Anyone Tired of COX and Paragon Market

In your opinion.

I wonder if Jack didn't ask Positron to kill off his characters because he didn't like them being used in a game that he wasn't a part of. Maybe posi was doing states a favor? This seems more likely to me than killing his old friend's characters out of spite...

Statesman was the iconic figure of this game.

He was hardly used by the writers following the split.

So, no that's not just my opinion ... that was reality.



You saw him as a douchey - others didn't, so that is your opinion.

If he had no weaknesses, how come he's dead?

Only his is right.

A bit more seriously, the only reason the Statesman came off as a Mary Sue is the writers never did anything with him. He was always just sort of there, being more awesome than the game could depict. All of the Phalanx were. The proper way to give them character development was to do pretty much this - give them character development.

From the very onset of the Incarnate storyline, the Statesman was painted as weak and left wanting. The Well can control him, but it can't control us. The Statesman was just a regular man when he drank of the well. We are just about at an equal footing with him by level 50, and THEN we start messing with the Well and getting even more power. Considerably more than the Statesman ever had. All of a sudden, he's put of his depth among people with equal power to his own, often even greater, who are not hamstrung by the Well's control. All of a sudden, the world's most powerful hero isn't. All of a sudden, he's reduced to a supporting role because were we're going, he can't follow.

The best way to "depower" the Statesman is to just shift the power level of the game up and leave him where he is. That way, he still works as an icon to up-and-coming heroes, but he is no longer the unreachable, unmitigated Mary Sue, because towards the end, we do reach and exceed him. BECAUSE the Statesman has been built up as this massive powerhose is exactly why it is so satisfying to surpass his power.

That can't happen now that he's dead.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

You know what they say about assumptions...

And, yeah, that's all your accusation is. Spite? Seriously?

Most recognizable? Maybe. Marketable? Pff, yeah right. Actually, it seems he was pretty widely viewed as an over the top, one-dimensional Mary Sue.

He was also the in-game representation of the man who left to head up a company making the game's biggest competitor in the genre. So, yeah, I'm only surprised it took them this long to remove him. But I wouldn't call that "spite".

Let's keep it civil here. This is a friendly discussion.

That's my take on the reasoning for killing Statesman

What's your take on it?

Statesman was easily the most recognizable character in the game. I'm not sure how you can apply 'maybe' to that?

So what?
Again, observe the comic book superhero milieu. People create characters, other people pick them up and write about them and draw them, those characters are irrevocably altered in the process even up to "death", as little as it means in terms of the genre.

Take, for example...oh, Jean Grey.

Originally conceived as 'Marvel Girl' by Stan Lee & Jack Kirby.
Re-invented as Phoenix by Chris Claremont & Dave Cockrum.
Becomes the world-destroying Dark Phoenix under the creative direction of Claremont, Byrne & Austin.
Is killed at the command of Jim Shooter, an editor, who insisted she pay for destroying a planet, a one-panel throwaway in the story.
Brought back several years later by Kurt Busik & Butch Guice, using the conceit that Phoenix was a wholly separate entity from Jean Grey.

Etc etc etc.

Lots of different fingerprints are on that character, as there are on pretty much every character in mainstream superhero comics. Comic universes, and MMOs, are very much a collaborative effort. Personnel change, and how characters are handled change along with that.

Again, so what.
Did he sign a legally binding contract? Swear in a court of law?
No?
Then it doesn't mean much.

The game is vastly improved from where it was when I dropped out a year or so ago. The death of Statesman obviously isn't the driving force behind the flood of new content and structural changes, but as a part of the whole I wouldn't complain even if I didn't find the character to be an entirely derivative, highly objectionable plot contrivance.

So?

Emmert was a lying D-bag. If someone thought knocking off 'his' character would give him a twinge, more power to 'em.

If he wanted a say in the continuing story of the character, he shouldn't have let NC buy him out.
He didn't care what happened to Statesman after that point, so why should any of us?

Yes, only you are allowed to be condescending and patronizing. My apologies.

Well, as I said above, the fact that he was the character that was the in-game representation of the man who is now the head of the game's direct competitor. Removing him for that reason isn't "spite", it's just plain good business sense.

...as if he was so highly developed before it. Hell, he was barely in the game at all before it.

And thank Heaven for that. Bringing them back after you kill them is just so BS.


And you have no clue as to WHY it happened, as you already admitted:
Suspicion and opinion.....

Like I said ... This is ... was a friendly discussion.

It was you that brought in the 'assumption' nonsense.

I have an opinion only on what happened.

Putting that opinion out doesn't make me condescending or patronizing.

I'm finished with this.

Have a good day.

He was developed in the comics, and in the novels, guess what....he was jerk in those too.

I agree the story attached stunk. I heard what Matt said, and that is a LONG way from spite. Spite would be "Jack is an ***, so I am killing his characters." The first part is true imo, and how I do feel about Jack. However, he and Matt were friends outside of work. Also, looking at Jack's record of sticking his foot in his mouth, I think if he thought Statesman was killed out of spite, it would have come out by now.

It is what it is, a story, granted a bad one, but a story still. I can also see the wisdom in the statement of we are moving forward. Still, not very spiteful. I just can't see spite in it.

If anyone was screwed through that story it was us the players. Because we were forced to fail over and over and over. Which imo was what made it stink. We had no chance to save any of the above, because it had already been decided. If you are going to kill characters, don't put their deaths at my feet. Do it in a way where they do not die because we failed to save them.

To be honest, I am a bit dissatisfied with the game right now. It has nothing to do with the Paragon Store, and every thing to do with the current costume policy. It has to do with the devs not admitting that releasing the sash to one model only was a mistake, and fixing that mistake as fast as possible.

I am pretty annoyed that some of the best devs we have seen in years were moved to another project. I mean Second Measure, and Noble Savage. That really does stink of the past to me. If they were to move Synapse it may would be the straw for me, it may not would make me quit, but I sure would take a step back. I paid for a year, so I will be here till next Jan no matter what.

I have always seen the potential this game has. But it seems like one of the things I care most about (Costumes for MY characters) is not a priority any longer. Female models are the priority, which is granted someone's character, just not mine. The other thing I care about is scrappers, I guess I should be glad that they just exist in that vacuum of WAI. In the recent past I was not, but with so much seeming to change, I am glad that scrappers are what they are.

A bit of this may come from the fact that i23 has very little in it that excites me. Retro Sci-fi is not my thing, I am glad some like it, and I will purchase it, but it is just not exciting to me. Hybrid, and the Mecha armor are what I am really looking forward too in this next issue, and that is about it. Hybrid is being locked behind one trial of content, which I will have to run 3-4 times just to unlock the slot. That is 3-4 times on each of my 16 lvl 50 toons that are incarnates. I am thankful that is only 5.

I still don't think Statesman was killed out of spite. I also realize that I AM suffering from a bit of burn out. Which is why I am going to read a few books, and watch some movies before logging into the live server again.

what on earth are you talking about?

the game nearly received more impressive additions to the costume racks in the year I was away than in the previous six combined. During my first month of F2P I still spent $30 in the store, most of it on assorted costume bundles.

And other than the Carnival pack, I haven't noticed any gender bias in their selection of pieces.

You are correct, and it revolves more around the statement that Zwill continues to stand behind than what is happening in practice. That and one single costume item...the sash. Also you left out the conversions that were done from male to female, but if you were not here for that thread it is understandable, and it was done in a dev's free time, so not really part of the larger issue. So, it is a perception issue for me, which may in part be caused by my current level of burn out.

Like hell it was. Just because you couched it in friendly terms doesn't mean it wasn't condescending.

Oh, it doesn't count if you're insulting the DEVS.... Because, you know, they're not people so you can spit whatever hate and baseless accusations you want at them. Gotcha.

A jerk can still be an icon and an example if he does the right deeds, and a jerk can most definitely be a yardstick to compare ourselves against. Linkara once said that you should only kill a character if you can tell more stories with the character dead than you can with the character alive, and I don't believe this is the case with the Statesman. Killing him is just squandering all of the backstory and player reactions he has attained over the levels. Instead of making something out of these, be they positive or negative, we've just tossed them aside. And as much as we're pushing Positron and Not Penny Yin, they will simply never have the same kind of weight the Statesman did.

I mean, seriously. The guy took a nuke to the back of the head and walked it off. He took down a Rikti saucer by himself. Love him or hate him, he was THE premier hero of Primal Earth, and he would have done far more good as a supporting character in the Incarnate system than he will when he's dead. In death, the Statesman's about as meaningful as Atlas or Talos or Galaxy Girl. We all know they existed, but they don't really have any impact on our gameplay. The Statesman could have been used for so much more, instead he was discarded.

And what eats the most is the Statesman didn't die because it would make for a better story. He was killed because Jack Emmert made him. And don't get me started on Sister Psyche, who seems to have been killed so Penny Yin can replace her. I struggle to imagine a WORSE way to introduce a new character, to be honest.

I honestly think you should let up about that sash. It's one costume item, and it's not worth holding a grudge over.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

To be fair in the game he was hardly used and always got shown as a character that couldnt be beaten. To have a character like that in a game is bad in my opinion, yours might be different but to me its a bad case to have.

The only time in the whole history of the game that i remember Statesman having a part which made me like him was his death. Not because he died, but because it showed him as just another man under the pressure of being the hero of the world.

However his whole attitude of not trusting others to gain greater power [like himself] did make me hate the character

Finally there is one thing left to say, ingame i see very large majority of the people liking the story of the SSA however on the forum, its the other way around

OH WAIT, you're that guy.

Nevermind then.

Good luck with your persecution complex!

I am one of several guys who feel that way. I am just the most vocal at the moment.

I don't really disagree with any of that. I just don't think he was killed out of spite.


I think I need to let up in general, or just take a break for a bit. It has become a bit of a thorn in my heel, or that popcorn kernel that gets stuck in your teeth at the movies.

Going forward, I just have to hope things are handled better.

Statesman was an arbitrary figurehead for the game and is replacable by the simple decision to make someone else the figurehead for the game.

Who the figurehead is has zero impact on my enjoyment of the game.
It's a variation on my comment that RP must necessarily take a back seat to good game design- as long as they're getting the mechanics right, lore is largely irrelevant. They can make Fusionette the 'face of the game', provided I keep enjoying my in-game time.


Well, any other character can also be used for 'so much more'- there's absolutely nothing about Stateman that makes him irreplaceable, even if we're all pretending he'll actually stay dead when all genre conventions say otherwise.

Frankly, Atlas has more relevance to my gameplay than States ever did- that statue in AP is IMHO more of an iconic embodiment of what it means to be a superhero in Paragon City than anything they ever did with Statesman.

That and he offers one of the best accolades hero side.

So what you're saying is: Totally out of spite.

Oh great, now Sam's gonna be picketing the AE building demanding his resignation!

=P