All Things Character Art
By
4_Thirty_5,
Posted on: 2012-05-02 24:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Praetorian HUD energy shields would be awesome as an aura, using the same tech for blinking or vanishing they use for the victorian décor aura.
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Originally Posted by Wolvorine
SO much this! But only if they're done right. The propensity of the modelling to make female feet grotesquely elongated would ruin the entire effect.
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It's not just the feet. It's the entire costume, and it's an issue with a lot of the costumes. They're designed and created for the male model, then ported over to women/huge.
It often looks awful. That's because it was designed for males to look buff and muscular, and women wearing the same thing just looks far too big and clunky, and ends up looking ridiculous.
Dink did a fabulous job porting the jackets to females - am very impressed. And the last 2 (free for VIP) armors have looked flattering to females as well as males. I am hoping the design process is now including how costumes will look on female and huge models right at the very outset.
We can but hope!
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The people who designed it have been gone for years. It's unfair to blame people who weren't around at the time for mistakes their long-ago predecessors made, I think.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
I'm not sure how "digging around in 8 year old Fossil Code" is any different than "time and manpower"...
(And if it is fossil code, they've got no one to blame but themselves.) |
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It is the responsibility of the organization - irrespective of specific individuals - to encourage and enforce solid professional practices such as documenting, knowledge transfer, etc. so one's business is not left in position such as this later. This applies to programming, manufacturing, engineering, and all professions. Sure, there are gaps and difficulties in this practice, as with all processes, but for a sgnificant feature to fall by the wayside is an issue of the attention and management of the organization as much as the actions of an individual that moved on. It is simple finger pointing and a weak argument to hang a hat on, IMO.|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
The people who designed it have been gone for years. It's unfair to blame people who weren't around at the time for mistakes their long-ago predecessors made, I think.
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As a counter, there has been turn over in other key activities and no disruption.
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Their deflector gauntlets you mean ? Though i didn't see any full body version of that on the PPD.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Funny thing is that the Praetorian Police have something that would work great for this. But that is thier thing, so I doubt we ever get it.
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It only shows when they are hit. Which is ALSO a thing I'd like to have.
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I agree with this one for both male and female parts. Currently not a lot of selection if you go for the skirt/shorts/tucked in options.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Also, this. I think we can use a whole range of shorter boots that don't go up to the knee. More regular shoes like trainers, better sneakers, loafers and so forth, short boots and things like this. I'd really love to see a broader selection of this, because right now we're a city of knee-high boots.
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Although most female characters in modern comic books are "heroicly" proportioned to the point of defying gravity, the CoH chest slider *starts* at 36C, which is not realistic in terms of real-world analogues.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm curious as to realisticly proportioned as well. How is the minimum slider not realisticly proportioned? Not that I'm against slider going more to the left, I have a character who I want that option for. But am baffled by the wording.
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While guys may express puerile gaffaws, it is simply limiting to restrict the *minimum* bust size to 36C, which is already pretty prodigious. It limits the creativity and immersiveness of people who want characters with smaller busts and niche players who *try* to play children and/or non-human/non-mammalian females.
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May we *please* get earless character heads?
There is already a drop-down menu for the "Ear" category, yet the current setup creates a character head with default Human ears *and* then the chosen ear type, giving us feloids with Human ears on the sides of their heads *and* cat ears on top of their heads! 
AMERIKATT: Star of Stage, Screen, and Saturday morning cartoons! (Art by Psygon and ChristopherRobin)
"(Katt-Girl) obviously reads a lot of encyclopedias" -- Kiken
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I Support Nerd Flirting and Even More Nerd Flirting!
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Perhaps there's an optical illusion going on, but the minimum looks smaller to me than girls I've known who were C cups.|
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Although most female characters in modern comic books are "heroicly" proportioned to the point of defying gravity, the CoH chest slider *starts* at 36C, which is not realistic in terms of real-world analogues.
While guys may express puerile gaffaws, it is simply limiting to restrict the *minimum* bust size to 36C, which is already pretty prodigious. It limits the creativity and immersiveness of people who want characters with smaller busts and niche players who *try* to play children and/or non-human/non-mammalian females. |
Though, again, a smaller option would be good. I've ditched a couple of waifish and faerie concepts because I couldn't go small enough. I forget, is this the place where I guffaw?
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Most people I've talked with don't seem to think the minimum is 36C as you seem to think. Also, where you put the sliders has a bit of effect on the look of the size. However, some of that might be due to all the various monitors/graphic settings/ect in play. I know when I played CoH on a computer that wasn't my own, my main did not look the same at all.|
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Although most female characters in modern comic books are "heroicly" proportioned to the point of defying gravity, the CoH chest slider *starts* at 36C, which is not realistic in terms of real-world analogues.
While guys may express puerile gaffaws, it is simply limiting to restrict the *minimum* bust size to 36C, which is already pretty prodigious. It limits the creativity and immersiveness of people who want characters with smaller busts and niche players who *try* to play children and/or non-human/non-mammalian females. |
Though now that you said it, maybe they're trying to keep people from playing as children that young for some obvious reasons.
I was fully supporting it none the less, I'd make use of it as I've got plenty of characters who'd go lower, all i did was disagree with the use of "realistic" in your statement.
More so when C makes up the largest percentage (in america) today. Sooo...realistically, minimum slider is realistic as it's the average, which you were saying it wasn't.
But, again, does Dink even have a hand in that part of the character creator? I was under the impression that Dink was strictly involved with the outfits, not the body scales, and so the suggestion seems more apt for a different thread.
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There's nothing wrong with women looking big and clunky. This is half of what I've been suggesting for female costume designs since David started asking for ideas.
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Originally Posted by _eeek_
It often looks awful. That's because it was designed for males to look buff and muscular, and women wearing the same thing just looks far too big and clunky, and ends up looking ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And I've supported you on most of it. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There's nothing wrong with women looking big and clunky. This is half of what I've been suggesting for female costume designs since David started asking for ideas.
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This is NOT about wanting females to look "girlie". It's about being in scale with the form of the character. You CAN make a large female physique, and if that is in keeping with a character, by all means. And parts should be available for you to do so.
If, however, you want a character with a female form which falls within a normative female size range, the "big, clunky" pieces are out of scale. For a recent example, I love the shoulders and gloves from the Elemental Order set. But on an average sized female, they do not say "super" - they say "you can't possibly move in that, can you?" The boots, with sleeker female calves, have the effect of a child wearing dads' huge boots. Thus, an impression which is the exact opposite of "strong" or "buff" or "tough."
Why? Because they were designed to look good on a male, then later ported to the female. They were not designed for both sexes in the initial developmental phases. This isn't about "my" preferences, here. It's about scale and proportion.
My "costume request" is that the initial developmental phases of the design process consider how the pieces look on female and huge, not only the male.
If you are looking for someone to argue with about tough-looking female characters, and having pieces available to them, you are looking in the wrong place.
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Aside from Elemental Order (which I don't have access to) could you give me an example of pieces that look too big on women? I really can't say I've noticed anything of the sort, and I play more female characters than male ones. The only one I can really think of is the Retro Sci-Fi chest only showing up in Armoured tops, and possibly the Mecca Armour set being only Armoured. But aside from Elemental Order, what can I look at for reference?
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Originally Posted by _eeek_
If, however, you want a character with a female form which falls within a normative female size range, the "big, clunky" pieces are out of scale. For a recent example, I love the shoulders and gloves from the Elemental Order set. But on an average sized female, they do not say "super" - they say "you can't possibly move in that, can you?" The boots, with sleeker female calves, have the effect of a child wearing dads' huge boots. Thus, an impression which is the exact opposite of "strong" or "buff" or "tough."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Because the CC is a fairly stable system that seems fairly straight forward. It's simply a case of making the models and parts (time and manpower) and then slotting them into the interface (as far as I can tell)|
Originally Posted by Chyll
I'm not sure how "digging around in 8 year old Fossil Code" is any different than "time and manpower"...
(And if it is fossil code, they've got no one to blame but themselves.) |
The Base Editor is, by Dev accounts, a prehistoric mess of wild code and evil that could break as soon as someone breaths on it. And break stuff that has nothing to do with the Base Editor.
And they inherited it from Cryptic, so they aren't totally to blame
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Many of the old armor pieces look bad on females. Armor Plate, Steampunk (the old armor, not the new set), Tech Banded, Tech Crey, Tech Wired, Cyborg, and Medieval and Plant (bottoms only on those last two). I would argue that there are many others besides these which aren't terribly flattering, but that's a matter of taste, and not quite my point.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Aside from Elemental Order (which I don't have access to) could you give me an example of pieces that look too big on women? I really can't say I've noticed anything of the sort, and I play more female characters than male ones. The only one I can really think of is the Retro Sci-Fi chest only showing up in Armoured tops, and possibly the Mecca Armour set being only Armoured. But aside from Elemental Order, what can I look at for reference?
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These were designed with a male form in mind. For example, most of the above mentioned pieces are very thick around the thighs. That's where men tend to be slimmer than women, and bulking this area out conveys big, strong thigh muscles. On a female, where the thighs are already thicker, many of these old armor pieces make it look as though the woman would have to use bow-legged gait in order to walk at all.
The top pieces on the male give emphasis to the chest, making it look bigger, broader. In theory, this should work well with a curvy female chest, but in practice, it often looks like those chest elements are contorting the breast in a really wince-inducing fashion. (Armor Plate, several Tech ones, and the worst offender, the old Steampunk - yikes, OUCH!).
Because the gloves, shoulders and boots are all separate options, there is less difficulty with these parts of the costume creator - we can opt for smaller versions of some of the really massively large items, like Omega, or choose something else entirely. The difficulty, as we have both mentioned previously, is where there are few, or no, mid-sized options available. Often, it's the mid-sized option which is in proper scale for the female to look "bulked up," as opposed to "completely overwhelmed" by a piece.
In contrast, the new Defense armor (though the thigh-thickening bottoms sometimes cause me to tinker with the sliders, so I don't look disproportionately bottom-heavy) and the Olympian Guard look really good on the female form. Males also use them effectively and can also utilize the huge chest and shoulder pieces, and look entirely masculine and as massive as they like. Though I haven't really checked them out properly, the new Mecha armor (the basic pieces, anyway) seem to work fine with average female physique sizes.
This isn't about "my" taste. it's about balance and proportion. Many armor pieces just don't work for the female, as they do (rather effectively) for the male. There are many, many pieces (like the gorgeous Elemental Order pieces) which are entirely out of scale with the female frame.
NOTE: Gentlemen, I do not begrudge your bulky items, they look great on you! I hope you get as much of that stuff as you want!
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It sounds to me like you're saying the old Armoured top and bottom categories are not flattering for women (and they're not), but I should point out that all of the old Armoured textures use the exact same mesh. Techbot, Tech Wired, Tech Crey, Armour Plate, Medieval, all of those use the exact same top shape and the exact same bottom shape. Tech Crey has a unique Armoured bottom for the Male model, but not for Female and Huge, where it uses the same mesh as the rest, with some ugly texture misalignment as a result. I say this because you seem to imply the different textures have different shape problems, and they're really just different skins over the same body shape.|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
Many of the old armor pieces look bad on females. Armor Plate, Steampunk (the old armor, not the new set), Tech Banded, Tech Crey, Tech Wired, Cyborg, and Medieval and Plant (bottoms only on those last two). I would argue that there are many others besides these which aren't terribly flattering, but that's a matter of taste, and not quite my point.
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Bringing up Defence and Olympian Guard confuses me further, since I don't think those are even available for the Armoured top. For Tights, they simply conform to the basic Female model same as all Tights With Skin. Initially I thought you meant the way armoured textures wrap around the breasts and distort costume lines, but that's also the case with Defence and the Olympian Guard set, as well.
I'm not trying to argue here, I'm honestly trying to see what you mean. If you're just saying that the old Armoured chest is bad, then yeah it is. It's not just bad for women, it's bad for everybody. It has a crappy shape. Newer Armoured details use different body shapes. The Retro Sci-Fi top is Armoured, but it has its own shape, as do the Mecca Armour top and bottom. You're highly unlikely to see future Armoured pieces that still use the old shape unless those are direct ports of textures designed to be used for Tights, like the Valkyrie one.
And you mentioned boots and calves. Are you referring to the old big boots here? None of the old armour sets have boots which aren't usable with all of the old boot types, including Smooth and Stiletto. Well, Steampunk doesn't have boots at all and its only gloves are Large Robotc, but I happen to believe that Large Robotic are easily the coolest gloves in the game, and easily the least buggy large ones.
I'll see if I can't get pics to explain what I mean. If you have any, I'd like to see them, just so we're on the same page.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sam, I agree and disagree here. I agree that the pieces mentioned, the old skins, to me, don't look out of proportion... unless you go into the Armored category. Then everything looks weird. I, personally, can't bring myself to use it.
Now, specific pieces to me that look bad on women due to size/shape? The Valkyrie boots and shoulders 1 and 2 look WAY oversized. I try to put those on my 4'2" elf and wonder "can she even walk now?" Also some of the Praetorian shoulder pieces (resistance and something else?) that we got with Going Rogue have huge gaps on the shoulders unless the slider is maxed out.
The items are few, really.... and most I can work around. I just wish, really, that the Valkyrie boots were a bit better proportioned and the valkyrie shoulders didn't reach to the top of my head. o.O
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Here's what I mean:
This is Tech Crey, Tech Wired and Techbot on a base, unaltered female model, and they conform to the female form perfectly. Whether that form is realistic or desirable isn't really the issue, but that's the "default" look Paragon Studios picked for women, and when used as textures over Tights, these armour sets look appropriate. Considering these seem to have been painted over a flat chest, they fit the female chest shape without too much distortion.
These seem to work well to me. Are they the problem?
These are the Tights version of Defence plus the Armoured version of Tech Wired with Large boots and gloves, as well as the Armoured version of Steampunk with Large Robotic boots and gloves, plus the Tech Banded boots since that set has no boots to go with it.
The Defence set looks pretty much identical to the previous screenshot. If anything, the alternate-fabric areas on the sides of the torso seem distorted in how they "ride up" over the breasts, whereas it's clear they were designed for men to sit on the sides of their chest. I imagine having a thick seam like that over the breast might chafe.
The other two are obviously somewhat ungainly, but that has less to do with the pieces being designed for men and more to do with the fact that the Armoured top and bottom geo is crap. If anything, comparing the female Armoured top to the Male armoured top will yield almost no similarities. Women have a much narrower waistline, where their Armoured tops actually meld into their model's lower abdomen and upper... Buttocks, whereas for men there's a very obvious jutting fold like like they're wearing a baggy shirt, which clips with pretty much every belt I've tried to use it with.
Speaking about the bottoms specifically, I want to point out that of all the textures you can use the Armoured bottom with, the old ones work the best, as they're designed to fit the geo shape. Tech Wired, Steampunk, Armour Plate and Medieval look AMAZING with that geo. Techbot, Valkyrie, Tech Sleek and the newer ones look like crap because their textures are just split wherever the armour mesh happens to jut out.
The Steampunk gloves ARE horrible, there's no question about that, but they're horrible less because of their bulbous model and more because their texture is hideous. Extremely low resolution for a texture that's supposed to convey a lot of fine detailing just results is a fine mess, and there are few better examples of this than Steampunk. We either need higher-resolution textures that can show the texture's details, or otherwise we need textures that try to show fewer fine details and concentrate on the larger ones.
When it comes to the shape of the female bottom and the Large Robotic gloves, this is likely crossing over into personal opinion, but... I personally like them. The gloves are easily my favourite in the game and I've used them repeatedly. The pants... They're a bit weird, but I like their shape and I plan to use them more often. I'm not sure if they're specifically feminine, possibly because I'm not sure we have a static definition of the term, but they're feminine enough to my eye.
Again, that's not to argue, but more trying to figure out exactly what you're referring to, and if it's something I'm not seeing or if we just disagree on the matter of aesthetics.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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See, that's why I say it's probably just a case of opinion, because the Valkyrie shoulders and the Valkyrie boots are my favourite bits. I'm using them on a few of my female characters, and I quite literally bought the entire pack for those pieces specifically. I never really used the chest, the weapon and ESPECIALLY those horrible gloves with the ice cream scoops at the end.
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Originally Posted by Kheprera
The items are few, really.... and most I can work around. I just wish, really, that the Valkyrie boots were a bit better proportioned and the valkyrie shoulders didn't reach to the top of my head. o.O
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Symbols (like the Chest Details) that we can put on the backs of Jackets.
Loving the new Retro Sci-Fi Space and Halloween Helmets, but is it possible to allow us to choose different faces/heads?
Skull Helmet
Larger variety of tattoos
Can't speak for anyone else but I'd love to be able to use the Boxer Shorts with Monsterous Legs.
Expanded prosthetics for Legs/Boots like we have for Robot Arms. It's silly that the only options we have for legs is total replacement from the waist down, Monsterous Robot Feet, or a simple Wooden Peg Leg. It's about time we get some modern looking Right or Left Cybernetic/Robot Leg/Boot options for players that want a character with a single prosthetic leg.
A Parrot as a shoulder option.
Probably not possible but I'd like to be able to make the occasional "Fat" character.
I would like to see more chest details that are completed with a back detail. Valkyrie, Enforcer, Imperial Defense, Clock Work, and Vanguard all come to mind. They seem incomplete because the character's back is empty unless you place a cape or one of the new back details is placed there. Sadly we are still lite on back details at this point.
Where in comparison the Roman, Samurai, and Celestial seem more complete because they cover the back also. They make better looking upper body armor.
The Imperial Defense armor is the most frustrating because we see the complete version of that in the game all the time. The trainer in First Ward is wearing the complete version of it. I would like to see that version ported to the players.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
I thought of another thing I want.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/File:PPD_Unleashed.jpg
The PPD Unleashed model has epaulets on tights... So... why can't we? Why must we have Epauletts on Jackets, Robes or Trench Coats instead?
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
I heard there is a Cyberpunk costume set coming.
Also a Space pirate for the Super packs #2.
I guess those are two different costume sets... But not really sure.
Suggestions:
Body mesh and fishnets
I would love to have a new hi-res textured body mesh, also for fishnets... Those should been in the gunslinger or steampunk but was a missed oportunity so I hope we can have them now. The old options looks like body painting.
Leather trenchcoat
New version, more tight and included on jackets option so we can combine them with more items than the old trenchcoat
Leather plain bolero
Using the shape for the bolero, we can have a piece similar to a trenchcoat. Would love to have it also with a tattered option.
New scarf
I want a new scarf option for special capes (like Valkyrie, Origins...) without strips, with a tattered option and with hi-res textures.
Very long dreadlocks hairstyle
And for the tights sets, if the coming set only include patterns and textures for tights, please do another set for skin tights.
Costumes just require time and manpower.
Base stuff requires digging around in 8 year old Fossil Code that could break at a moments notice.
There's a reason Devs don't touch Bases much.
(And if it is fossil code, they've got no one to blame but themselves.)