankers, think like military tanks; they have one big cannon that is turned on the hard targets. The team's Big Guy is who they roll out to fight other big guys, not step on little guys. In fact, heroic Tankers take care not to hurt the little guys, protecting is so ingrained in them they hold back on the mooks and cut loose on the guys who can take it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...5UwS57X8#t=30s
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Fixed to show what your current perception is of tanks.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Because right now, the only real use JOHNNY SEES for Tankers is as cheap farmers to bankroll other ATs until you can get a Brute IO'd out. Improving their AoE damage only makes them more attractive to be abused this way.
Second, I feel that it's not true to the concept of Tankers. They're not bullies that target underlings. It's more fitting to have Scrappers and Brutes to be taking out swaths of lesser mooks. That's what Wolverine does; cuts down throngs of ninjas. Hulk tosses around soldiers. Tankers, think like military tanks; they have one big cannon that is turned on the hard targets. The team's Big Guy is who they roll out to fight other big guys, not step on little guys. In fact, heroic Tankers take care not to hurt the little guys, protecting is so ingrained in them they hold back on the mooks and cut loose on the guys who can take it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...5UwS57X8#t=30s |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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In my experience, brutes make much, much better farmers than tanks. With and without fancy IOs. Tanks are team-support.
You know that whole Superman 'World of Cardboard' thing from that cartoon show? Yeah, I hate it. It's dumb. 
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I'm not trying to force comic book characters into CoH molds, I'm just pointing to the ones which are most like the ATs here. As I said before, it's not a one-for-one translation from the medium of comics to the medium of MMOs. Based on what I've seen, the original intent of the designers *was* to allow people to mix-and-match powers to more closely emulate the comic book characters, but they fell back on classic MMO design. The explanation given at the time was that people were unintentionally gimping themselves by choosing power combinations which were weaker. I don't know how true that is since it's something that can be designed around if you aren't hewing *too* closely to the source material.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No. Both of those characters can deal substantial damage.
You'd have to be pretty ignorant of the character to think Juggernaut is low damage. He's fought and beaten guys like Thor and Hulk. He's well over the 100 ton range of strength. And Ben Grim's very catchphrase is "It's clobberin' time!" Not "It's time for me to stand here and be a decoy while Reed does the fighting". I've listed the characters who are the closest to how CoH Tankers are currently. They're all joke characters or obscure nobodies because melee fighters who are poor at fighting aren't something most people want to read about. And if the popularity of Tankers versus Brutes or Scrappers is any indication, most people don't want to play one either. Even if you point to specific, brief examples of "tanking" in comic, the fact is, at times, almost every super hero takes a hit for another. I can point you to panel of the Human Torch taking a hit for Iceman. It does NOT mean that is their primary focus above all they spend an entire fight doing to the point they're nigh useless for anything else. Stop trying force comic characters into a stupid nonsensical design as rodeo clowns. That is the mistake the devs made. If you're going to evoke the genre, do right by it. They should have been trying to design the game to serve the needs of the genre instead of what they did in many cases, including Tankers. They beat the genre with a hammer and then mashed the square peg into their round design hole just to suit their ridiculous trinity and outdated fantasy gaming mechanics. . |
The Thing and Juggernaut act primarily as Tanks most of the time. Yes, they can hit quite hard, but then so do our Tanks. Naturally, this varies by writer as he bends the character and the world to suit the needs of his story, but at the end of the day Juggernaut is a Tank, as is The Thing. Blob is even more so. I never said they were low damage, just that they act more like Bricks than Blasters. But as others have pointed out, The Thing frequently acts as the damage sponge, stalling the Big Bad until the Controller/Mastermind/Scrapper Mr. Fantastic can finish him off.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Examples of self-gimpage from the early tests - Emp/FF.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
You know what - if they really wanted to fix Tankers then they'd quit breaking Gauntlet (or quit having Gauntlet break everything else for that matter) in test and then releasing those same patches with it still broken on live servers before repairs are made. Gauntlet got broke again in I23 and I have yet to see if they actually fixed it this time before releasing the issue. It was adversely harming proc rates again last we checked on test.
If Fury were ever breaking things like that, you'd see heads roll.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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That has nothing to do with the current discussion. The issue isn't that Tankers can't get or don't have the right powers or power sets. The issue is the AT modifiers and caps.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
I'm not trying to force comic book characters into CoH molds, I'm just pointing to the ones which are most like the ATs here. As I said before, it's not a one-for-one translation from the medium of comics to the medium of MMOs. Based on what I've seen, the original intent of the designers *was* to allow people to mix-and-match powers to more closely emulate the comic book characters, but they fell back on classic MMO design. The explanation given at the time was that people were unintentionally gimping themselves by choosing power combinations which were weaker. I don't know how true that is since it's something that can be designed around if you aren't hewing *too* closely to the source material.
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| The Thing and Juggernaut act primarily as Tanks most of the time. |
No, they don't. The majority of issues of the Fantastic Four don't involve the Thing standing in the middle of groups of enemies and yelling insults at them and hitting like a girl while the rest of the team sit safely on the sidelines and attack from afar.
Juggernaut doesn't even have a regular team. He was usually paired with as a duo with Black Tom, and he certainly wasn't focused primarily on being his bodyguard, he was there as the powerhouse and certainly did more damage than Tom who was the brains of the operation.
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| Yes, they can hit quite hard, but then so do our Tanks. |
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So you're saying in addition to screwing up Assault Radial's Doublehit , Gauntlet is broke? Again. Why am I not surprised?|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
You know what - if they really wanted to fix Tankers then they'd quit breaking Gauntlet (or quit having Gauntlet break everything else for that matter) in test and then releasing those same patches with it still broken on live servers before repairs are made. Gauntlet got broke again in I23 and I have yet to see if they actually fixed it this time before releasing the issue. It was adversely harming proc rates again last we checked on test.
If Fury were ever breaking things like that, you'd see heads roll. |
Oh wonderful. Yeah, it's only Tankers this happens to. If Fury broke, the dozens of Brutes in the Beta would have noticed, screamed at the devs and it would have been an overnight fix.
Besides myself, Sylph you and one other person were the only ones I saw in the beta testing Tankers. All these people in this thread who claim to care about Tankers and play them (and like to claim I hate Tankers) can't even be bothered to get on Beta and look out for them. Because the devs obviously aren't.
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Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
You know what - if they really wanted to fix Tankers then they'd quit breaking Gauntlet (or quit having Gauntlet break everything else for that matter) in test and then releasing those same patches with it still broken on live servers before repairs are made. Gauntlet got broke again in I23 and I have yet to see if they actually fixed it this time before releasing the issue. It was adversely harming proc rates again last we checked on test.
If Fury were ever breaking things like that, you'd see heads roll. |
quoted for a crap load of truth.
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The tanker problem with double-hit was first noticed on beta the day it was released. There was at least one other player of a tanker besides you who was checking it out (and you were making helpful reports on the problem as well). It's not game-breaking and the fix just didn't make it in time for release (I haven't tested this on live personally, but I take your word that it is true).
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Besides myself, Sylph you and one other person were the only ones I saw in the beta testing Tankers. All these people in this thread who claim to care about Tankers and play them (and like to claim I hate Tankers) can't even be bothered to get on Beta and look out for them. Because the devs obviously aren't.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Get off your high horse. You're not the only person in CoX that plays a tank, least of all in the beta. It's a well-known issue that Gauntlet has been broken for a while.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Besides myself, Sylph you and one other person were the only ones I saw in the beta testing Tankers. All these people in this thread who claim to care about Tankers and play them (and like to claim I hate Tankers) can't even be bothered to get on Beta and look out for them. Because the devs obviously aren't.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No, our Tankers don't. They are the least hardest hitting melee AT in the game and even some ATs who aren't even about melee like Blasters and Doms that share some of the same melee attacks hit harder.
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Superman: That man won't quit as long as he can still draw a breath, none of my teammates will. Me? I've got a different problem.
Superman: I feel like I live in a world made of cardboard, always taking care not to break something...to break someone, never allowing myself to lose control even for a moment as someone could die.
Superman: But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose and show you just how powerful I really am.
And where I think this example falls flat into inapplicable territory is simple:
You cannot be trusted with 'World of Cardboard' power. None of you are responsible enough. Out of the many dozens of fights Superman gets into, how many are 'rare opportunities to cut loose and show just how powerful he really is'? At most maybe 1 fight out of 50 or even 1 out of 100. But you, those forumites over there and those players in-game won't delegate that power boost to such rare opportunities, no. You will use it *EVERY* *CHANCE* you get. You'll munch on those reds, you'll call for extra kinetics, you'll play the recharge game, everything and anything to milk whatever 'holy mother of punch' you can out of whatever you get.
Seeking a buff that is equivalent or quantitatively rational to what Supes gets from that speech would help Tankers on so rare an occasion, it's a wonder why bring the example up in the first place. To use *it* as justification for your stance is foolish.
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During the beta, the first few busy days, I ran the Mag trial ten times total. Five to unlock Hybrid for my Tanker, and five for my Brute. Of those ten times, I was one of two Tankers present for five of them, and my Brute saw one for the remaining five. And I didn't see anyone besides Sylph and myself discussing the Doublehit issue with Gauntlet on the forums.|
Originally Posted by BiohazardZero
You're not the only person in CoX that plays a tank, least of all in the beta.
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Given there was a poor turnout in general for i23 testing, that doesn't suggest there was a big Tanker turnout compared to how many people claim to be avid Tankers in threads like these.
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| You disagree with raising tank damage |
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| yet you keep saying that their damage is too low |
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Again, it's well known that Gauntlet has issues with any and all procs. Double-hit included.
Why else insist on raising only the damage cap, when Tankers don't inherently have any way of reliably reaching that cap? Unless of course you're rage stacking or using AAO and Dark Consumption. I'm guessing you're suggesting this change because you're probably a fire/SS tank that tries to farm, and you're upset that you're outclassed by Brutes. A higher damage cap would only affect a select few tanks or tanks that have a team with the means to buff their damage beyond the normal cap. This is rarely the case.
Tanks don't need a higher damage cap, they just need slightly higher base damage. We're not competing with Brutes. They have their somewhat-muddied role, and ours is to control aggro management and support the team. Tanks and brutes should not be the same; I fail to understand your logic on this matter. Diversity is the key here, not congruity.
Regardless, unless the Tanker damage cap is raised in addition to it, it's largely pointless, which is why I'm fighting for the cap to be changed first and foremost.
The Determination bar would be generated by attacking and being attacked.
The Determination bar would grant +damage and +threat...and +radius on gauntlet (if possible)
Max Determination would be around a 30% damage buff and a TBD threat buff.
Determination would also come with a "This Ends Now"...click power....that can be activated whenever Determination is over 80% or 85%.
This Ends Now grants +acc/+dam/+dam cap that lasts for a TBD amount of time.
However...when This Ends Now wears off (however long it lasts)...it will lock you out of Determination generation for a certain amount of time.
(Determination would continue generating as usual if you never click This Ends Now)
(Just an idea...you could have it add +res...in the same way fury adds +dam.)
Some people brought up the fact that +threat might not work...and now I think it would work better as a +aggro cap increase as well as a +gauntlet duration increase.
I quotted your post...because the proposed "this ends now" power reminds me of the "it's clobberin' time" quote from the thing.
The main focus is protecting the team...but when that is taken care of...and there is one big bad left...all it comes down to is "this ends now" or "it's clobberin' time".