What system would you use for a Pen and Paper CoH?
*In the (1989? version with the 1st printing's hardcover binding that fell apart the 2nd-3rd time you dropped it) = 4th Edition & they were the same system*
"Champions" was effectively just a setting for the Hero System, Fantasy Hero, Ninja Hero, Space-something, 3D (=Time Travel), Dark Champs =Vigilantes, Western Hero (/e shudder = I still have it, its was a waste of paper), I know there were a few more. I've got the more obscure ones =aka mostly useless (and some older 3rd Ed stuff) in a box.... somewhere?? Later on, you could get the 'plain vanilla' = "Hero System" with out the Champions or any particular "setting". I miss those days when we actually hung out in large groups = THAT was "grouping" or "teaming", w/ giant bags of D6's & even the 2-D paper double-sided "minis" on a hex map, and the Pizza,Sodas,Etc. And even the fairly complex the SPD/DEX (broken down into what segments you act in) as a chart on a white board or chalk board... "Okay if I start my 'pushed' Haymaker now, when does it land?" Roll 3D6 for OCV vs. DCV (or rarely Maybe ECV), Grab 2 hands full of (aka half a bag of) dice to roll, figure out the Body Damage (& usually ignore it) then add up the Stun... (Unless of core it's an Killing Attack or an RKA, then it can get really ugly with way fewer dice) - dang it, I'm old. ![]() *Edit=Note* FWIW, You're gonna NEED pencil and paper for this & preferably a calculator that easily handles fractions - that helps a TON! That without a doubt was the most "fun with math" I've ever had! |
If you are old then so am I! All of that brought back some of the best memories of my childhood. I got the 1989 Hard Back book for my 14th B-day, we had all been using my cousin's book for over a year and his was in a binder.
IMO the best supplement ever made for Hero system was "Ultimate Martial Artist" that was such a great book, and had more detail than my Real World "Martial Arts Encyclopedia"
I hope all these fond memories means this is going to be a good day.
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For me, it would either be using Champs 3rd ed (I have a fair amount of the books from that period) or a variant of Tri-Stat/BESM 3rd ed (with cranking to d10s instead of d6s).
Champions/Hero System is flexible enough, so long as the GM can keep things under control.
Tri-Stat/BESM is simple enough, yet has enough depth and fudging, that can allow all sorts of City-like fun.
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As an aside: While I have never put the work in to do it, I've always wanted to adapt the system used in the game "Qin" by Le 7e Cercle (ancient Chinese setting) to Superheroes. It has one of the most unique die mechanics I can remember encountering in a long time.
Tri-stat, if I feel evil. (Seriously - have you ever played Silver Age SEntinels tri-stat? At one point I was rolling something like 20 dice at once for an attack. At once. If that game - which led to my picking up COH in the first place - had gone on for a year, I'd probably be rolling cardboard boxes full of dice at the end of that year.)
I can say with all honesty, other than Friday Night Fire Fight from Cyberpunk, White Wolf had the worst combat system ever imo.
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I actually liked the White Wolf system. It was one of my favourites. It was logical to me and I liked how a character with sufficient skill could kill someone with, say, a knife. I never liked D+D's rules that allowed a high-level character to be stabbed 50 or 60 times and still be in perfect fighting condition until the last single hit point, which would finally kill them.
I have been reading DC Adventures, which is based on M+M and I kind of like it, but the lack of Hit Points seems a bit odd to me. The States will take some getting used to. Also, while I can see a decent game in there, it is not very well-presented and I find myself flipping back and forth through the book trying to piece everything together.
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Why would using the HERO system be a "weird twist" as a choice for a PnP version of this MMO? You do realize that the original premise of this game (like 10+ years ago when they were first designing it) was to effectively come up with a MMO version of Champions. In fact the beta versions of City of Heroes offered a much more free-form power system (along the lines of what HERO/Champions will give you) but after trying to make it work the game evolved to the AT/Powerset form it uses today.
Yes it is somewhat ironic that Champions Online didn't launch until years after City of Heroes did. But at the core of both of these games was the desire to make the HERO/Champions PnP game system work as functional MMOs. |
Why is it a weird twist? Because Cryptic purchased the entirety of the Hero System. They own it. Cryptic also owns a (not as successful as CoH) competitor MMO based on that Role Playing Game. Hence the weird twist.
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Huh.
I actually liked the White Wolf system. It was one of my favourites. It was logical to me and I liked how a character with sufficient skill could kill someone with, say, a knife. I never liked D+D's rules that allowed a high-level character to be stabbed 50 or 60 times and still be in perfect fighting condition until the last single hit point, which would finally kill them. |
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Fate. It's quick, easy to use and lets you hop right in after a simple character creation. Kinda like CoH
... Hit it ...
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I played Champions RPG when it was still mail order, way back when it was first introduced in 1981! Sad, really. It's still a great game today.
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Why is it a weird twist? Because Cryptic purchased the entirety of the Hero System. They own it. Cryptic also owns a (not as successful as CoH) competitor MMO based on that Role Playing Game. Hence the weird twist.
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Frankly anyone trying to use a non-HERO based PnP system seems like a "weird twist" to me.
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I actually liked the White Wolf system. It was one of my favourites. It was logical to me and I liked how a character with sufficient skill could kill someone with, say, a knife. I never liked D+D's rules that allowed a high-level character to be stabbed 50 or 60 times and still be in perfect fighting condition until the last single hit point, which would finally kill them.
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@Draeth Darkstar
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I'm actually aware of Cryptic's historical involvement in CoH, CO and the HERO system. That's precisely why I think that using the HERO system to implement a PnP version of CoH is not only NOT a "weird twist" but is actually the most appropriate gaming system possible. The roots of CoH can be directly traced back to the Champions/HERO system PnP games. Champions Online was in effect Cryptic's SECOND attempt to adapt the PnP game to the MMO setting (CoH was its first attempt).
Frankly anyone trying to use a non-HERO based PnP system seems like a "weird twist" to me. ![]() |
But it's ... ironic perhaps? ... that CoH would use the very same system for their hypothetical RPG that their direct (not really threatening) competitor also uses for their real-life RPG. Guess that's what I'm trying to say.
Is that a weird twist? My brain is telling me it is, but my brain also tells me that the 80s were the best decade ever.
American Dawg, Starblaze, Neanderthal Joe, Shining Dawn, Tokamak Dragon, Stinger Incarnate, Burning Tyger, Dover Tornado, Big Roach, Dark Paladin, Archmage Wylde, Kings Row Hornet, Prancing Deer
Avogadro, Science Lord
Edgar Nightcraft, Doc Cicada, Chupa Macabre, Dr Forchtenstein, Blood Shrew
*Edit=Note* FWIW, You're gonna NEED pencil and paper for this & preferably a calculator that easily handles fractions - that helps a TON! That without a doubt was the most "fun with math" I've ever had!
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But despite nostalgia I wouldn't advocate using Hero these days. In trying to have a crunchy answer for all occasions the rules have become too massive. The learning curve is just too steep for new players.
In the last few years, I've become enamored of the FATE system and its narrative focus. So I would advocate using Strange FATE, the FATE variant created for The Kerberos Club (FATE Edition).
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes#
But despite nostalgia I wouldn't advocate using Hero these days. In trying to have a crunchy answer for all occasions the rules have become too massive. The learning curve is just too steep for new players.
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I've had my players sometimes complain that even D&D (Or Pathfinder.) 3.5 is too crunchy.
Basically this is the problem you and your players are going to have to decide for yourselves. Do you want the huge flexibility but high crunch that GURPS or Hero offer you? Or do you want something with less flexibility but less mental overhead? I don't know, I guess the other extreme is something like Amber Diceless? Tough question.
I suppose if Paragon Studios was really going to branch into something like this (Which they probably won't given the slow downward spiral the table-top RPG game market seems to be in these days.) they'd probably make their own system or go with a smaller, newer PnP RPG company using some less well known system (To the irritation of grognards like me.).
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I've played older versions of Champions/Hero and GURPS Supers from 10-15 years ago and Savage Worlds/Necessary Evil more recently.
Champions is probably the most flexible and scales best to super heroes, but it's pretty complex to run. GURPS was a little coarser because it only had four stats, and it was linear instead of logarithmic for powers and didn't scale as well for titanic super hero battles. It's in the same ballpark of complexity as Champions. They both have many involved mechanics that provide hours and hours of enjoyment for rules lawyers.
Savage Worlds is a lot simpler to run. It has fewer options, but that's the tradeoff for ease of play. If you just like to play and don't mind spitballing things, Savage Worlds will suit you.
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You brought up Heroes U, the best thing about those books was the art. They had some really great art in them. |
You must not have gotten on that train as early as I did. I remember when 1s cancelled out successes, which often meant that rolling more dice (read: being more skilled) just meant that you could fail harder. I tend to dislike dice pool systems as a general rule anyway, but that was one of the worst offenders.
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Savage Worlds is a lot simpler to run. It has fewer options, but that's the tradeoff for ease of play. If you just like to play and don't mind spitballing things, Savage Worlds will suit you.
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For a simple supers game though I recommend BASH.
[Edit before I post up way too many of these things] Yes, I have been working on converting CoH NPCs/Enemies into M&M2E. I have a consistent and moderately reasonable method of determining a target PL for each of them, and use Paragonwiki and the old Prima Guide to work out powers and abilities.
Yell if you want more. |
If you've got more character sheets for things I'd enjoy seeing them as well either here or in a PM.
Statesman said let there be heroes, and there were heroes.
Lord Recluse said let there be villains, and there were villains.
NCsoft said let there be nothing, and there was nothing.
TSR's Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game, White Wolf's Aberrant, or Green Ronin's Mutants & Masterminds.
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When I say "rough" I do mean "rough". It's not an absolute 100% "this is what I would put into a game" version. I'm well aware that Drain (All Traits) is NASTY, but it was based on the consideration that Fatigue is actually an overpowered condition if applied as "damage" (it's almost impossible to recover from in combat, and even then you need to burn Hero Points to do it, and two stacks of it almost completely wipes a character out of the fight, permanently), but a Sapper's BFI is meant to nuke powers and abilities. This version does that, and does it well. Remember, Malta Sappers can be a death sentence to even a L50 character if not dealt with quickly and effectively - If you can come up with a better way to represent that than a truly evil Drain effect, be my guest. Bear in mind, it has to be capable of preventing any and all of the character's powers working for a short period of time. I agree that the stats are too high, and the skills are overboard. This was a "first pass" version to nail the powers down and my general process sets the skills and stats higher than they need to be, then works them down.
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Just a basic Nullify and a linked Fatigue (limited to 1 step only) would seriously do the trick, or Drain (Powers) (this is what I like about M&M, there's usually like ten ways to do something). With Slow Fade, it could keep them down for a brief period, but heroes need to be able to extra effort out of it (which mimics inspirations), and Fatigue is so damn easy to get out of my players usually don't even notice it. That Drain (all traits) power, as it stands, slaps a -10 to everything. Skills, saving throws, ability scores, powers, and feats. It turns off feats. If a hero has a 10 Con, failing that save kills them instantly.
And as for Ancestor Spirits, they were thrown in to the block to just have them there, without deep reference to their full powers and abilities - I was paying far more attention to the other Tsoo when writing them up for the adventure I was running, since those were the ones that would end up engaged in combat. |
Re: My main - he was originally for a PnP game, anyway, and some of his capabilities cannot be represented in CoH. Yes, L50 characters can be represented by PL10-12, and I'm not disputing that. He was originally written up in DC Heroes, then used in CoH - the version above is closer to his original conception than a straight port to M&M from CoH would allow. |
Anyway! Here's mine (also super rough!):
Summer Evening
![](http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/gaias_hiccup/summerevening.jpg)
Power Level: 10; Power Points Spent: 150/150
STR: +0 (10), DEX: +2 (14), CON: +1 (12), INT: +5 (20), WIS: +2 (14), CHA: -1 (8)
Tough: +1/+10, Fort: +3, Ref: +7, Will: +15
Skills: Acrobatics 8 (+10), Climb 5 (+5), Computers 1 (+6), Craft (chemical) 15 (+20), Craft (structural) 5 (+10), Disable Device 4 (+9), Investigate 5 (+10), Knowledge (earth sciences) 8 (+13), Knowledge (life sciences) 15 (+20), Knowledge (physical sciences) 5 (+10), Language 1 (+1), Notice 10 (+12), Perform (singing) 6 (+5)
Feats: Attack Specialization 3 (Construction Tools (Array 20)), Attractive 2 (+8), Dodge Focus 5, Inventor, Power Attack, Windracer
Powers:
Construction Tools (Array 20) (default power: snare)
. . Carrion Creepers (Summon 5) (Array; Duration (continuous), Horde; Progression, # Minions 3 (10 minions), Sacrifice)
. . Flytrap (Summon 10) (Array; Duration (continuous), Fanatical, Heroic; Action (full))
. . Mental Blast 10 (Array; DC 25)
. . Radiant Aura (Healing 10) (Array; DC 20; Burst Area (50 ft. radius - General), Selective Attack)
. . Radiation Infection (Drain 10) (Array; drains: single trait - toughness, DC 20; Burst Area (50 ft. radius - Targeted), Range (ranged), Selective Attack)
. . Roots (Snare 10) (Default; DC 20; Burst Area (50 ft. radius - General), Constricting)
. . Seeds of Confusion (Mind Control 10) (Array; DC 20; Cone Area (100 ft. cone - Targeted); One Command (Attack allies!), Range 2 (touch); Slow Fade (1 minute))
Hive Biosuit (Device 2) (Hard to lose)
. . Immunity 1 (suffocation: Drowning)
. . Protection 9 (+9 Toughness)
Telepathy 4 (DC 14, Adds: Communication 4, Mind Reading 4; Limited (Other Hivers Only))
. . Communication 4 (sense type: mental)
. . Mind Reading 4 (DC 14)
. . The Overhive Remembers (Variable 1) (Alternate; acquire: any one of (type) - skills, limited to: knowledge skills)
Attack Bonus: +4 (Ranged: +4, Melee: +4, Grapple: +4)
Attacks: Mental Blast 10 (DC Will 25), Mind Reading 4 (DC Will 14), Radiation Infection (Drain 10), +10 (DC Fort/Staged 20), Roots (Snare 10) (DC Ref/Staged 20), Seeds of Confusion (Mind Control 10), +10 (DC Will 20), Telepathy 4 (DC Will 14), Unarmed Attack, +4 (DC 15)
Defense: +10 (Flat-footed: +3), Knockback: -5
Initiative: +2
Languages: English, Hiver
Totals: Abilities 18 + Skills 22 (88 ranks) + Feats 13 + Powers 59 + Combat 18 + Saves 20 + Drawbacks 0 = 150
You must not have gotten on that train as early as I did. I remember when 1s cancelled out successes, which often meant that rolling more dice (read: being more skilled) just meant that you could fail harder. I tend to dislike dice pool systems as a general rule anyway, but that was one of the worst offenders.
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I will admit, the Botch rules did kind of... suck.
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I'd go with Mutant and Masterminds 2e.
I never tried the Hero system, but it is often mentioned in thread like this one. I should take a look at it. |
If you look closely at Mutants and Mastermind it becomes clear that is basically a d20 version of the hero/champions system. M&M would be my current choice for a superhero PnP game - I have been playing champions since I was in junior high school (what, 1980ish?) and I love it to pieces - but M&M streamlines it a lot, simplifies character creation considerably and takes the old, segment based combat system which could get really ugly and uses a much more simplified d20 style combat system.
It might be possible that the latest version of the hero system cleaned up the combat system - but I remember having to count out each segment of combat to allow for multiple characters at different speeds taking forever, where a M&M game I ran for my regular dungeons and dragons group went fairly smoothly, allowing for the fact that 1/2 my players wanted to created totally unreasonable characters (like the untouchable, unattackable ghost who could still attack in return :-).
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So then my idea to implement CoH with the Star Fleet Battles ruleset would be considered unconventional, I guess.
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I'd go with dead lands, because not enough pen and paper RPGs use a deck of cards.
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The big difference was the use of plug ins, and a mechanic called "Rule of X" that was a very good attempt at balance. In the end it just made the game more complicated.
Here is the Wiki link that explains it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzion
I am not sure that it really caught on with other groups, but our GM at the time helped write it. So, we used it.
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