Edit: I was mistaken. Too much thread hopping.
@Bengal Fist - Freedom - Authority SG
Bengal Fist (SS/EA) - Thirt3en (Time/Elec) - Aussi (Elec/Shield) - Potamoi (Water/Time) - Parkr (Staff/Ela)
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That's nice and all, but it was stated that changing them to not be as good as they are now was explicitly something they are trying to do as part of all this.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
The store bought procs were fine as they were. Crafted IO procs could have simply been made to work the same. If there was a need for anything it would have been a floor so quick recharging powers weren't screwed.
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Yes, that means they decided that SBE/PPM procs were too good, and part of this whole process is basically to nerf them.
When a dev tells you that, you can try to stand your ground and "fight" them, or you can start trying to work with them to make the change they've already decided on as gentle as you can. Game theory says the smart money is on working with them, because the odds of working against them being successful is pretty small.
I'm not excited to lose the proc rates I get from my PPMs, all of which are ATEs. But I'll be completely honest - I could not believe they gave them to us in their current form. I didn't gripe about them or ask them to be changed. I used them with a smile and steeled myself for the possibility that they would change. And I did not spend money on PPM procs, since you can buy the ATE ones in-game.
There are things that have gone far, far longer without change and then been nerfed. Perma-T9s. Energy Transfer. Shield Charge. Blessing of the Zephyr. Compared to things like that, this is actually pretty fast turn-around by the powers team, though that's faint praise. But they didn't leave PPMs in their current form out long enough to meet my sense of "well, they actually seem OK with this." Unlike, say, BotZs.
Now, I do not think PS as a whole is handling the combination of the balance changes and fact that these are for-sale items in a customer-friendly way. That's not any one part of the PS team's fault, in my opinion. I wish they'd tweaked these sooner in the sense that we really did tell them so, at least as soon as we really figured out how PPMs worked. (They didn't really make the existence of PPM mechanics clear in betas, as far as I noticed. There was no patch note explaining it, so I don't think it got much testing.) They really got lots of attention when ATEs came out.
Edit: Sorry to respond after you said you were done. I had this open for a while while I was running trials.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You are wrong. Long before Synapse posted, many of us were pointing out that the new PPM mechanic was obviously broken. Broken in ways that are characteristic of the sorts of oversight that the CoH devs are a little vulnerable to. If you had told me that the CoH devs were going to invent a PPM model for procs, I would have told you that they would probably do something silly with it; for instance, they might forget to consider the impact of recharge rates, which can be a factor of three or more difference in performance. And they would probably do it in a way which resulted in some well-known procs being either way overpowered or way underpowered in the new format. Because you can basically predict this stuff. I really like the CoH dev team, but they do have their fairly consistent blind spots. (Just a reminder, devs: activation time is significant when balancing powers. Thank you.)|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
Arcanaville I have always respected you and enjoyed your posts. I will not argue with you. I'd lose if I tried, of that I am certain.
All I can say is, from observations, it seems to me that this topic simply ignored anyone who wanted things to stay as they were and slowly but surely started a "dialogue" as Synapse plied various formulas and people jumped in to be part of the "creative process" and suddenly people are "excited" about breaking something that works just fine as it is. At least that is how I see it. |
The moment they went live and we had our first "pay to win" thread about Performance Shifter, it was obvious that:
1. The PPM mechanic, as implemented, was broken.
2. If fixed, it would be a superior mechanic to the existing proc mechanic.
3. The most reasonable net outcome would be that IO procs would be converted to PPM (a long-overdue change), and SBE procs would be adjusted so they were in line with the roughly-similar net power of standard IOs after the adjustment.
You know what I didn't predict, and I am still not convinced is a good idea? The 90% proc rate cap. That's it. Everything else was obviously correct and I cannot imagine looking at the history of dev fixes to balance issues and not anticipating it.
This has nothing to do with Synapse's posts; this is stuff I coulda told you a month or two back.
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I got Feb 17...|
Originally Posted by seebs
This has nothing to do with Synapse's posts; this is stuff I coulda told you a month or two back.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
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IOW: Anyone who was reading the forums about how powerful the new PPMs were had selective eyesight that they didn't see all the posts from players saying this was obviously broken. And then selective deductive reasoning to not assume they'd get nerfed (or as known in the industry... 'fixed').
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
Well it's as I feared... the community has been wrangled into accepting a change to the system instead of simply asking for crafted procs to be made to work identically to store bought procs.
It's really interesting to see the community get railroaded as Synapse cherry picks things to reply to and continues throwing out little adjustments till he strikes the right chord to get enough voices to jump on board. I thought this sort maneuvering and trickery only happened in politics. The store bought procs were fine as they were. Crafted IO procs could have simply been made to work the same. If there was a need for anything it would have been a floor so quick recharging powers weren't screwed. Instead people who paid for store bought enhancements because they worked a certain way are having their purchased products "remotely firmwared" into something they would never have paid for with no mention at all of any sort of recourse for return/reimbursement. At least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing, without a doubt, that sales for SBE's will go down because of the change. |
You are very likely correct about sales for SBEs going down. They have lost several of their selling points, and are now in many real ways inferior to in game earned enhancements. You have to either store them in your email or on characters, you can't trade them or sell them on the paragon market, and you can't boost them with boosters. So of their three advantages, attuned, safe from nerfs, superior procs, two are gone. It would be a minor miracle if sales didn't take a hit. I am sure that developers were aware of this and considered it before making a change, so from their perspective it must be important enough to mandate it.
On the other hand if you compare how Synapse handled this to how Castle handled the BotZ nerf, Synapse stands head and shoulders above. Castle pretty much went with "Heres a crap sandwich and no you can't have mustard". What's more Castle was willing to launch that as a pearl harbor on everyone that wasn't in closed beta and their close friends that found out about the change. The only reason he talked to players about it at all was people leaked it and posted to the boards. When he did announce and respond to questions he had two answers No and Meaningless BS that was meant to let the gullible read what the wanted to into it. I remember very well his blowing off questions about the fact that people in closed beta had been able to liquidate their holdings in advance, and that with the way the set was used people would likely need several respecs to correct their builds.
This time around the change is far superior and while I don't doubt there are people that will be hit for performance with it, also there will be others that are going to have improvement and a larger number that won't have a noticeable change. From the way things look now, its going to hit just the fastest cycling powers, even that should be in the tolerable range.
That said, it would be nice if the new procs only considered the part of recharge from alphas that is subject to E.D. not the part that ignores E.D. . The recharge from alphas already gets lots of penalties.
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That would be spiffy.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That said, it would be nice if the new procs only considered the part of recharge from alphas that is subject to E.D. not the part that ignores E.D.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I won't argue the case with you since there's clearly no middle-ground to be had in your position, but I will say you have, at best, a very twisted sense of justice.|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
If you're upset because you paid real money so you could be overpowered, and don't let the weight of this miss you, I not only feel no mercy for you, I feel you deserve it.
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It's also becoming a pretty well-known fact that the Devs are selling power. Exhibit A.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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One could argue that Theft of Essence adds significantly to Dark Armor's playability. Not that DA is broken without it (leveled my SS/DA long before IOs) but that one proc does make a huge difference in survivability (via increased ability to spam DR) and QoL.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man I believe that if just one single 'proc' -- whether legacy or PPM -- is being relied upon by an AT to make a *significant* jump in 'power' or to make the AT 'playable'; then it is Overpowered. Quote:
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It's also the only proc that I would be genuinely upset about if it were significantly nerfed, simply for the QoL loss. I've always viewed it as Castle's sneaky underhanded means of buffing DA without actually buffing DA. After all, there's exactly one power in the game that gets any real use out of it, and it's a huge use. I doubt that was accidental.
I still don'r know how these PPMs will work in toggle & pulse powers. Are they based on a 10 second activation time & proc rate, the powers listed activation time and a 10 second proc rate (which would be borked) or the Activation Time for both?
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You are completely missing the point and this is a ridiculously comment and i would have thought someone like u should know better. People bought these procs because it was advertised to do one thing and now it does something completely different. Why didn't the Devs test there procs before making them available on the market and making people pay money for them? That is the point! Will people stop blaming those that have bought these procs because they wanted to make their character better. We have more spare money to spend live with it. |
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Yes, I am. Those numbers are still significantly greater than the old IOs you could aquire in-game. If you're upset because you paid real money so you could be overpowered, and don't let weight of this miss you, I not only feel no mercy for you, [U]I feel you deserve it.
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What's this "u deserve it" rubbish its not like we cheated or broke the rules. So if I buy a sandwich that says 100% chicken and after paying for it the cashier says actually it's only 50% chicken and sorry no refund. Do I "deserve it" because I was hungry? Some of u people have same strange of justice.
So Synapse how can u justify changing how procs work after so many people bought them believing they are better than ones u can get in game? U should give all of us players that have spent additional money on the market a refund or free paragon points to compensate!
Could we please have the Bait-and-switch / I-demand-a-refund / this-is-an-outrage conversation somewhere else and have the mechanics one here as requested? Synapse is a developer, he's not going to give you refunds or discuss them
Make a thread focused on that and see if you can get Black Pebble to comment there.
A healthy cash shop MMO gives advantages to those players willing to pay extra. It becomes pay to win when the players are pitted against one another in PvP or some other competitive situation. Since CoX has minimal direct competition between players, the pay to win argument falls flat on its face.
People buy SBEs to avoid crafting, for exemplaring or to get advantages from the different proc mechanics. The proc advantages are going out the window with no restitution given to those who paid for them. It doesn't seem like good business to jilt the customers willing to pay a bit more.
I'm fairly certain I won't be buying more SBEs in the future.
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Could we please get some more information on how the PPM procs will work in regards to powers that have both an activation period and a recharge time (i.e. rain of fire, sleet storm, etc.)? I'm unclear on whether the chance to fire will be based on the power's recharge time (and the proc will only be able to fire once), or on the activation time, or on the 10s that it's based on now (meaning the proc will have multiple chances to fire).
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Originally Posted by Synapse
Yes, proc chance on AoEs is per target.
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Hi!
Personally, i never liked the PPM mechanic because it is not clear how it works and it seems more like an auto-thing than a gamble.
I like gambling.
I like to see that the Enhancement i slot shows a 15% flat rate of causing negative damage upon every activation.
Before Procs even existed in CoH i had the habit to dismiss fast recharge but low dmg powers.
Bringing procs in the game made me reassess the utility of these fast-firing powers. Heck, i even slotted Brawl with 3 random DMG procs and liked it.
These days, my tanker has Shadow Punch at about 2 seconds recharge slotted with 4 procs ( Perfect Zinger Psi dmg , Mako Bite Lethal, Cloud Sense Negative dmg and Touch of Death Negative Dmg ).
Does that make me a min/maxer? I am just having fun and it makes the game less monoton and more random. Sometimes only 1 procs fires, then 3, then none, then 4! I find that amusing. It is like a slot machine.
PPM looks like an "average-always the same thing repeating over time" which i find quite boring.
Why not keeping both systems? Or why not making the SBE exactly the same as the crafted IOs? I vote for having flat rate in every procs randomly occuring upon activation.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Fixed-rate procs also average always the same thing. The only difference is that with fixed-rate procs, that same thing you always average to varies with power and power slotted recharge, and PPMs do not.|
Originally Posted by Celestial_Fury
PPM looks like an "average-always the same thing repeating over time" which i find quite boring.
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For you to dislike PPM, you need to dislike that the average varies based on where you slot it. You're still gambling. It's OK to dislike things for subjective reasons, but the aspect you subjectively dislike should actually exist.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
As a slight aside, while converting things to PPM, I hope they standardize Touch of Death's proc to equal the other 20% procs.
I've never understood why it was 15% instead of 20%. If it was because it was NE damage, that got broken when Cloud Senses proc came out.
Wow what a surprise, another stupid change going ahead by the devs despite OBVIOUS protests from the people keeping this game going. Please keep these changes away from PvP at least, one of my main toons is a fire/mm blaster who has 7 procs across 3 of my main attacks and the reason WHY IT WORKS in PvP is because of that.
Dumb game is game
dumb people are dumb
dumb.
@Psycho Jas
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Eh... You can slot ToD in any melee attack, while you have to have -toHit to slot Cloud Senses. |
Originally Posted by Caulderone
I've never understood why it was 15% instead of 20%. If it was because it was NE damage, that got broken when Cloud Senses proc came out.
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But I don't disagree with your larger point. There doesn't seem to be a clear reason why ToD's proc has a lower rate/chance, even though ToD can be slotted in any attack.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No reason I can think of to expect patch powers to work any differently than they do now - a chance to proc on activation, and every ten seconds thereafter. And I'm also pretty sure that the proc rate would be based on a 10 second cycle time.|
Originally Posted by firespray
Could we please get some more information on how the PPM procs will work in regards to powers that have both an activation period and a recharge time (i.e. rain of fire, sleet storm, etc.)? I'm unclear on whether the chance to fire will be based on the power's recharge time (and the proc will only be able to fire once), or on the activation time, or on the 10s that it's based on now (meaning the proc will have multiple chances to fire).
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Looks like a lot of those patches are going to suffer a bit compared to flat procs. (16%.) Rain of Fire, for instance, has a pretty sizable AoE mod with that 25 radius. (Radius 20 patches come out about even, and radius 15 ones gain a slight improvement. And they're all better than existing SBE procs would be thanks to the current model reducing the AoE mod and increasing the PPMs.)
I would expect all of this to hold for toggles as well.
-Morgan.
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There are a number of procs that I boggle at. This and Entropic Chaos are among them. I'll be taking a look at these and likely normalizing them to what you would expect them to be.
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Originally Posted by Caulderone
As a slight aside, while converting things to PPM, I hope they standardize Touch of Death's proc to equal the other 20% procs.
I've never understood why it was 15% instead of 20%. If it was because it was NE damage, that got broken when Cloud Senses proc came out. |
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Not that I don't get where you're likely going with this, but I should think by now you'd realize that what some expect is vastly different than what others do.
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Originally Posted by Synapse
There are a number of procs that I boggle at. This and Entropic Chaos are among them. I'll be taking a look at these and likely normalizing them to what you would expect them to be.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Warshades can use it too in human and dwarf form, though they don't likely need the +End proc. I prefer Touch of the Nictus anyway, for obvious reasons. |
Originally Posted by Greyhame
After all, there's exactly one power in the game that gets any real use out of it, and it's a huge use. I doubt that was accidental.
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Ooh, neat. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Synapse
There are a number of procs that I boggle at. This and Entropic Chaos are among them. I'll be taking a look at these and likely normalizing them to what you would expect them to be.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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SoulTouch, I am not really getting a universal feeling that this is bad, as with some other changes we can both probably name. In fact, I think most are generally supportive or neutral.|
Originally Posted by SoulTouch
Wow what a surprise, another stupid change going ahead by the devs despite OBVIOUS protests from the people keeping this game going. Please keep these changes away from PvP at least, one of my main toons is a fire/mm blaster who has 7 procs across 3 of my main attacks and the reason WHY IT WORKS in PvP is because of that.
Dumb game is game dumb people are dumb dumb. |
Have you done the math to see how your PvP attack chain/dps is affected at Synapse's current thoughts on floor and the 5% failure rate? (I am assuming you are leveraging the 100% chance in damage procs.)
Also, I'd love to see that build - it sounds fun, though I don't PvP.
(I'm admittedly a bit happy to have some idea of what's actually being planned on this issue. I can start making plans for the future this way.)
Also, you can't really call this an across-the-board nerf. There are cases where the current working model is an improvement over existing SBEs - and it's far from finalized. It's already significantly moderated from the original. I'm really not feeling like your interpretation of Synapse's actions matches the actual course of events. (Especially since it's been, what, two days since the original post? This is seriously early days for any sort of major game change.)
-Morgan.