What system would you use for a Pen and Paper CoH?
By
4_Thirty_5,
Posted on: 2012-05-02 24:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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We use the 3d6 variant from the Mastermind's Manual.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Any way. Yeah, D20 is easy to learn, teach, and use which makes Mutants and Masterminds such a great game. Also it is a Green Ronin game and they have made some of the best mest martial arts supplements around outside of Ultimate Martial Artist for Hero and Ninjas and Super Spies for Palladium games.
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Also, HeroLab lets brand new players make a character in ten minutes tops.
Also, Steve Kenson really does know his way around the d20 system, which is good, since its original designers don't even know how their own skill DC system works.
Heck, I am using it right now to run a game in which the PCs (a heavy metal wizard with a holy guitar, an office worker and his pet goldfish, and a car-stealing vampire) are traveling across a American-folklore-inspired post-apocalyptic landscape in a 1953 Chevy bel air with a sentient iPod dock battling the evil forces of The Man.
BESM d20 can do basically anything you can imagine with a little creativity.
Mutants and Masterminds is very, very good too.
Edit: I will argue against Storyteller for a superhero themed game. The mechanics are great when you're supposed to be concerned that any one hit might kill you outright (realistic for humans), but it suffers for that by having extremely binary combat between high-powered beings.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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Villains and Vigilantes.
No, I'm not serious, but no one's mentioned it yet.
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Originally Posted by TheSummerEvening
We use the 3d6 variant from the Mastermind's Manual.
Also, HeroLab lets brand new players make a character in ten minutes tops. Also, Steve Kenson really does know his way around the d20 system, which is good, since its original designers don't even know how their own skill DC system works. Heck, I am using it right now to run a game in which the PCs (a heavy metal wizard with a holy guitar, an office worker and his pet goldfish, and a car-stealing vampire) are traveling across a American-folklore-inspired post-apocalyptic landscape in a 1953 Chevy bel air with a sentient iPod dock battling the evil forces of The Man. |
We used d20 modern mixed with MM to do a Dresiden game. I really do like the simplicity of the d20 system. Not that it can't be complex it just starts more user friendly.
I grew up on Hero System Champions. My first was the Marvel game by TSR with the percentile dice, and the graph charts With shift x,y, and z powers. Then my cousin bought Hero system and introduced us to it. Man the book was a piece of crap. Within a year all our core books had fallen apart and been converted into 3 ring binders.
Wow, this conversation is really bringing a smile to my face.
Any way...It is funny you were either a Gurps fan or a Hero system fan, but never both. The like or dislike could cause some serious arguments too. I was a Hero system person, but did try gurps once or twice.
The common person is not going to break Hero too bad, and if you are using it to do CoX they will not break it at all because the powers will be premade. The people you need to watch out for in Hero system are people like Arcanaville.... They are the ones who begin to use power pools, and add power disadvantages that are hard to take advantage of. All of a sudden a 300 pt character looks like a Thousand point character. Getting shivers just thinking about her making a Hero system character....
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Someone mentioned VnV up thread. I have actually never played that, which is odd. We tended to run though games just to try them out. |
Originally Posted by Smersh
Villains and Vigilantes.
No, I'm not serious, but no one's mentioned it yet. |
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| Edit: I will argue against Storyteller for a superhero themed game. The mechanics are great when you're supposed to be concerned that any one hit might kill you outright (realistic for humans), but it suffers for that by having extremely binary combat between high-powered beings. |
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Well, all you really need to do is stat up the Freedom Phalanx, the Arachnos crew and some of the Praetorians and you have your benchmark characters for everyone else. Then you can happily ditch any of the original NPC's for either game. And finding benchmarks is easy. I could have the Phalanx done in half an hour, and that's saying a lot given that a lot of other systems would have you juggling points and trying to balance everything rather than have a game that captures the thing that means the most in superhero games: the atmosphere and flavor. |
Originally Posted by Haetron
Man, I wish I still had my aberrant book.
 I forget pretty much everything in it. And I dunno, the old school Marvel RPG is super popular, BUT, everytime I look at characters for it (or the old DC one) I go cross eyed. The Storyteller system is probably IMO the easiest Ive ever picked up and played BUT, also has the drawback of having the least fulfilling combat. |
I'm running a Marvel game set in the continuity of the current movies and it works fine. People who had never played it before were off and running inside an hour.
It just depends on what kind of game you want to run.
You can find PDF's of Aberrant at DriveThru, as I recall.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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That's pretty much why I like it. When I want complex and interesting mechanics, I play a video game. I prefer tabletop gaming to be mostly about the story, with mechanics that work easily and don't get in the way. M&M seems pretty streamlined.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Out of all of the table top super hero systems, I think it is also the simplest one.
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...but like I said, that's just my opinion from having read the rulebooks and trying to imagine what it would be like compared to the games I have played, I've never actually run or played in an M&M game. Maybe once I figure out how to get 36 hours in day, I'll put together a campaign...
My system of choice would be Mutants & Masterminds. I'd say it's overall the best superhero RPG I've come across. It's easy to pick up, quick to play, and offers top notch customisation. It's a d20 game, but it's also not exactly a d20 game.
I never cared for the HERO/Champions. I found it too complex to deal with in play.
Guardians of Order's Tri-Stat system (the basis of Big Eyes, Small Mouth) is okay for a fast and loose game. You can do a lot with it as long as you don't quibble too much over details.
Palladium's Heroes Unlimited is one of the worst systems I've ever had a great deal of fun playing.
White Wolf's Storyteller system sucked. They made some great game settings chock full of interesting lore, but their system was just bad. When Aeon (and later, Aberrant) came along, some changes were made that made the system suck less at combat, but it ultimately still wasn't very good.
The old DC Heroes game (by Mayfair, was it?) had an interesting system for building characters of disparate power level without stats getting too out of hand. But I found the system a bit awkward in play.
The later DC game that used WEG's D6 system was even worse to play.
Marvel has had a few RPGs. The one by TSR with the FASERIP ability scores could be fun to play with a great deal of modification and some structured, non-random character creation tacked on. The card-based game was kind of fun to play, but it had issues. And a later game that used bead/counters and no dice was just awful. Apparently there's a more recent game, but I have no experience with it.
World of Synnibarr had some very interesting ideas which could be refined into a superhero or DBZ game. But it would take a lot of refining.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
GURPS Supers or Old School Marvel Superheroes RPG. FASERIP FTW!
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Did anyone play Champions the precursor to Hero System?
My friends and I tried to play it back in 86 but kept getting bogged down in character creation 
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My understanding was that Champions *was* the Hero system. My first brush with it, IIRC, was Champions 3rd Edition. At that point, the only other system I'd seen that was so horribly bogged down by its own mechanics was Loremaster.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
Did anyone play Champions the precursor to Hero System?
My friends and I tried to play it back in 86 but kept getting bogged down in character creation . |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Champions and Hero system are, indeed, one and the same. (I believe it was somewhere around 4th or 5th edition when the system became fully generic with Champions becoming a setting.)
If you're looking for pick-up-and-play, Mutants & Masterminds (2 or 3E) can't be beaten. For accurate power representation, Hero system offers incredible flexibility. I've run both, and M&M is the one people are more likely to be familiar with.
And now for a few links:
My main character statted up in M&M
Some M&M stats for Clockwork
A rough version of a Blood Brother Hellion
A rough version of a Malta Sapper
Statblocks for various Tsoo
An unfinished attempt at Statesman
I could keep going...
[Edit before I post up way too many of these things] Yes, I have been working on converting CoH NPCs/Enemies into M&M2E. I have a consistent and moderately reasonable method of determining a target PL for each of them, and use Paragonwiki and the old Prima Guide to work out powers and abilities.
Yell if you want more.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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*In the (1989? version with the 1st printing's hardcover binding that fell apart the 2nd-3rd time you dropped it) = 4th Edition & they were the same system*|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
My understanding was that Champions *was* the Hero system. My first brush with it, IIRC, was Champions 3rd Edition. At that point, the only other system I'd seen that was so horribly bogged down by its own mechanics was Loremaster.
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"Champions" was effectively just a setting for the Hero System, Fantasy Hero, Ninja Hero, Space-something, 3D (=Time Travel), Dark Champs =Vigilantes, Western Hero (/e shudder = I still have it, its was a waste of paper), I know there were a few more. I've got the more obscure ones =aka mostly useless (and some older 3rd Ed stuff) in a box.... somewhere??
Later on, you could get the 'plain vanilla' = "Hero System" with out the Champions or any particular "setting".
I miss those days when we actually hung out in large groups = THAT was "grouping" or "teaming", w/ giant bags of D6's & even the 2-D paper double-sided "minis" on a hex map, and the Pizza,Sodas,Etc. And even the fairly complex the SPD/DEX (broken down into what segments you act in) as a chart on a white board or chalk board...
"Okay if I start my 'pushed' Haymaker now, when does it land?"
Roll 3D6 for OCV vs. DCV (or rarely Maybe ECV), Grab 2 hands full of (aka half a bag of) dice to roll, figure out the Body Damage (& usually ignore it) then add up the Stun... (Unless of core it's an Killing Attack or an RKA, then it can get really ugly with way fewer dice) - dang it, I'm old.
*sigh**Edit=Note* FWIW, You're gonna NEED pencil and paper for this & preferably a calculator that easily handles fractions - that helps a TON! That without a doubt was the most "fun with math" I've ever had!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.
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My favourite "super hero" system has to be Aberrant. But the system is very setting specific, so I wouldn't try to run that for anything non-Aberrant. Especially not City of Heroes.
For that, I think I'd go for Mutants and Masterminds 2e. It's not too mechanically heavy, and it can cover just about anything.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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I think you're overcompensating a little bit. Level 50 characters can easily be built at PL 10-12. Malta Sappers should probably just have a ranged Fatigue (and maybe add a low-ranked linked effect like Nullify to force power checks against Sustained powers), not Drain (All Traits) in their guns ("All Traits" means they suck all ability scores, skills, and saving throws, too). The ability scores are a bit high, as well. Skill modifiers are ridiculous. They're supposed to be highly trained but otherwise normal people with equipment to help compensate. This one sapper is basically a death sentence for even powerful heroes.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
Champions and Hero system are, indeed, one and the same. (I believe it was somewhere around 4th or 5th edition when the system became fully generic with Champions becoming a setting.)
If you're looking for pick-up-and-play, Mutants & Masterminds (2 or 3E) can't be beaten. For accurate power representation, Hero system offers incredible flexibility. I've run both, and M&M is the one people are more likely to be familiar with. And now for a few links: My main character statted up in M&M Some M&M stats for Clockwork A rough version of a Blood Brother Hellion A rough version of a Malta Sapper Statblocks for various Tsoo An unfinished attempt at Statesman I could keep going... [Edit before I post up way too many of these things] Yes, I have been working on converting CoH NPCs/Enemies into M&M2E. I have a consistent and moderately reasonable method of determining a target PL for each of them, and use Paragonwiki and the old Prima Guide to work out powers and abilities. Yell if you want more. |
...also why do Ancestor Spirits not have Protection out the yin-yang?
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When I say "rough" I do mean "rough". It's not an absolute 100% "this is what I would put into a game" version. I'm well aware that Drain (All Traits) is NASTY, but it was based on the consideration that Fatigue is actually an overpowered condition if applied as "damage" (it's almost impossible to recover from in combat, and even then you need to burn Hero Points to do it, and two stacks of it almost completely wipes a character out of the fight, permanently), but a Sapper's BFI is meant to nuke powers and abilities. This version does that, and does it well. Remember, Malta Sappers can be a death sentence to even a L50 character if not dealt with quickly and effectively - If you can come up with a better way to represent that than a truly evil Drain effect, be my guest. Bear in mind, it has to be capable of preventing any and all of the character's powers working for a short period of time. I agree that the stats are too high, and the skills are overboard. This was a "first pass" version to nail the powers down and my general process sets the skills and stats higher than they need to be, then works them down.|
Originally Posted by TheSummerEvening
I think you're overcompensating a little bit. Level 50 characters can easily be built at PL 10-12. Malta Sappers should probably just have a ranged Fatigue (and maybe add a low-ranked linked effect like Nullify to force power checks against Sustained powers), not Drain (All Traits) in their guns ("All Traits" means they suck all ability scores, skills, and saving throws, too). The ability scores are a bit high, as well. Skill modifiers are ridiculous. They're supposed to be highly trained but otherwise normal people with equipment to help compensate. This one sapper is basically a death sentence for even powerful heroes.
...also why do Ancestor Spirits not have Protection out the yin-yang? |
And as for Ancestor Spirits, they were thrown in to the block to just have them there, without deep reference to their full powers and abilities - I was paying far more attention to the other Tsoo when writing them up for the adventure I was running, since those were the ones that would end up engaged in combat.
Re: My main - he was originally for a PnP game, anyway, and some of his capabilities cannot be represented in CoH. Yes, L50 characters can be represented by PL10-12, and I'm not disputing that. He was originally written up in DC Heroes, then used in CoH - the version above is closer to his original conception than a straight port to M&M from CoH would allow.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Pretty much exactly like City of Heroes.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
HERO is just too broken...too many over the top powers (Intang comes to mind) and our group had to ban swaths of abilities to create a balanced game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Pretty much exactly like City of Heroes.
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S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Actually, I found full Marvel and DC conversions to the system online. As soon as you added in Adventure! (their pulp era prequel to the game) you were able to cover all the talented Natural heroes. |
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
My favourite "super hero" system has to be Aberrant. But the system is very setting specific, so I wouldn't try to run that for anything non-Aberrant. Especially not City of Heroes.
For that, I think I'd go for Mutants and Masterminds 2e. It's not too mechanically heavy, and it can cover just about anything. |
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
M.E.R.P., mostly for the hilarious critical miss descriptions...
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Go all-out and use Rolemaster or Spacemaster for the truly insane critical results.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
M.E.R.P., mostly for the hilarious critical miss descriptions...
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The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
I always liked Games Workshop's "Golden Heroes" for it's high level of randomness and complete absence of players-must-be-balanced mentality.
I believe it's now known as Squadron-Somethingorother.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Rolemaster was the most bogged down I had ever seen. It was like White Wolf though in that there was some very in depth lore, and more character classes than I had ever seen in a fantasy game. But then there was the whole Roll percentile on chart 1, this sends you to chart 24, 20 rolls of the dice later.... |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
My understanding was that Champions *was* the Hero system. My first brush with it, IIRC, was Champions 3rd Edition. At that point, the only other system I'd seen that was so horribly bogged down by its own mechanics was Loremaster.
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You brought up Heroes U, the best thing about those books was the art. They had some really great art in them.
For another D20 Super game I picked up "Vigilance: Absolute Power" a few years back. It was a nifty little system, a bit simpler than even M&M. It was made by Mystic Eye Games. One of the hundreds of companies that made D20 supplement games.
That is the great thing about the D20 system, if you know how to run/play one it is super easy to pick up another.
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The original system made by Eden Studios had some good ideas, but it had just as many problems. If you took the good ideas and created a new system around it, trying to keep the good design ideas from the MMO, you could get a great system.
We'll always have Paragon.