Issue 2X: old powersets revamp?
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Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2012-04-11 09:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I think they tweak older sets when they have time between making new sets.
@Golden Girl
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Forcefield definitely needs something else, especially when something like Traps is ALWAYS a better choice compared to it since it provides healthy +def and a whole host of other things.
It is also the most boring set to play as a Mastermind (words of experience).
I do reckon they could change Instant Healing back to a toggle without it breaking the game as well.
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The problem with "tinkering" with sets like this is that you risk upsetting the people who actually like them the way they are now.|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
I know it's a big pile of work, but I think it's needed to give more difference and variety to the playerbase.
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For example just because you don't see many people playing Electrical Blast doesn't mean there isn't a significant percentage of Electrical Blast characters being played out there that you simply never run across in your personal experience. There's no law that says every powerset in the game must be as popular as every other - there will always be some sets that are less desirable no matter how much you try to dress them up.
Ultimately I have no problem with the Devs doing minor tweaks to powersets after long periods of analysis and datamining justify those changes. But based on the simple fact that this game has been firmly established for 8 years now I doubt we'll ever see the kinds of sweeping changes you're suggesting here.
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Well there's this new Absorb mechanic in beta that adds temporary HP that has to be whittled away before real damage is dealt. That would be a nice place to start. High +Def and a buffer of temporary HP the enemy has to break through. That would give FF its unique identity back.
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Originally Posted by Waylorn
Force Field - this is odd: it just adds def, some def and another bit of def to everyone that's already softcapped. Really useful just in low-mid lvls. Have no idea how to make it more yummy or something.
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Forgive me for being rude, but this is a stupid argument.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Ultimately I have no problem with the Devs doing minor tweaks to powersets after long periods of analysis and datamining justify those changes. But based on the simple fact that this game has been firmly established for 8 years now I doubt we'll ever see the kinds of sweeping changes you're suggesting here.
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I don't recall seeing anyone complain about the huge host of buffs and usability changes that Gravity Control or Energy Aura just got, for recent examples.
Nobody cried when Fiery Aura was made a good offensive armor choice again in Going Rogue, completely changing how two of its powers worked in the process.
Mechanically underperforming sets should absolutely be brought up to par, or at least as close to par as possible without creating a new FotM, even if it comes at the expense of the feel of one or two powers - because at the end of it all, the people who love those sets love them conceptually, and after a day adjusting to the changes, they'll be the happiest of all that their favorite set is now as good as the other options on the table.
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for forcefield i'd say up the dmg of force bolt, give repulsion field a little dmg too, and give force bubble a -to hit debuff or something O_O. then it would so be my favorite set evar.
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Forcefield definitely needs something else, especially when something like Traps is ALWAYS a better choice compared to it since it provides healthy +def and a whole host of other things.
It is also the most boring set to play as a Mastermind (words of experience). I do reckon they could change Instant Healing back to a toggle without it breaking the game as well. |
-Teamed with a FF/Energy Blast Defender last night. Getting to the defense softcap pre-IO's is lovely. Thing is that people fail to realize that Knockback is skill-intensive. Anyone using KB powers well can pin entire mobs down, making combat a breeze. It's just that I've seen few who do it well.
-Have a Katana/Regen Scrapper, umm...no. Regen does not need a buff.
-Have an Electric Blast Corruptor. Endurance Drain is a viable strategy.
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You can touch Katana over my twitching corpse...|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
Battle Axe/War Mace/Broad Sword/Katana - these stay on the same boat: they're not bad, they're simply...meh. New weapon sets just have more gimmicks, more interesting mechanics, more appeal than just whack-a-fu.
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A powerset which stacks -def on targets so you keep hitting, has two soft control powers (GD and SD) which used well and with a little bit of luck can juggle a boss, a huge width cone and a pbaoe, a self +def buff and good damage/recharge/accuracy numbers aren't good enough for you? o_O
Plus (still) some of the better looking attack animations in the game?
And frankly, gimmicks/mechanics on the new sets don't make me anything other than appreciative of Katana when I go back to my original character, a Katana/Regen scrapper.
DB combos are a source of irritation when you miss one attack, and having most of the secondary effects of the set being tied into the combos makes you less flexible if you want to use the secondary effects.
TW has the whole slow, quickquickquick, slow... cadence to adjust to, which can be annoying for some people.
Oh, and War Mace needs no looking at, either. It goes CRUNCH on my Brute very nicely, thank you very much
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The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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Gimmicks are not a good thing or a bad thing, they're just a thing. Gimmicks don't make a set better, just different. NOT having gimmicks in a game that seems to be increasingly more gimmick-centric, on the other hand, makes things different just the same.|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
Battle Axe/War Mace/Broad Sword/Katana - these stay on the same boat: they're not bad, they're simply...meh. New weapon sets just have more gimmicks, more interesting mechanics, more appeal than just whack-a-fu. Probably they just need something special, if not unique, to appeal peeps. Dual blades, for example, is not a wonderful set, but it feels unique in its way. Claws is another example of uniqueness in swift attacks and a nice mix of ranged and melee.
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Battle Axe, War Mace, Broadsword and Katana appeal to "peeps" well enough as it is. Some of us actually prefer the simpler, more straightforward melee combat of the past where I didn't have to be multi-tasking three different gimmicks at once, and all of those sets will be considerably less interesting if you tried to mess with them. The reason you see relatively fewer people use those sets is many of their animations are old and most of their effects are very underwhelming, not to mention how long it's been since some of those have gotten decent new weapons.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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* Electrical might use a bit of damage but really is good for its unique niche of sapping. There are people who love to do it. Having unique sets is good.
* Energy Blast is fine for soloing. You won't team with many people with it, because it is bad for teaming. But the set is fine, again a niche set.
* Ice Control has only one real problem and that is that too many immob powers break ice slick. It is a very good set for control otherwise.
* Force Field needs help because IO sets break half the game and FF is in the half that is broken to be useless. The real solution is a massive nerf to +def in IO sets, but that won't happen.
Battle Axe/War Mace/Broad Sword/Katana are all good sets. The overpowered sets may need to be nerfed, but the average sets should not be buffed to try to make them overpowered as well. There are 15 melee sets, they cannot all stand out as amazing sets.
Regeneration can't comment.
Ice Melee is a good set for defense but not many choose melee sets for defense and Katana is better. It probably needs something.
Ninja and Mercenaries need help.
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Wait, you are speaking about low/mid lvls, which as I stated is where actually FF still shines, AND a combination of 2 powersets that could use a smart mechanics around kb. FF alone is flat-out a one trick pony and that pony feels really sad in the high lvl content.|
Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
-Teamed with a FF/Energy Blast Defender last night. Getting to the defense softcap pre-IO's is lovely. Thing is that people fail to realize that Knockback is skill-intensive. Anyone using KB powers well can pin entire mobs down, making combat a breeze. It's just that I've seen few who do it well.
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Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
-Have a Katana/Regen Scrapper, umm...no. Regen does not need a buff.
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Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
-Have an Electric Blast Corruptor. Endurance Drain is a viable strategy.
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This comes up ALL the time with Dark Armor, especially from people who don't know how to play it.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The problem with "tinkering" with sets like this is that you risk upsetting the people who actually like them the way they are now.
For example just because you don't see many people playing Electrical Blast doesn't mean there isn't a significant percentage of Electrical Blast characters being played out there that you simply never run across in your personal experience. There's no law that says every powerset in the game must be as popular as every other - there will always be some sets that are less desirable no matter how much you try to dress them up. Ultimately I have no problem with the Devs doing minor tweaks to powersets after long periods of analysis and datamining justify those changes. But based on the simple fact that this game has been firmly established for 8 years now I doubt we'll ever see the kinds of sweeping changes you're suggesting here. |
You touch-a my favorite powersets, I break-a you face.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Dark armor is flat awesome. And unique.
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Not everyone at higher levels has softcapped defenses, and even if they did they'd need 59% defense for incarnate level content to be at the cap. You don't need a KB intensive primary/secondary to pair with Force Field to make Force Bubble good, just the positioning and know-how.|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
Wait, you are speaking about low/mid lvls, which as I stated is where actually FF still shines, AND a combination of 2 powersets that could use a smart mechanics around kb. FF alone is flat-out a one trick pony and that pony feels really sad in the high lvl content.
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Originally Posted by Waylorn
Care to elaborate?
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Originally Posted by Waylorn
It is, coupled with kinetics. All on its own it's kinda meh.
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Exactly, and there are folks like me who play it as if it were the almighty Willpower, garnering tells like "wtf ur dark armor?" and "dude how are you not dead".|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
Dark armor is flat awesome. And unique.
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That said, there are people who play the sets you mentioned for revamp much in the same way. I know an Elec/ Corr on Virtue who's an absolute wrecking machine. My childhood best friend plays /FF as if he was meant to do so from birth.
Now, if we keep talking on Mercs/Ninjas/Ice Melee, then yeah, much love needed in those areas.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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There's a difference between dusty, old, uninteresting sets and sets that are very nearly unusable such that they're simply not used at all (statistically speaking).|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Forgive me for being rude, but this is a stupid argument.
I don't recall seeing anyone complain about the huge host of buffs and usability changes that Gravity Control or Energy Aura just got, for recent examples. |
Forcefield is boring, but it works. Old Energy Aura didn't work.
Sets that are boring but work are best updated by judiciously adding in secondary effects that enhance but do not otherwise change the set's gameplay. It's a limited kind of updating, but it's the best way to make everyone happy. This was the case with the Assassin's Strike change, and from what I understand was mostly the case with the Grav Control changes. It's either that or the devs work with the community who plays that set to see if there's something they all agree they don't like, which can then be overhauled. That's rare and time-consuming, though.
Really, the more people who play a set, the less you can do to tweak it, and vice versa. When almost nobody is playing a set, you can do massive overhauls without upsetting anyone, but if there's a lot of people who like it, even a small tweak can raise a shitstorm.
Devs have access to those statistics, and if enough people like Energy Blast, then they're not going to pay too much attention to people who say Energy Blast needs an overhaul.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Here's the thing. If a set IS under preforming it does get revamped. It's one of the things the developers constantly keep an eye on, what sets are showing lowest use numbers, by how much. Whenever a set is buffed they also try to avoid breaking the theme of the set if possible.
I for one like Battle Axe just as it is. No gimmicks, relatively few outlandish animations. I like the appearance of the Minotaur Axe from Titan Weapons better than any of the Battle Axe options, but I tried TW and didn't like the slow, slow, fastfastfast nature of the set at all. Seemed to be effective, but variable speed attacks are a thing that, now that I have tried it, I don't enjoy. Yes, I'd rather play Battle Axe. I hit things with an axe, they take damage, sometimes they fall down, I'm happy.
Add a new powerset, everybody wins: even if I don't like it personally, there's more diversity and enthusiasm. Revamp an old powerset, the people who prefer the new way win, the people who don't prefer it lose. And many of those will be old vets that are here for the long haul.
So, fixing obvious inconsistencies like the really slow old Flares animation made sense, but adding gimmicks to old warhorse sets, to me, does not make sense.
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It's not just a matter of raw performance, otherwise we'll just play City of Warshades. Or City of Illusion/Radiation Controllers. It's more a matter of making a set more desiderable to play by adding something unique to it, if you ask me.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
Here's the thing. If a set IS under preforming it does get revamped. It's one of the things the developers constantly keep an eye on, what sets are showing lowest use numbers, by how much. Whenever a set is buffed they also try to avoid breaking the theme of the set if possible.
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After playing 50 lvls of a WM scrapper, I'm not going to ride the same road, more or less, with a BA scrapper. Just an example.
Mercs have needed help for a pretty long time. A group of street thugs apply leadership to themselves, but PROFESSIONAL MERCS don't? THAT STUFF IS BANANAS!
Mercs need to have some SWAT or Arachnos gadgetry added in to make them more dangerous. Just imagine if the Medic threw an Acid Grenade to eat RES and reduce the penalty of mercs being so Lethal-based. The grandfather rule means they wouldn't remove a terrible power like Serum (although making it an real Build-Up type power would make it more impressive--Smoke Flash is super nifty giving your pet that window of automatic critical hits), although it might be funny if somehow they remade it to make the henchman it was applied disappear and get replaced by a HULKED OUT Supatroll (totally NOT the Hulk) temporary minion that either dies FREEEMing or reverts back to normal/dies at the end of the buff.
Oh, and don't forget about Blaster Devices. That set has aged awfully. Targeting Drone could stand to have a bit of +DMG added (not as much as a build up since it's constant, of course) and one of those wish list things was re-making Time Bomb to be something you could lay and then get a TRIGGER button to detonate on your command. Heck, why make it completely lethal? Have it open up a Cryo/Incendiary/Chemical bomb on a trigger using Dual Pistol code! Devices has Caltrops and the toe trip mine and that's all it has going for it, really. That giving the blaster's Cloaking Device a crit when Hidden never panned out.
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Making it more desirable FOR YOU to play when you're not currently playing it, perhaps. It makes it considerably LESS desirable for me to play, and I am indeed playing those sets. I have multiple Axe characters, multiple Mace characters, more Broadsword characters than I can count and Samuel Tow himself uses a Katana. Ruining my sets so that they might possibly appeal to a theoretical unproven audience who needs gimmicks in order to play something strikes me as robbing Jack to pay Jill, and that's a best case scenario.|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
It's more a matter of making a set more desiderable to play by adding something unique to it, if you ask me.
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I am not in the slightest interested in having sets I've always enjoyed changed from under me. Improve them visually, by all means. Then I can choose which new additions to keep and which to leave behind. But don't mess with set balance for the sake of messing with set balance. You're not improving the sets. You're making them different, and a fair few people like Sword/Axe/Mace/Katana exactly where they are in terms of feel.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm pretty sure I didn't mention raw performance let me check....nope only mentioned lowest use.
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Originally Posted by Waylorn
It's not just a matter of raw performance, otherwise we'll just play City of Warshades. Or City of Illusion/Radiation Controllers. It's more a matter of making a set more desiderable to play by adding something unique to it, if you ask me.
After playing 50 lvls of a WM scrapper, I'm not going to ride the same road, more or less, with a BA scrapper. Just an example. |
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Mercs can use help, but all they really need is stat tweaks. Serum is a terrible power not because it's bad, but because it's a mediocre power on a 1000s recharge time, which makes it practically useless. The Spec Ops control effects are also problematic not because they're bad, but because players have no control over them, thus the Spec Ops usually waste them. Messing with the duration and recharge on those powers should help significantly.|
Originally Posted by Iannis
Mercs have needed help for a pretty long time. A group of street thugs apply leadership to themselves, but PROFESSIONAL MERCS don't? THAT STUFF IS BANANAS!
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The Medic is constantly dying because, near as I can tell, the wires in his brain are crossed. He's trying to heal an ally, so his brain orders him to move into melee range of that target. However, because he has targeted an enemy, he will move within melee range of said enemy and use Aid Other from 50 feet away, since apparently the power is not melee-ranged at all. Fixing his AI would help.
Still, Mercs DID get a pretty significant performance boost a couple of years ago. It used to be that Spec Ops would only ever use their snipes if they were at extreme range, but never at anything closer, and the Commando would refuse to fire Long Range Missile Rocket in the same way. A change made them willing to use all of their powers at all ranges (within reason), giving Spec Ops their snipe back, which is a decent attack, and giving the Commando his LRM Rocket back, which is a decent if fairly rare AoE.
I don't believe Mercs need any new gimmicks, they just need for their current ones to actually work.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Things Zortel in her own opinion thinks could do with changes:
Snipe Attacks for Blasters/Corruptors/Defenders/Patron Pools
Crashing Nukes for the above AT's
Regeneration: The Rez power (perhaps resetting integration/reconstruction's recharge, or providing a lingering and decreasing to 0% regen buff) ,Instant Healing (Maybe looking at the duration or recharge time), Resilience (Adding Slow Res)
HEATS: Mez protection outside of dwarf/light form, high levels of knockback, endurance cost of attack abilities.
Masterminds: High Endurance cost of attack powers, possibly boosting the attack powers to help pets (like Demon's -res, Beast's movement debuffs)
Stone Armour: Lack of being able to jump just enough to clear a very tiny ledge or floor pipe that otherwise means having to retoggle even though it'd be easy to lift a leg that high to step onto/over it
Trick Arrow: More debuffs/more powerful debuffs
Electric Blast: Something to alleviate the lack of a 'tier 3' ST blast (Power Burst/Blaze/Bitter Ice Blast et al), maybe some changes to Voltaic Sentinel (perma but attackable?)
Ice Manipulation: Ice Patch a la Ice Control power (placeable at a distance), perhaps give Shiver damage or more debuffs, rework Frozen Aura.
Energy Melee: Give Stun the Clobber/Cobra Strike Treatment and work on the damage of the other powers.
Also, tighten up the graphics on level 3.
I know is like beating on a dead horse, but I really LOVE to see some serious revamps to old powersets that are flat obsolete or just do not play well with the modern CoH gameplay. I'd be extremely happy to have a whole issue dedicated instead of adding new content, zones, areas and such.
Imho these sets need to be partially reworked if not totally revamped:
Electrical Blast and Energy Blast - hardly seeing anyone playing these.
Ice Control - needs some love, back to the times it was awesomesauce, now it just sits at the bottom of the pile. Sad.
Force Field - this is odd: it just adds def, some def and another bit of def to everyone that's already softcapped. Really useful just in low-mid lvls. Have no idea how to make it more yummy or something.
Battle Axe/War Mace/Broad Sword/Katana - these stay on the same boat: they're not bad, they're simply...meh. New weapon sets just have more gimmicks, more interesting mechanics, more appeal than just whack-a-fu. Probably they just need something special, if not unique, to appeal peeps. Dual blades, for example, is not a wonderful set, but it feels unique in its way. Claws is another example of uniqueness in swift attacks and a nice mix of ranged and melee.
Regeneration - good for pvp. whait, who said lolpvp? This one lost its uniqueness with the, albeit needed, old big nerf. Playing it nowadays in normal/high content is just asking for a hard beating. Needs something more than a bit of s/l res.
Ice Melee - Uhm. Well, I just never ever played this one, so it may be an hidden treasure, lol. Seriously, a bit of touch may be needed, especially in the DPS department.
Ninja and Mercenaries - Need some work to be on par with other MM sets. Some survivability tool for ninjas and attack cycles revamp, especially for the tier2 henchies, for mercs. Oh, and shorten the laughable recharge on serum, at least.
I know it's a big pile of work, but I think it's needed to give more difference and variety to the playerbase.