does your character move around when you fight?


Aggelakis

 

Posted

I move as little as possible.

I'll move to avoid patches. I'll move to line up cones. (I dislike Cones as a whole, particularly melee ones because they're short range, in addition to being generally very narrow. The narrower a cone is, the more I hate it.) I'll move to position PBAoEs for maximum effectiveness.

I see no point in jumping around in combat if not absolutely required, that just means I'm wasting time that could have been spent activating another power.


@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

 

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yep, try to keep an optimal amount of enemies in reange for the dragons tail sweep and get on the hard targets with eagle's claw and cobra strike. and now with vorpal being a cone, i have to move back from the good position for the sweep to maximize the cone, then back in(possibly with spring attack) to get back into position.

another guy i move a lot with is my ice/ice tank, space robot 5, i try to get as many guys around me and debuffed as possible with my damage/debuff auras before we settle into the ice slick /freezing aura stomp down.


 

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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
I love things like the pink patches in MoM: it forces you to move around and adapt.
I, on the other hand, find ground patches infinitely annoying. They don't force me to "adapt," they just never let me stand still, and I enjoy staying still. If I wanted a stressful game, I'd go play PvP. This was never more irritatingly obvious than when fighting the Talons of Vengeance and having every. Damn. Prophetess drop a ground patch that essentially punched through all my defences.

"Use TicTacs!" say people to me. Yeah, well you know what the tactic is against those? Run around like an idiot, have them drop their patches, THEN attack them. These things are on a decent recharge. However, when it comes to something like Admiral Stutter where the ******* airstrikes are CONSTANT and they require me to move CONSTANTLY... Yeah, that's not gonna' happen. In a game with root times of two, three seconds and more, in a game where you can't even CHASE enemies with cones, that just doesn't work. This isn't an action game. You can play it like one, but it not an action game by any stretch of the imagination.

Someone brought up Diablo 2, and this game is pretty much exactly like that - it's a click-n-kill fighter. I play it with 300ms of ping on a good day. Forcing me in situations where my reaction time has to be less than a second (hello, Eagle's Claw added critical chance!) does not enhance my enjoyment of it.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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So, what I hear you saying, Sam, is that you don't like adapting to changing situations... Because while you say it isn't adapting, it looks like you just don't like moving and so can't seem to call it what it is.

I do have to agree though that the Durray battle in Sutter took this idea to an absurd extreme by combining ridiculous numbers of Air Strikes with obnoxious amounts of teleportations.



 

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I move all the time, but as little as possible.

There's a thin line between getting more targets in a particular cone/aoe and losing damage over time due to too much time spent positioning (and sometimes, in certain situations, half a second can already be "too much time").


 

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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
So, what I hear you saying, Sam, is that you don't like adapting to changing situations... Because while you say it isn't adapting, it looks like you just don't like moving and so can't seem to call it what it is.
That's less about adapting to a changing situation and more adapting to quick-time events. Patch under your feet, move over there. Apocalypse beam, move over here. You've been tagged with this, do that. Enemy intangible, use that power. It's not a test of adaptation, it's a test of reaction time. You're not asked to figure out what to do, you're told what you need to do and you just need to time it right.

City of Heroes is not a game of action and reflexes, because THE GAME'S reaction time is around 4 to 5 seconds. You have ping, you have root, you have Arcana-time and only THEN do you have your own reaction time AND THEN you have ping and server time again when you try to react to what's on your screen. And the real kicker is that all of these things are thrown at you while you're trying to out-damage something's regeneration. Like it or not, the best way to out-damage something's regeneration in this game is to stand still and spam attacks. All these QTEs do is prevent you from doing so, and thus end up feeling like simple obstacles.

Now, I'm not against positioning in general, mind you. I'm playing an Electric Melee, which includes a cone, a targeted AoE and Chain Induction. Each of these requires different considerations as to how to get the best AoE coverage. However, unlike the "nagging wife" patches on the ground, these actually DO require me to react to a situation and try to figure out how best to use them, because there isn't just one very simple answer to problem.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
So, what I hear you saying, Sam, is that you don't like adapting to changing situations... Because while you say it isn't adapting, it looks like you just don't like moving and so can't seem to call it what it is.

I do have to agree though that the Durray battle in Sutter took this idea to an absurd extreme by combining ridiculous numbers of Air Strikes with obnoxious amounts of teleportations.
In game where rooting is the norm, and the game engine is NOT designed around 'moving combat', trying to shoehorn that in is often badly done and guaranteed to have enough cheap moments to hack people off.

When a patch fires off just as you've started a long animating attack, for example. Looking at you, Protean.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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"Eye of the Storm to res debuff Protean!"
*Protean starts to use his aoe power*
"KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AN!"

Because even if you get out of the way before it animates, it will still heal him, because you have to get out of the way before a certain part of the animation.

Of course, in my head, fights are much more dynamic, epic and fun.


 

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It's interesting that many of the "no" answers have come with relatively elaborate explanations of how CoH isn't an action game and shouldn't be played like one. Could have fooled me, that's pretty much why I've been playing it since launch.

Protean's wind-up is actually a good example of a situation where the game really isn't as mean as some people think it is. You get five seconds to dodge. I know because I've run that mission on teams and had ample time to realize someone isn't moving and shoot off a "GET OUT OF THE WAYYYYYY" before his siphon connects, making the futility of my concern all the more heartbreaking. The thing is, you not only get the big red warning that says "dodge, you crazy maniac!" but also the general awareness that he's going to be dropping that power on you at regular intervals.

I can't think of any combat powers that you'd want to be using in melee range of a quite dangerous AV that take more than 3.3 seconds to animate. "But that's bad enough," you say, "because if your 3.3 second attack is queued a split second after the warning comes up you're probably stuck!" Live and learn. So he hit you with the drain once. Next time wait until Protean himself has just cast a power and start your long animation attack then: he definitely won't be able to get the entirety of the drain off before you can move again and since you're stuck watching your own animation you'll easily notice the warning. With practice (and combat jumping) you can even fire a parting melee attack in the same motion with which you're leaping out of his reach.

Root periods in this game are super generous. The AI is beholden to them but realistically players are not if they know how not to be. I personally haven't played any other game that skews that balance so heavily toward the player.


 

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Protean's wind-up is actually a good example of a situation where the game really isn't as mean as some people think it is. You get five seconds to dodge.
You used to. You no longer do. His animation is five seconds long, yes, but you get tagged for the effect half-way through the animation. I've gotten tagged with this after just barely Whirling Hands. I've gotten tagged with this after the game lagged and refused to unque a power for me. Because again - I play with 300ms of ping time. I lose 300ms before I even see the warning, I lose 300ms before I can react and I lose whatever time it takes me to walk out of range. And that thing has a decent range. I've fought Protean multiple times. Even if I dodge around a corner, he still drains me unless I happen to be idle when it fires up and I run around a corner.

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
So he hit you with the drain once. Next time wait until Protean himself has just cast a power and start your long animation attack then: he definitely won't be able to get the entirety of the drain off before you can move again and since you're stuck watching your own animation you'll easily notice the warning.
Protean uses his Power Syphon every few minutes. I would like to use Total Focus and possibly even Energy Transfer more often than that. Furthermore, what you're suggesting is a MASSIVE decrease in DPS, which in turn gives him time to regenerate using more conventional means, and it gives him time to work through my inspiration inventory. Because Protean is not exactly a trivial elite boss even without his Power Syphon.

City of Heroes is a game whose combat system is built around DPS and DPA calculations and its encounters are designed around those statistics. Throwing in gimmicks only serves to ban the optimal way of approaching a situation, and what you're arguing is how this should be a good thing. If your argument is that that's the point, that breaking up the regular tank-and-spank is the point, then I disagree, because all it does is annoy.

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
With practice (and combat jumping) you can even fire a parting melee attack in the same motion with which you're leaping out of his reach.
Jousting is an unintended practice and the reason travel powers suppress in combat. It's also TERRIBLY inefficient from a DPS standpoint because you lose over half of your available uptime repositioning. That's a problem if you have trouble outdamaging Protean's regeneration before you run out of inspirations. If Protean were an easy fight with this being his only gimmick, then sure, why not? But I have to worry about actually taking down that elite boss without dying, and jumping all over the place makes this significantly harder.

It's twice as funny if you're a Mastermind, considering henchmen can sometimes take two, three seconds or more to even respond and even when they do their actions are not always predictable thanks to ****** pathfinding. And that's IF they're not locked into a long animation when you give the command. And that's IF they don't decide to ignore your orders like they're prone to do. And that's IF your pets are actually Mastermind pets you can control and not, say, the Dark Servant or Jack Frost or, heaven help you, the Fire Monkeys. You know, the things people tell me make Controllers from mediocre into great.

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Root periods in this game are super generous. The AI is beholden to them but realistically players are not if they know how not to be. I personally haven't played any other game that skews that balance so heavily toward the player.
So? That's why I'm here. I've played plenty of games that treated me with tough love and they don't get my money any more. This one treats me nice, so I keep playing it. The last thing I want is more reasons to be pissed off at my connection and the game's combat mechanic quirks.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I move around a lot. I think I have jousting-type activations down on my most favored characters, especially when it comes to breaking line of sight. When available, I also tend to move up and down a lot, going up out of range and dipping down to splat things.

The main exception to this has been my staff characters, I'm still learning the set, but there I times while the set is blurring through animations I'm pounding the keyboard and yelling at the computer, "Go go go go go go!" because I need to switch positions before releasing another cone attack.


 

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I tend to move when necessary depending on the character. If I have cone or knockback attacks I move a fair bit to leverage them to their fullest. Not all of my characters need to move that much though. In fact too much movement can be detrimental. For example my invuln tanker wants to keep her Invincibility saturated. If I move around too much I might reduce the number of mobs within its influence.


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Unless you're trying to line up a specific power to get the most out of it (and sometimes even then), running around mid-battle does more harm than good. When you're running, you're not using powers, and when you're not using powers, you're not winning the fight.

Run-and-gun play might make sense in a FPS where mobility equals survival. But in a game where every ability that contributes significantly to victory requires you to drop anchor, there's no reason, nor even an excuse, to move other than to keep a target in your effective range.


 

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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
So does your character move around in combat and do you care?
I'm a bit of a spaz in combat. Partly to line up cones, (even sands of Mu) partly to hit as many things with pbAoE's, partly to gain/lose aggro, partly to jump-cancel long animations, partly to just, well, move. Perhaps because I'm so used to the dominator playstyle (fire cones from outside combat, jump in the thick of things for AoE, fire blasts as jumping out to line up for the next cone) I just feel bored unless I'm giving chase or maneuvering to best effect.

*edit*
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Originally Posted by Black Zot View Post
But in a game where every ability that contributes significantly to victory requires you to drop anchor, there's no reason, nor even an excuse, to move other than to keep a target in your effective range.
Jump canceling and midair animations actually allow you to bypass the limitations of a stationary animation and allow the character to be in a better position so you can immediately follow one power into the next, in situations where you would usually have to take time to move between attacks. as mobs jostle with each other in crowded environments, mid-combat movement allows you to keep as many in range for your next power. Standing around means you are at the mercy of fickle AI that may run outside an AoE, run away, or suddenly move to the wrong side of an obstacle, thus not getting hurt. This is of course more likely to happen on large teams or when set for large spawn sizes. It's actually best to position for your next power, not your current one.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I've gotten tagged with this after just barely Whirling Hands. ... Furthermore, what you're suggesting is a MASSIVE decrease in DPS, which in turn gives him time to regenerate using more conventional means, and it gives him time to work through my inspiration inventory. Because Protean is not exactly a trivial elite boss even without his Power Syphon.
I would argue that you shouldn't even be using whirling hands against a single target because its DPA is atrocious. EM's best attacks are, unfortunately, energy punch and bone smasher, behind energy transfer. Forgoing total focus for the Protean fight not only keeps you from being siphoned, it barely affects your DPS. EBs are in the worst regen mod group besides minions so that really shouldn't be an issue compared to your own survival and preventing him from fully healing himself with his siphon.
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City of Heroes is a game whose combat system is built around DPS and DPA calculations and its encounters are designed around those statistics. Throwing in gimmicks only serves to ban the optimal way of approaching a situation, and what you're arguing is how this should be a good thing. If your argument is that that's the point, that breaking up the regular tank-and-spank is the point, then I disagree, because all it does is annoy.
This is going to shock you but we disagree on this. I love "gimmick fights" because if all you want is stationary AVs with hard hitting attacks you are well served by legacy content and even some new content. Don't think of Protean as a standard fight and half of your annoyance will evaporate. Think of that fight as a puzzle to be solved. In some sense it "devalues DPA" or whatever but it's very doable and the special rules are clearly articulated and easy to understand. If Arcanaville can beat Trapdoor with an unslotted emp/elec, a fight I would call pretty similar to Protean in most respects apart from its level, then the difficulty level is appropriate.
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Jousting is an unintended practice and the reason travel powers suppress in combat. It's also TERRIBLY inefficient from a DPS standpoint because you lose over half of your available uptime repositioning.
The reason I brought it up was as follows: since you only need to dodge away from Protean for the moment that his power fires, that's an excellent time to hit total focus while sailing away from him, causing his power to whiff, yours to hit, and by the time you're un-rooted it's a half-second trip back to melee range.
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This one treats me nice, so I keep playing it. The last thing I want is more reasons to be pissed off at my connection and the game's combat mechanic quirks.
I get the frustration but really, it's one fight in the entire game. If nothing else, why not recruit a helper or two? Or just fill your tray with a couple purples and a ton of reds and burn him down before he gets a chance to attempt a second drain. There are lots of ways to not be annoyed by Protean and other "non-traditional" encounters, they just require going ever so slightly out of your way. Hardly a gargantuan onus.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
And the real kicker is that all of these things are thrown at you while you're trying to out-damage something's regeneration. Like it or not, the best way to out-damage something's regeneration in this game is to stand still and spam attacks.
*shrugs*

Some people think the game should be a comic book simulate, or an action hero simulator or just a mix of action and stats. I mean, there are people who still expect the game to feel more 'comic booky' or 'anime-ish' or [insert genre with action in it]. Last time I experienced any of those things, the characters involved *moved*.

Out-damaging somethings regen is a flaw in the games design and it should be viewed as such, not the example of...

Yeah, I wish there were options so you didn't have to move around patches and stuff...like an inherent power called 'Block' that you can just toggle on and be immune to any area patches...but I don't think the game is worse for expecting the player to react to the environment...makes it feel more action oriented without needing to wallop something over the head...and it gives those travel abilities a work-out.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post

Protean uses his Power Syphon every few minutes. I would like to use Total Focus and possibly even Energy Transfer more often than that. Furthermore, what you're suggesting is a MASSIVE decrease in DPS, which in turn gives him time to regenerate using more conventional means, and it gives him time to work through my inspiration inventory. Because Protean is not exactly a trivial elite boss even without his Power Syphon.

City of Heroes is a game whose combat system is built around DPS and DPA calculations and its encounters are designed around those statistics. Throwing in gimmicks only serves to ban the optimal way of approaching a situation, and what you're arguing is how this should be a good thing. If your argument is that that's the point, that breaking up the regular tank-and-spank is the point, then I disagree, because all it does is annoy.
And this makes me smile.

When did you become concerned with DPS, Sam?

But if you were, you wouldn't really use long activating powers since most of those harm DPS anyway (with some exceptions). Heck, I'm usually a power-gamer when it comes to building a character but even I don't bother with DPS. All I know is, if I'm clicking powers and the enemy's HP isn't budging, I'm more likely than not going to defeat this foe without help or tools.


 

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Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
My Claws/SR Scrapper moves around very frequently in order to keep Shockwave properly positioned. To that end, I also keep Ninja Run on most of the time, which keeps her extra maneuverable.
Oh that's easy, just superglue his power cord to the wall and tape his cassette tray in place. ;-)


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Zot View Post
Unless you're trying to line up a specific power to get the most out of it (and sometimes even then), running around mid-battle does more harm than good. When you're running, you're not using powers, and when you're not using powers, you're not winning the fight.

Run-and-gun play might make sense in a FPS where mobility equals survival. But in a game where every ability that contributes significantly to victory requires you to drop anchor, there's no reason, nor even an excuse, to move other than to keep a target in your effective range.
Agreed, a melee toon that has sufficient def/resist should be able to stay planted square in position until the DPS = NPC dead. Or atleast until you run out of end and need to retreat (for the not so flimsy NPCs).


 

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I only really move around a lot on my squishies.


 

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Originally Posted by WanderingAries View Post
Agreed, a melee toon that has sufficient def/resist should be able to stay planted square in position until the DPS = NPC dead. Or atleast until you run out of end and need to retreat (for the not so flimsy NPCs).
Mob spread dictates that my melee toons need to move in order to leverage my aoe's. Against a hard target on teams, my scrappers still hop around trying to stay behind the target to avoid incoming cones. My tanks manouver the mob into a position so the team is at their back.

There is no need to worry about hopping around and not hitting your target, as your target is locked until it dies, or you switch the target. If we actually had to aim, I may concede the point.


 

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I use the ninja run in battle all the time, even if I'm a blaster, I'll shoot, then do a forward flip, shoot again..

Works well with melee fighters, especially dual blades, because that set is very graceful with the combo chains.

The only time I don't move around so much is when I'm on a really large team, and I can barely see what direction I'm standing in.


NCSOFT may take away our servers and beloved dev team, but they can't break our spirit and community. with all your power, NCSOFT, your victory will be bitter-sweet. I, personally will be there to laugh at you when you face-plant into the ground.

 

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My characters bounce around even when I'm not fighting. I'm usually on a Skype call with friends. The bounce is just OCD/ADD/ABC/123 energy.


 

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Depends on the character. My merc/pain has to move around a lot to heal, but my bot/thermal doesn't have to move as much. My Soldier Of Arachnos will move occasionally to line up a cone ((If everything didn't die in the first blitz)), or my widow a PBAoE, but my plant/kin gets to stand still against everything short of demons. The melee'ers typically get to stand still and trade blows, only moving to chase down runners or to position the occasional attack.

It also depends a lot on the enemy. Certain bosses require me to make sure my minions aren't in the line of fire or in range of an AoE on my masterminds. Unfortunately, as my main and obsession are all masterminds ((I have higher levels of every mastermind powerset now, working on my BM)) my minions are prone to coming down with "Brain dead" syndrom and not moving out of the way of dangerous things fast enough as I scream at them to move.


"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"

 

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Depends. If I'm on an energy blast or storm summoning character, I am the center of the universe, and it's all moving relative to me.

On a tank, I'm constantly shifting position a bit, which is how I can tell I definitely have aggro. If they don't pay attention to my every little movement, something's gone wrong. And I'm always trying to put myself on the other side of the group from the team, so the aoes hit them less.

My new dominator keeps darting in and out of melee range due to having pbaoe and cone attacks, and my scrappers go wherever they can do the most damage. Defenders go where they need to be to protect the team. Etc. Sometimes that means moving once per fight, sometimes it means moving a lot.


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