The Shawarma Initiative *SPOILERS* AVENGERS DISCUSSION *SPOILERS*
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-05-04 24:12 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Invulnerability is a relative thing. Look at the original Superman vs. Hulk.....er sorry I meant DOOMSDAY fight. Both are kryptonian, both are invulnerable, but both have tremendous strength which pretty much cancelled out their invulnerability. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Goes to show that being "mostly" invulnerable can be REALLY inconvenient at times.
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Same with HULK vs THOR. Both have a level of invulnerability, both heal fast though I suspect Hulk's rage would amp his healing abilities to above THOR. But their immense strength should also make the invulnerability useless.
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Speaking of Thor's hammer, I still think it looks really lame. Wish they had gone with something cooler. The "brick on a stick" look doesn't really do Mjolnir justice, imho.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
I'm just glad the worthiness enchantment remains in the hammer, plus that scene was also a nice reminder to HULK fans that for all his brute strength that the hammer of THOR is not meant for him.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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I don't know. I was hoping to see Hulk rage out enough to lift it just like in Ultimate Avengers.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
I'm just glad the worthiness enchantment remains in the hammer, plus that scene was also a nice reminder to HULK fans that for all his brute strength that the hammer of THOR is not meant for him.
Granted HULK generally doesn't need a hammer or any other hand held weapons...... I lost track of all the easter eggs in the movie, but how cool was it that Stark was wearing a Black Sabbath t-shirt? Also I think I noticed twice in the movie when the arc reactor inside Stark wasn't glowing under the shirt. FX error? |
But when it didn't happen, I thought "Yeah, best to save that for #2."
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I'm not as familiar with the Ultimate version of THOR but wasn't he more tech based on Earth? I don't think Ultimate Thor's hammer has the same enchantments as regular MU THOR does in the comics or the movies. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't know. I was hoping to see Hulk rage out enough to lift it just like in Ultimate Avengers.
But when it didn't happen, I thought "Yeah, best to save that for #2." |
No matter how mad Hulk gets in the mainstream comics or movies, he should never be able to lift Mjolnir.
I'm hoping that the sequel though shows THOR separated from his hammer and can't summon it back to him due to being pummeled in battle and Captain America picks it up as he is worthy.
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Last I had heard the term was in the late 80s. Eddie Murphy used to use it in his stand up routines. He was pretty renowned for being quite foul mouthed (and funny). |
Originally Posted by Coin
Speaking as an English man, yeah, that word is considered a rude word, but honestly, I don't think I've ever heard anyone use it in 40 years on this planet
 I'd be amazed if anyone in the general public complains about it, tbh. |
Haven't really heard it anywhere else.
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Tony Stark: "But... But you're dead..."
Agent Coulson: "Shield has a great medical plan."
At least that's how I envision the explanation going if he is brought back.
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While I can appreciate the idea of Hulk having enough pure physical strength to lift the hammer...I definitely prefer the Hammer to be Thor's...and no one else's. I don't even care to see cap lift it.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't know. I was hoping to see Hulk rage out enough to lift it just like in Ultimate Avengers.
But when it didn't happen, I thought "Yeah, best to save that for #2." |
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Well the list of who can lift Mjolnir in the comics isn't that lengthy. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
While I can appreciate the idea of Hulk having enough pure physical strength to lift the hammer...I definitely prefer the Hammer to be Thor's...and no one else's. I don't even care to see cap lift it.
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1. Don Blake but then he is THOR or at least linked to him'
2. Beta Ray Bill
3. Dargo from the alternate future
4. Steve Rogers
5. Eric Masterson, not worthy at first but later proved himself worthy.
Steve Rogers has only wielded the hammer twice in the comics so it is not as if he walks up to THOR asks to borrow the hammer for a bit. But to me it makes sense that he can wield it.
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In the movie, Thor is wounded by Loki's dagger, and appears to be in pain for the rest of the battle. One imagines it was no ordinary dagger, but it's hard to imagine the Hulk being hurt like that - would only make him stronger anyway.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Invulnerability is a relative thing. Look at the original Superman vs. Hulk.....er sorry I meant DOOMSDAY fight. Both are kryptonian, both are invulnerable, but both have tremendous strength which pretty much cancelled out their invulnerability.
Same with HULK vs THOR. Both have a level of invulnerability, both heal fast though I suspect Hulk's rage would amp his healing abilities to above THOR. But their immense strength should also make the invulnerability useless. |
It is also implied that a very long drop could seriously endanger Thor or Loki, where as the Hulk quite easily survives just such a drop.
I would say that Asgardian invulnerability is significantly reduced in this movie series.
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I think what we have here is Wheldon subverting his own trope. He knows that he has a reputation for killing off popular characters, so he is only going to pretend this time, knowing that his reputation will make it convincing.|
Originally Posted by Caemgen
Tony Stark: "But... But you're dead..."
Agent Coulson: "Shield has a great medical plan." At least that's how I envision the explanation going if he is brought back. |
I think it's significant Coulson does not die on screen, we only hear it announced by Fury over the intercom. And he says he is "gone", which could be a euphemism for "dead", but could also be equivocation. And Fury is well established as a ruthless manipulative M-F.
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I think it's more Joss doing what he enjoys doing, sneaking in swearing in ways the censors can't deal with. Firefly loved doing that with constant swearing in Mandarin, I believe it was. Using the q-word was entirely consistent for Loki to say and it was great to have him use it in the venomous tone that he did. |
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Yeah, "isn't that a very rude word" passed though my mind too. That it got through probably says something about the education of the censors. At least the UK censors should have known. Although they might have felt it was obscure enough that children wouldn't notice, and therefore it didn't matter. Being London based, they tend to forget places like Wales exist.
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Proves to me that you can swear in a story and not be as crass as a lot of modern films are.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Actually, since 54% of the world's population (and *much* higher in the US) today follow a monotheistic faith wherein their one 'God' is perfectly transcendent and omnipotent, there'd be a whole lot of people who could respond as Cap did.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
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What's unrealistic is for the lack of faith and religious practices being portrayed in movies and comic books (Nightcrawler notwithstanding). Eighty percent of the population in the US practices a religion, and over 90% consider themselves 'spiritual'; so why so little in pop media?
Now, *how* Cap responded may sound corny and old fashioned. A more modern person would have responded to claims of divinity with a string of obscenities indicating a certain lack of faith.
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Just to pick up on some of the more recent thoughts and theories in this thread so far:
Asgardian invulnerability: They are significantly less powerful, as is just about everyone in the Marvel Movieverse, as it's being termed. And I can understand that, given the more outrageous and ridiculous power levels that get displayed in the comics universe. With the Hulk and Thor, that's about as powerful as you'd want to do in the movies, because then the 'logical' step viewers could then take would be Superman power levels. And even Superman movies have trouble dealing with that.
We are going cosmic in the next movie with Thanos most likely, but that leaves it open to involve the Surfer, depending on how the FF rights are sitting at the moment.
Agent Coulson: This has to be handled delicately, I think. If you bring him back, then you've undercut the dramatic reason for his death, which is the catalyst to unify the team. That being said, there's plenty of scenes up to and including him going to unlock the 'Phase 2' weaponry locker that could suggest an LMD. And I have no doubt the dialogue involving the LMD in the first place was deliberate. So long as you can do it in a way that won't insult or put off the audience from his loss, I think you can get away with it.
And his actor has a nicely laconic style that would just make it seem business as usual.
And yay, I've read Ruffalo has potentially signed for six appearances as Banner, though that just means two more Avengers movies, cameos in Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America, and a solo movie. This whole series can be elevating to one's career....
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Last I heard was that the FF movies are due to be rebooted, if this is the case then the Surfer rights won't be available. |
Originally Posted by SuperOz
We are going cosmic in the next movie with Thanos most likely, but that leaves it open to involve the Surfer, depending on how the FF rights are sitting at the moment. |
However the Surfer was THANOS' prime foe when he came back in the 90's.
For the movies, given that this is Thanos' first incarnation and that Surfer rights will likely be unavailable, then they will go back to Thanos' classic cosmic foes:
1. Drax the Destroyer
2. Adam Warlock (though he may need an origin movie due to the character being....complex)
3. Captain Mar-Vell
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And maybe Black Widow is Asatru and his comment was borderline religious persecution. A modern person might have been a little more sensitive to religious differences.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Actually, since 54% of the world's population (and *much* higher in the US) today follow a monotheistic faith wherein their one 'God' is perfectly transcendent and omnipotent, there'd be a whole lot of people who could respond as Cap did.
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Or be more focused on jumping out of an airplane.
Whichever the case, I found the comment appropriate for a 90 year old man. You know, the way you just smile and nod when a senior citizen makes a racist comment.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
They should introduce Ms. Marvel with the next movie, if only to make the Avengers less of a sausagefest. Give her the scarf thing that she got in Avengers: EMH. As she's got a cosmic origin, it'd be fairly easy to tie her into the Thanos arc.
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And I picture Charlize Theron being cast for her.
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Originally Posted by DLancer
They should introduce Ms. Marvel with the next movie, if only to make the Avengers less of a sausagefest. Give her the scarf thing that she got in Avengers: EMH. As she's got a cosmic origin, it'd be fairly easy to tie her into the Thanos arc.
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Before Ms. Marvel there was Captain Mar-Vell. Carol Danvers gained her powers when she was exposed to energy from a Kree device as Captain Mar-Vell rescued her. This made her part Kree and she gained her powers based on Mar-Vell's. |
Originally Posted by DLancer
They should introduce Ms. Marvel with the next movie, if only to make the Avengers less of a sausagefest. Give her the scarf thing that she got in Avengers: EMH. As she's got a cosmic origin, it'd be fairly easy to tie her into the Thanos arc.
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Also Mar-Vell is one of Thanos' main arch-enemies, to have Thanos and not Mar-Vell....no. Bring on the Captain!
Well the idea was to have more female cast members, though I suppose the two Marvels could come as a package deal.
Current Published Arcs
#1 "Too Drunk to be Alcoholic" Arc #48942
#2 "To Slay Sleeping Dragons" Arc #111486
#3 "Stop Calling Me"
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I'd expect them to bring in the Wasp before Ms. Marvel, also now that HULK's movie popularity is skyrocketing thanks to this, perhaps we will get......SHE-HULK?|
Originally Posted by DLancer
Well the idea was to have more female cast members, though I suppose the two Marvels could come as a package deal.
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Also I sadly expect the villain for the next HULK movie to be the Red Hulk......
I can see them waiting until the third Avengers film for the team to actually confront Thanos. It seemed to me like this first wave was merely an attempt to test Earth's defenses. The next move will be to wipe them out, which may involve Thanos sending Red Skull, who was similarly shunted out of space and time, to form the Masters of Evil and take on the Avengers. It's also possible that Thanos just wanted the Cosmic Cube back on Asgard because that's an enemy he knows and Thanos and the Masters of Evil could attack Asgard first and steal all the weapons in Odin's armory.
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I'm hoping that in A2, Cap just picks it up and hands it back to Thor. Thor can take it, then do a double take as Cap walks away, unaware of the true implications of what he just did.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
While I can appreciate the idea of Hulk having enough pure physical strength to lift the hammer...I definitely prefer the Hammer to be Thor's...and no one else's. I don't even care to see cap lift it.
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"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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Alright...that would actually be sweet.
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Originally Posted by Rabid_M
I'm hoping that in A2, Cap just picks it up and hands it back to Thor. Thor can take it, then do a double take as Cap walks away, unaware of the true implications of what he just did.
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The only problem with that is that the instant a worthy person touches the hammer they will receive the power of THOR. So Cap and THOR will definitely know what has happened.
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Originally Posted by Rabid_M
I'm hoping that in A2, Cap just picks it up and hands it back to Thor. Thor can take it, then do a double take as Cap walks away, unaware of the true implications of what he just did.
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Granted HULK generally doesn't need a hammer or any other hand held weapons......
I lost track of all the easter eggs in the movie, but how cool was it that Stark was wearing a Black Sabbath t-shirt?
Also I think I noticed twice in the movie when the arc reactor inside Stark wasn't glowing under the shirt. FX error?
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